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Old 8th August 2011, 18:20   #91
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Default Re: New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?

hi harbir, since u're sticking to the 20+ budget, do try out the x-trail and Santa fe (since bookings are now open) as well. Regarding x-trail, I think it is comparable to the Pajero in nimbleness like just the other day I was travelling in a really narrow road in a 800 and an x-trail in front of me driven by a very young chap who must have got his license just recently for he took the wrong diversion and immidiately tried to correct it by reversing into a a smaller service lane and turning right. He was not able to carry it off due to his inexperience and my blocking his way straight back, but still the fact that he felt he could even think of pulling it off left me somewhat impressed that a driver even felt in such a way that he could manage such a stunt on such a narrow road in an SUV. It seems the x-trail is tighter than the likes of Endeavour, Fortuner etc and comparable to Pajero in that regard.
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Old 8th August 2011, 18:57   #92
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Default Re: New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?

The X-Trail is a very different animal. Feels more car like to me. Parts are expensive as is the overall maintainence. Sometimes parts are ordered from Japan & the car stays put at the workshop. First hand experience of a friend.




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Old 8th August 2011, 19:39   #93
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Default Re: New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?

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Originally Posted by lurker View Post
hi harbir, since u're sticking to the 20+ budget, do try out the x-trail and Santa fe (since bookings are now open) as well. Regarding x-trail, I think it is comparable to the Pajero in nimbleness like just the other day I was travelling in a really narrow road in a 800 and an x-trail in front of me driven by a very young chap who must have got his license just recently for he took the wrong diversion and immidiately tried to correct it by reversing into a a smaller service lane and turning right. He was not able to carry it off due to his inexperience and my blocking his way straight back, but still the fact that he felt he could even think of pulling it off left me somewhat impressed that a driver even felt in such a way that he could manage such a stunt on such a narrow road in an SUV. It seems the x-trail is tighter than the likes of Endeavour, Fortuner etc and comparable to Pajero in that regard.
I don't think you should even compare the X-Trail with Pajero. The old Pajero is a mountain goat whereas the X-Trail is a Soccer Mommy's soft roader. I hope you get my drift
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Old 8th August 2011, 19:44   #94
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Default Re: New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?

Harbir,

I think you should go for brand new Pajero rather than pre owned Montero.

First of all, old is not gold always, so you wouldnt get full peace of mind.

2ndly, Montero spare parts and complete maintenance is much much higher. never owned one but one of my neighbours who had a white Montero in 2008/09 always complained about high maintenence.

so take your pick.
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Old 8th August 2011, 21:11   #95
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Default Re: New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?

Its rather a dilemma, isn't it? There seems no ideal choice

1.Pajero - just Brilliant off road, a sports car compared to the Montero (in terms of flingability), built in India so parts availability at dealers should be adequate, but only adequate on road, poor ergonomics and seating position, weak if adequate engine, very poor middle row seat, but will be new which will mean no previous hidden problems lurking anywhere.

2. Used Montero manual - An off roader that drives like a luxury car around town and is like a luxury car inside. Too wide I think for tight situations, and probably not going to actually fun to drive off road like a pajero would be, but should be comfortable and easy to drive off road. Negatives, it'll be used, no warranty, not a mountain goat like the pajero, probably not as bulletproof as the pajero, parts will be expensive and will slow in availability.

3. Fortuner - modern attributes for the price of a vintage machine, which means power, refinement, modern interior and ergonomics at the same price as the dated pajero. Plus the toyota service network. On the negative side, long wait times, supposedly less brilliant off road, competence more like a tough pick up truck than a purpose built overlander, and an image that I absolutely do not care for.

funny. the original question I asked, "New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?" is no closer to being answered :-)

but you guys have been party to me trying to answer that question and I am sure it will conclude at some stage soon!

This can go two ways. on one hand we are motivated to buy a vehicle soon so it can be broken in and trouble shot in the next 4 weeks. We return to srinagar in the third week of september and if the vehicle is ready we'll head off to ladakh. On the other hand, we may decide to just find the best possible montero however much time it takes, in which case there may be no satisfactory conclusion to this thread in the immediate time frame.

thanks for bearing with me and keeping up your interest!

