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Old 21st April 2012, 09:40   #256
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Default Re: My hunt for the right 4x4 is on again.

The previous thread highlights my search for used Monteros (and S class too) and invariably I found that used vehicles are a gamble I do not want to take in India. Odometer fraud is widespread, really good clean cars with trustworthy low mileage are priced so high that for me it just makes sense to buy new. I got the impression that in India, really good value used vehicles are sold off in family and friends networks and rarely appear on the open market. It seems that cars don't often appear on the open market until they've had the last bit of value sucked out of them.

Though I guess before handing over my money, I should atleast look to see if I find a used pajero that gives me confidence.
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Old 21st April 2012, 09:44   #257
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Default Re: My hunt for the right 4x4 is on again.

Toyota's are in fact white goods on wheels and Fortuner is no exception. You may like to go for your 1st love but will always find it missing the complete package. The Fortuner is 'almost' there though what you comment on the off-road suspension is somewhat true, but it's not that far off from the SFX as you think. I see no way, the Jeep's coming in for less than 40L. The Sport's off-road ride is slightly worse than the Fortuner and experts may agree with me. Finally the SFX's just too dated to be in honest competition, unless all rationality is set aside for lust.

So, the emotional detach may be less, the luxury factor may be minimalistic, but right now, Fortuner seems the right choice... My choice - the 4x4 with VSC in Blue Mettalic.
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Old 21st April 2012, 10:30   #258
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Default Re: My hunt for the right 4x4 is on again.

Thanks for all the comments so far. Coincidentally, I just came across a 9/2010 copy of Autocar India in my stuff and find that it has an article where they took nine 4x4s off roading (Land Cruiser, Prado, Montero, Pajero SFX, Fortuner, Endeavour, Xenon, Safari, and Scorpio). The comments about my two main contenders:

Pajero SFX
Quote:
The Pajero feels like a rally car. In fact, its the most involving and the most fun car here to drive off-road. Its steering is full of feel, and the big glass area makes it easy to position the wheels exactly where you want them on narrow trail. If it just had a bit more power, it would have been the favorite. We love the Super Select 4wd system that seems to find traction where other cars spin wheels and give up. Seriously, it feels unstoppable, and more importantly, unbreakable.


Fortuner

Quote:
The Fortuner really does feel like it can harm the rocks it is driving over. WIth its brilliant ground clearance, huge on//off road tyres and the ability to plough through anything, there's little chance you will get stuck. It has the grunt to pull through the soft stuff, the aproach and departure angles that keep its chin and tail off the ground, and the best part is that it does all this with non-chalance.
so in summary, the pajero is the most fun, capable and enjoyable off road (the main reason I am buying), but the fortuner will also go almost anywhere a Pajero will.

Last edited by Harbir : 21st April 2012 at 10:38.
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Old 21st April 2012, 12:48   #259
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Default Re: My hunt for the right 4x4 is on again.

Will the vehicle be used regularly after the planned Ladakh trip?

Moving out of the emotional bit and amongst the choices put by you I would pick the Fortuner. Even though I don't like the looks of the refreshed one and feel that Toyota has skimmed on features for the money its charging, my reasons for selection would be:
  1. Powerful diesel
  2. No non-sense vehicle and keep going on and on
  3. Higher resale
  4. Will have better service network than Mitsu
  5. More advanced than the Pajero SFX
However if visit to far-off places is the reason that vehicle is being bought for, then you'll need to stick to M&M, TATA or MUL just because of their service reach. You can look at the Scorpio LX 4X4 which has all the essentials. If that's too barebone for you then you can try the GV but somehow I wouldn't be very comfortable driving it in far-off places when I know that the local MUL ASC may not have any spares for it.

Or why not try the Scorpio Getaway 4X4 that I have. No body roll compared to the Scorpio. Longer wheel base and higher ground clearance. In cabin is also good especially the second row is much more spacious than the normal Scorp.

