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Old 19th October 2011, 09:35   #46
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Arrow Re: Bangalore Annual Offroading Event January 2012

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Originally Posted by Endeavour333 View Post
...to remove the rear anti roll bar? I am seriously considering it. ...
If you are going to remove the anti-roll bar (either front or rear or both) for better off-roading advantage, please make sure you test-drive extensively on-road as well, to get yourself accustomed to the changed on-road behaviour. Since the Endeavour is capable of high on-road speeds, this is a factor which you should consider seriously, from a safety POV.

Last edited by Blue Thunder : 19th October 2011 at 09:42.
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Old 19th October 2011, 09:35   #47
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Default Re: Modifying my Endeavour 3.0 4x4 AT for Off Roading!

^^: Antiroll bar remove: OK

I had the exact issue many years ago on my MG413W while Shanavaz Khan was discussing the removal of Antiroll bar.

Now having removed it for more than 2 years and over various offroad terrains, I am not complaining.

The only issue is the steering feedback at very high speed slaloms or turns, which I consciously avoid nowadays!

You will get better articulation with the removal of Front Antiroll bar. I am not too sure about the rear and would do so step by step!
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Old 19th October 2011, 10:47   #48
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Default Re: Modifying my Endeavour 3.0 4x4 AT for Off Roading!

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Originally Posted by Blue Thunder View Post
Since the Endeavour is capable of high on-road speeds, this is a factor which you should consider seriously, from a safety POV.
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Originally Posted by headers View Post
^^: Antiroll bar remove: OK

The only issue is the steering feedback at very high speed slaloms or turns, which I consciously avoid nowadays!

You will get better articulation with the removal of Front Antiroll bar. I am not too sure about the rear and would do so step by step!
I just talked to Zac from Ironman and he said that the antiroll bar will not restrict the planned lift. He said that it limits extreme articulation but for this 45mm lift it will be ok. However if I feel that I want it removed afterwards I will experiment.

So the recommendation is to remove Front anti roll bar instead of the rear right? (If I remove them at all).

@Headers: What is the feeling you get exactly when taking high speed turns with vs without the Front Anti Roll bar? does the car lean too much and feel like it is going to roll over? Vague steering? Any other input on the feeling would be helpful

EDIT: After some research, apparently removing the sway bar on an IFS truck makes it really squirrelly on road. It apparently works much better with solid front axle vehicles like the Jeep / Gypsy. Was reading this on some Ford Ranger Forums. Not sure about the Rear sway bar yet though. Since that is a solid axle maybe I can remove it for that?

Last edited by Endeavour333 : 19th October 2011 at 11:07.
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Old 19th October 2011, 11:51   #49
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Default Re: Modifying my Endeavour 3.0 4x4 AT for Off Roading!

Endeavour333,

Sorry for playing a very different tune here. I suggest you don't bother modding your Endy for offroading. You can spend 5L on modding, yet you'll see stock Jeeps and Gypsies beating the pants off your Endy in the offroad trails.

I have been in your shoes before. Four years back I too thought I could offroad in my Grand Vitara. I too modified it for offroading, etc. Then the reality hit me. The offroad trails of India are designed for Jeeps and Gypsies. Taking a big SUV in the same trail will damage it thoroughly while Jeeps/Gypsies/Gurkhas will escape with barely a scratch. And you will get stuck lot more times than the other vehicles, and everybody will be cursing you.

It isn't worth it. Nissan Patrol (solid axle) is the only SUV I have seen that manages well in Indian trails. Rest of the bunch just get in the way of others. That modded Endy in the previous page, from what I heard, it didn't perform well either. I did the official TBHP test drive of Endeavour, it is a great on-road or bad-road or mud-road vehicle. But it doesn't belong in the offroad trails of India, which are mainly designed with Jeep/Gypsies in mind.
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Old 19th October 2011, 11:56   #50
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Default Re: Modifying my Endeavour 3.0 4x4 AT for Off Roading!

If I were you, i will remove the Anti Roll Bar first, do an OTR and then decide on the LIFT KIT.

Personally, anything under 4 INCHES is not worth [w.r.t ironman etc.. ]

45 mm lift is not much for a vehicle of that SIZE

Last edited by headers : 19th October 2011 at 11:59.
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Old 19th October 2011, 12:41   #51
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Default Re: Modifying my Endeavour 3.0 4x4 AT for Off Roading!

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Endeavour333,

Sorry for playing a very different tune here. I suggest you don't bother modding your Endy for offroading. You can spend 5L on modding, yet you'll see stock Jeeps and Gypsies beating the pants off your Endy in the offroad trails.
Samurai, thank you for your advice. I do not intend on competing with Jeeps and Gypsies on the trails as I have known for a long time that I will never be able to beat them.