Last edited by Harbir : 8th August 2011 at 21:14.
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Old 9th August 2011, 08:33   #96
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Default Re: New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?

oh fantastic. just found out that the Hankook Dynapro M/T is available in India in the sizes for the Pajero, Fortuner, and Montero.
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Old 9th August 2011, 10:46   #97
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Default Re: New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?

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Originally Posted by Harbir View Post
Its rather a dilemma, isn't it? There seems no ideal choice



thanks for bearing with me and keeping up your interest!

Just a thought.

[1] You obviously are quite satisfied with the MT Montero.
[2] The vehicle will be put to use in some of the harshest terrain in the country, and
[3] As you said in all likelihood the vehicle will be retained till it is usable.

Given the above is enhancing your budget and buying a new vehicle not an option? If no, is it because you do not wish to allocate the requisite funding for a new Montero to this purchase or is it because you do not feel it is priced at a level that is in synch with the value it delivers?

Last edited by RS_DEL : 9th August 2011 at 10:47.
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Old 9th August 2011, 11:03   #98
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Default Re: New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?

My father, for whose primary use this vehicle is and who will pay for it, doesn't see that the Montero is worth twice as much as the Pajero. 20 lacs extra for a more comfortable interior and more power doesn't appeal to him. I can't say I disagree with him. for 40 lacs he can buy a pajero AND a new Accord and be much better off than he would be with a new Montero. He'd happily buy a Pajero today. I am just trying to work out if I an get him a good condition montero for not a hugely greater sum of money than a new Pajero.

If not, a Pajero it will be. (thats assuming that the toyota dealer doesn't surprise me by actually turning up with a test drive vehicle and the fortuner doesn't surprise me by ejecting the pajero from contention)

also, new Monteros are no longer available with manual transmission

Last edited by Harbir : 9th August 2011 at 11:16.
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Old 9th August 2011, 11:11   #99
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Default Re: New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?

please delete. i apologize. I forget the rule about not having new posts if the previous one still has edit time left. sorry.

Last edited by Harbir : 9th August 2011 at 11:12.
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Old 9th August 2011, 11:23   #100
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Default Re: New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?

Harbir you are absolutely particular about the type of vehicle that your father requires. From your posts i am sure you are more inclined towards the Pajero. You have been associated with 4x4 vehicles for some time (As your Forum posts show).

Although Montero (used) maybe affordable but it might be costly as far as repairs are concerned due to it being a CBU.

Fortuner will take a lot of time to be delivered if you get a TD from the guy from Toyota.

Pajero would be my humble suggestion.
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Old 9th August 2011, 11:41   #101
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Default Re: New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?

hahaha! No test drive in the Fortuner again. the guy didn't show. I called the dealership, they gave me his mobile number, I call him. he sounds hale and hearty and Hear traffic honking around him. I ask him why he hasn't shown up for the test drive and he says "aaj nahi ho paye gi, meri tabiyat ek dum sey bahut kharab ho gayee hai".

So I asked him why he didn't have the courtesy to call me and let me know at which he says he told some other guy to take care of his schedule for the day. I asked for the other person's name but I didn't get it. Then I asked him if he understands the meaning of professionalism and of letting the customer know that you won't be able to keep an appointment. he started blubbering again about his kharab tabiyat.

thats it. the Fortuner is out.


edit- no the saga continues. a friend of mine advised me to call galaxy Toyota. Said they're big and good about demo units. so I called and they said they'll send around a demo fortuner within 3 hours. we shall see.

Last edited by Harbir : 9th August 2011 at 11:59.
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Old 9th August 2011, 15:58   #102
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Default Re: New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?

Hallelujah! a fortuner test drive! Galaxy Toyota came through! with a promise of a 6-8 week delivery time.

impressions:

The pajero is better than the fortuner for not 2 in 10,000 people. but I and my dad may be 1 or 2 of the ones for whom it is. Possibly. Maybe. Not decided yet.

first off I got in the middle row. This could have been a make or break thing. my dad is 6'3" and when not driving himself, he lounges in the back seat. So a rear seat suitable for a tall large body is a huge bonus. The Pajero had disappointed in that its middle row seats are not in line with the front causing the occupant to sit skewed. The Fortuner thankfully doesn't have this problem. but otherwise, its not a comfy seat for a 6'2" man. its merely ok. it has neither the thigh support, nor an adequately large back squab, nor is it adequately high off the ground (given how much room there is for legs), nor is the recline of the back squab satisfactory. On the whole, its a wash between the Pajero and the Fortuner as far as the middle row is concerned. If the Fortuner had scored here, it would have certainly have knocked the Pajero out of contention. but it didn't.