However the main reason for not suggesting Xenon is the crappy second row seating and leg space.

Happy shopping!

Cheers
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Old 21st April 2012, 13:18   #260
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Default Re: My hunt for the right 4x4 is on again.

The Pajero is too old a vehicle to buy new, if you do find one in the used market then go for that. The Fortuner seems like a better bet for you, and if you get an aftermarket suspension for it, you can sort out some of the ride issues too. There is a TEIN suspension available with the EDFC controller so you can adjust the stiffness from inside the car.
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Old 21st April 2012, 14:27   #261
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Default Re: My hunt for the right 4x4 is on again.

The Fortuer is brilliant for highway driving e.g. cruising, overtaking etc. I assume you don't have mountains next door, and would need to drive a few hundred kms to get into offroading nirvana territory.

So get a Fortuner and upgrade the shocks/GC (OME etc. - can even go for a lift) and put a ARB bullguard (approach angle improves significantly with an aftermarket bullguard). Offroadability improved, ride improved while retaining the good qualities of a Fortuner. Can fit 2-4 nice LF spots on your bullguard to make the night daytime. All set for conquering any Himalayan trail.

Same holds true for SPort, but that is a few lakhs more expensive. If you use those lakhs to upgrade the Fortuner, you will end up with a very capable vehicle. Check the South African 4X4 forums for what they do with the Fortuner.

Last edited by nilanjanray : 21st April 2012 at 14:30.
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Old 21st April 2012, 14:55   #262
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Default Re: My hunt for the right 4x4 is on again.

The suggestions in this thread seems tilting towards the T fort. I suggest:

1. If you find a clean Mitsu, go for it.

2. Set emotions aside and TD the T fort. If you find the classic looks better and are not keen about the VSC and other gizmos, get one. You will end up saving some money, with which you can upgrade the beast.

3. Buy a black Scorp LX 4*4. Save loads of cash and shape the vehicle as you wish. ARB bumpers, Snorkel, Winch, Blasting ICE and many more. Suggestions given by MileCruncher needs a serious thought.

Last edited by Blow Horn Ok : 21st April 2012 at 14:57.
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Old 21st April 2012, 15:07   #263
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Default Re: My hunt for the right 4x4 is on again.

upgrades to the suspension are ABSOLUTELY OUT. The vehicle has to be satisfactory right out of the box. if I later decide to do something to the suspension to improve further, thats possible, but if I have to rely on modifications to bring it up to my expectation of a stock vehicle, well, thats just not going to happen.

I have no interest in the fortuner's highway performance because the speed limits here are 90km/h, they are enforced, and I obey them diligently.

tata and mahindra are not in consideration.


none of this means that the pajero is a foregone conclusion. I intend to think very hard and very seriously about this, making sure that I do the right thing, not make a purely emotional decision

Last edited by Harbir : 21st April 2012 at 15:15.
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Old 21st April 2012, 15:50   #264
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Just look at this BEAST and tell me you don't want one
Just to add a little wood to the fire. I know you won't actually buy it because of the ride though. Damn leaf springs. However, it is a lot better since I got the Ironman springs and shocks.
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Old 21st April 2012, 17:13   #265
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Default Re: My hunt for the right 4x4 is on again.

what tyres are those?
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Old 21st April 2012, 17:24   #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harbir
what tyres are those?
Maxxis bighorn 31x10.5x15s on black steel rims 15x8j -23 mm offset. Turned out to be even epic of a combo as I'd hoped
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Old 21st April 2012, 17:36   #267
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Default Re: My hunt for the right 4x4 is on again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endeavour333 View Post
Maxxis bighorn 31x10.5x15s on black steel rims 15x8j -23 mm offset. Turned out to be even epic of a combo as I'd hoped
So then we see you at MCUBE this year then this would be a go anywhere vehicle.
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Old 21st April 2012, 18:38   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V-16

So then we see you at MCUBE this year then this would be a go anywhere vehicle.
Hah not quite. But someday it might be. M cube will be in tight forest trails and the long wheel base Endeavour will not like that much. The paint will get scratched too. I'd love to go if I would t have those problems though.
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Old 21st April 2012, 20:46   #269
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Default Re: New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?