Then I got in the driver's seat. This is where the Fortuner scores the first of its two huge wins over the Pajero. Its like sitting in a car, and a decent modern car at that. the seating position, the reach to the pedals, wheel, shift lever, the relationship of the driver to the vehicle, its all extremely car like. very comfortable, very "normal". Compared to this, sitting in the Pajero is like sitting at the wheel of a freight truck. And there are no ergonomic nightmares (apart from a wheel that doesn't telescope but needs to), the audio system and the HVAC are not only integrated and coherent and with modern convenience, they're also so well located.

so right off the bat, the Fortuner has scored a bulls eye.

then we get moving and thats when the fortuner scores its second bulls eye. its engine is better than the one in the montero (atleast the old 165hp one, if not the new 199hp one), never mind the one in the pajero. Its quiet as a whisper, smooth as glass, and pulls like a freight train. and its responses to the throttle are both creamy and brutal. Again and again the impression is of muscle and cream. So very smooth, so very meaty, so very slick. PRobably the best engine of any car in India that I have driven, making allowance for the fact that its a diesel. That combined with the superb feel of the shifter and the entirely lash free smoothness of the transmission, make this one slick smooth polished ride.

on the move, the fortuner is breathtakingly swift. unless a petrol engine that revs hard to produce speed, in the fortuner, you just find yourself propelled along with a great effortless force with rapidly increasing velocity, while the interior and the car's control exhibit not the slightest preturbance by the increasing speed. Truly astonishing. I would not be surprised if this truck outdragged my wife's honda accord without breaking a sweat.

Driving a fortuner feels like driving a fast car from the second story, and not an off road SUV.

thats to its positive attributes. So far so good. these traits make it the better vehicle for virtually everyone. but its not a compelling package for me.

why not?

Firstly, like I mentioned in the beginning, its not a good car for a tall person to ride in the back seat in comfort while the driver drivers.

Secondly, while it has a very good ride over smooth surfaces, it not good at all on bad surfaces. It causes a lot of head toss and stomach churn on bad surfaces. The bucking and jolting is very near the point of very quick discomfort. By comparison the pajero is never as settled as the Fortuner can be as its always fidgeting and jiggling, but its never as rough as the fortuner easily gets on uneven surfaces.

Thirdly, while it can obviously go anywhere a pajero would, its nowhere near as effortless or as graceful or as masterly. it will get places by having high ground clearance and stiff suspension, not because it has masterly suspension articulation and steering architecture to match. I took it into the same rough that I took the Pajero, but it just didn't have the magic masterful feel of the pajero. It bucked and hobbled over the bad stuff unlike the pajero which glided. It did not climb up and over and down stuff with the consumate ease and grace of the pajero. It jolted and bucked and kicked the steering in the hands of the driver. No doubt it will go where ever the pajero will, but it will absolutely not do so with anything approaching the level of ease, stress, lack of effort, comfort, reward and fun that the Pajero will. There is just no contest here. THe nail in its coffin was that backing out of the trail test I put the Pajero. The fortuner did not make out without input. It needed both steering and throttle input and a hawks eye on the mirrors. with close attention and inputs from the driver, the fortuner made it, but it certainly did not just glide over the bad stuff effortlessly. By comparison, the Pajero was like sitting in chauffeur driver lexus LS430, getting driven on sunset boulevard.

So.

In my view, the fortuner wins only if you really must have the looks, the image, the high driving position, and the road presence of this vehicle. If you can forgo those, then the fortuner fails because it is neither an exceptionally good on road car, nor a brilliant off roader. If you must have those (which most SUV drivers must) and you can put up with the rough ride and less than exception off roading, then the fortuner is your choice. If you want a vehicle because you will be going off roading and you want a vehicle thats great to be driven around in, the Fortuner fails.

What the fortuner does best is to be good for the driver on the road. but thats hardly the winning trait as far as I am concerned.

and the fortuner is no match at all for the Montero manual transmission. what it tries to do better than the pajero, it can't dream of matching a Montero on. but its got a great engine though.

lastly, there is one other thing. THe fortuner, for all its comfort and speed, is a very vanilla vehicle. you might as well be driving a diesel Corolla with a lift kit. It has no personality at all. there is nothing special about it, no sense of occasion.

The pajero on the other hand for all its awful ergonomics, feels like a event, like you're driving a purpose built vehicle with an ethos that has gone out of style but which had a purpose and which fulfilled its purpose. Its like you're driving a vehicle meant to explore the world to look for survivors after the apocalypse has wiped out most of civiliztion. like a vehicle meant to get across enemy lines in a war zone.

the fortuner by comparison feels like fast tall minivan.

but dear god, does the fortuner have an engine and does the pajero suck on the engine front!

except for one thing. the pajero makes a ton more torque right at idle than the fortuner. the pajero feels like it would idle up mount everest with low range engaged, while the fortuner's engine feels like a high strung petrol motor. powerful and fast, but not likely to pull tree stumps out of the ground at idle.

The fortuner is like brad pitt. The pajero is like John Wayne.

I think the fortuner is out. though my dad might have different priorities.

right now its looking like its going to be a pajero. I'll give it another 2 weeks to find a good montero and if nothings come up, it will be a pajero. the fortuner remains in contention till I've had a chance to talk to my dad, but its a very distant third right now.
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Old 9th August 2011, 17:21   #103
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Default Re: New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harbir View Post
Hallelujah! a fortuner test drive! Galaxy Toyota came through! with a promise of a 6-8 week delivery time.

to find a good montero and if nothings come up, it will be a pajero. the fortuner remains in contention till I've had a chance to talk to my dad, but its a very distant third right now.
Any creative writing courses also done in addition to your engineering school ? You write with a passion - hard hitting and flowing. Nice touch.

I would like your assessment of the contenders digressing from your original search criteria. If you did not have the consideration of off-roading capabilities in front of you and were looking at primarily an overlander/highway cruiser which would be your selection - out of these three ONLY.
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Old 9th August 2011, 17:40   #104
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Default Re: New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?

an overlander by definition is an offroader. it may not do very serious mudplugging but it is inherently a vehicle that goes over land, ie not over roads.

Not having driven the montero off road, I say the Pajero takes it with the montero coming in second and the Fortuner coming in third.

if you mean for road use only, the montero is first, the fortuner second, with a huge caveat about its jolting ride on rought surfaces, which however does not demote it from second place, and the pajero in third.

finally, I cannot imagine why anybody would buy any of these vehicles if the objective is primarily a good road car. buy a proper car and if you want the big and tall thing, buy a soft roader like the CRV or the santa fe. the only reason to buy a fortuner is if you want serious off road credentials, but if you are that serious about it, you should compromise on road excellence and buy a pajero.

I think the fortuner sells on the strength of its looks, style, presence, image, brand name. If you turn a blind eye to that, and you don't need or want the best off roader for the money, then I can't imagine why you wouldn't buy a soft roader like the santa fe.

but I must pause here and admit that my view of off roading is not the same as that of other people. No doubt there are people who would choose the on road superiority of the Fortuner and would be content with the relatively clumsy off roading of the fortuner because clumsy though it might be, it will still get there, to places where soft roaders wouldn't, and the combination of on road competence and will-get-there off road ability are the flavor of the day.

Maybe I need to rethink my own perspective for myself.

but as soon as I think that the fortuner's on road credentials are really very good, I find myself thinking that if I don't get the sort of off roading that the pajero does, then I want a lot better on roading than the fortuner does.

but then I have always been a purist, all or nothing at all and have always had trouble with compromise.

decide for yourself.
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Old 9th August 2011, 19:57   #105
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Default Re: New Fortuner / Pajero versus Used '08 Montero. Which would you pick?

18 years of american way of life and now in india.

choices are difficult when it comes to buy the best out of the 3 4WDs mentioned in your thread.

i would pick myself a Fortuner out of the three choices, as my current vehicle is Hilux, and im very happy with its performance.

your thread is getting interesting day by day and i would really like to see the choice you make!

good luck Harbir Sahib.
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