I am wondering why no one is recommending the up coming Renault Duster 4x4?

IMO after seeing lot of you tube videos about the off road capabilities i am quite confident it can tackle all kinds of road conditions for a affordable price. Members do you agree on this or is it lacking any thing for an all out expedition to ladakh bcz i am planning to buy the 4x4 for an north east tour including Himalayan adventure in future. Is it possible with this vehicle?

Can anyone compare the Duster 4x4 with Pajero,Fortuner,& Endeavour.

Last edited by sathyaprakash : 21st April 2012 at 20:49.
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Old 22nd April 2012, 06:56   #270
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Default Re: New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endeavour333 View Post
Maxxis bighorn 31x10.5x15s on black steel rims 15x8j -23 mm offset. Turned out to be even epic of a combo as I'd hoped
Thank you. not too far off from stock then. The Fortuner OE size translates to 30.5x10.5-17 and the pajero stock size to 29.5 x 10.5 - 15.

I am looking at mud tyres for whatever I will buy, and if its pajero, I will likely stick with the stock size to begin with, mostly because the tyre I want is available in India officially only in the fortuner and Pajero OE sizes (and one other, safari, I think).

In response to the general question, I am really in a dilemma now. WHile I was all set on the pajero, I decided to make a rational decision and reconsider the fortuner. That the pajero is dated makes no difference to me personally. But it does make a difference to resale values. The last time we had this conversation, there was a strong pro-pajero contingent which has not spoken up this time. It makes me think that with the imminent demise of the SFX and the arrival of the pajero sport has mostly silenced even the small pro-SFX minority. That in itself does not bother me because I have always done what I wanted without regard to generally prevailing wisdom.

And it has cost me heavily in resale values as I have found that going your own way means when it comes time to sell, you must either find the one or two other people who want the same thing I do, or I swallow the cost of my insistence on doing things my own way. The previous two examples were the 330i and my LSE. The BMW I ordered built without leather, automatic or sunroof but with navigation and Sport package specification (very pricey options.) The dealer warned me and when I would not listen, he demanded a non-refundable deposit should I change my mind because he didn't want to get stuck with a car in that specification. Sure enough, when it came time to sell, when customer's would hear "no sunroof" they'd walk away. The car eventually sold very cheaply. It happened again with my Lotus Sport Elise. The Elise is already a nearly intolerably extreme car and only the most hard core people buy it. In 2006, they created a track special and made 50 of them. This car made the the regular elise feel like a lexus. But when I drove, it was the one I had to have even though it was 40% more expensive. And sure enough, when it came time to sell, there was no interest because even amongst the most extreme enthusiasts, this car was just too much. It wasn't good for anything except the race track and country blasts on the weekend (and not necessarily better than a regular elise for the latter). I could find no buyers for it, but then I ran into some luck. Two buyers wanted exactly this car at the same time and got into a bidding war with each other, and in the end, I managed to recover a good price. but it almost didn't happen.

These experiences make me for once pause and reconsider my willful rejection of public preference and very seriously consider whether I want to risk losing lacs in resale compared to the fortuner.

So although the "modern-ness" of the fortuner is lost on me, the resale value is not.

and of course I am nervous about the lack of space in the pajero.

So, at the risk of repeating myself, I can summarize it as thus:

1. Fortuner for its better engine, better resale, much more comfortable interior, and wider service network

2. Pajero for its undoubted superiority (in my judgment) at the task that I want to buy a 4x4 vehicle for.

I still have a few weeks to make the decision while the money is arranged.......

Last edited by Harbir : 22nd April 2012 at 06:57.
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