I just want to go along for the OTRs and do whatever obstacles I can without damaging the car too much. In stock form, I cannot do many obstacles without risking damage to my car. When I went for the OTR a few weeks back I really enjoyed the atmosphere, the people, and also taking my Endeavour on the two obstacles that I did. I want to see what the Endeavour can be made capable of doing with some small modifications. I love this car and just want to take it "Soft roading" every now and then. Right now the only way I can get that fix is by going for the OTRs and doing the milder obstacles. The ones that I know I cannot do, I just watch others doing it.

The next modification I have lined up for is 15 inch rims with 31 inch BF Goodrich AT tyres

One more thing I want to modify my Endeavour for is its looks. The Endeavour will look so much meaner with 31 inch rugged tyres, a slight lift and possibly an ironman bumper in the near future.

I can be as stubborn as a mule sometimes, I know and I apologize if you feel your advice is falling on deaf ears. I just like to take my car off road and cannot buy a gypsy or jeep now because I will be leaving to the U.S in 2 years and do not know when I will be back. I feel that these modifications will open up a whole new world of possibilities and create a whole new past time for me - Off Roading. To me, the joy it brings is well worth it and at the end of the day, that should be the only thing that matters. I dont know if my reasoning makes sense to any of you or not. lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post
If I were you, i will remove the Anti Roll Bar first, do an OTR and then decide on the LIFT KIT.
Advance for the Lift kit has already been paid and my car leaves tomorrow morning at 5.30 AM to Bangalore. I pick it up on Saturday.
No going back now!

See you all at the November 6th OTR!
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Old 19th October 2011, 13:20   #52
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Default Re: Modifying my Endeavour 3.0 4x4 AT for Off Roading!

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Originally Posted by Endeavour333 View Post
Advance for the Lift kit has already been paid and my car leaves tomorrow morning at 5.30 AM to Bangalore. I pick it up on Saturday.
No going back now!

See you all at the November 6th OTR!
Super - So We are gonna see a MEAN MACHINE next OTR!!
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Old 19th October 2011, 14:20   #53
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Default Re: Modifying my Endeavour 3.0 4x4 AT for Off Roading!

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Originally Posted by Endeavour333 View Post
To me, the joy it brings is well worth it and at the end of the day, that should be the only thing that matters. I dont know if my reasoning makes sense to any of you or not.
Endeavour333,

Ofcourse your reasons make sense for most of us. Your passion, spirit and most important determination will surely see the build of something you will be proud of.

Like you mentioned it isn't about competing, it is about the bond shared by the off roading community, the camaraderie that is visible when OTR's take place and the wonderful memoirs that we carry back with us.

It is all worth an attempt and wish you the best in your endeavor to build your Endeavor into a able off roader, surely you will achieve your goal.. if not 100%, then something less, all of us do.

Instead of AT tyres, go for MT's not only for the look but the self cleaning and traction advantage when off roading. As I have seen the best Jeeps falter with improper tyres.

EDIT: "ZINDEGI NA MILEGI DO BARA".
Regards,

Last edited by fazalaliadil : 19th October 2011 at 14:32.
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Old 19th October 2011, 14:56   #54
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Default You Are Welcome.

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Originally Posted by Endeavour333 View Post
I just talked to Zac from Ironman and he said that the antiroll bar will not restrict the planned lift. He said that it limits extreme articulation but for this 45mm lift it will be ok. However if I feel that I want it removed afterwards I will experiment.

So the recommendation is to remove Front anti roll bar instead of the rear right? (If I remove them at all).
Hi Vishnu,

AFAIK, also my experience, the anti-roll bar restricts the suspension, in fact by removing the anti-roll bar we gain 1-2" of height.

Also how does a lift-kit achieve "lift"?

How will you gain 45mm Lift when the Anti-Roll Bar, restricts the lift (spring Arch) on the stock suspension?

What is the function of the Anti-Roll Bar in the IFS?

Does a lift increase the operating angles of the Front UJ & CV Joints?

Regards,

Arka

PS - You Are Welcome; Please don't thank me, but give me concrete answers, with explanation and reasoning.
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Old 20th October 2011, 16:20   #55
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Default Re: You Are Welcome.

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Originally Posted by fazalaliadil View Post
Endeavour333,

Ofcourse your reasons make sense for most of us...

EDIT: "ZINDEGI NA MILEGI DO BARA".
Regards,
Hindi nai malum!

I really appreciate your sentiments. Thank you for your understanding and encouragement!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Vishnu,

AFAIK, also my experience, the anti-roll bar restricts the suspension, in fact by removing the anti-roll bar we gain 1-2" of height.

I have asked them to remove/disconnect the rear sway bar for me to test drive it when I get there on saturday. If I feel that it is too unstable then I will have them reconnect it.

Also how does a lift-kit achieve "lift"?

Front: Stiffer Torsion bar + Torsion bar nut will be turned clockwise / Tightened a few turns to position it further downward. The suspension travel will not increase but the suspension will be able to move further up than before before it hits the bump stops. The disadvantage is that the suspension will be able to move less in the downward direction. Therefore it is a compromise on height vs, downward travel of suspension.

Rear: Still researching rear leaf spring suspension geometry so havent isolated the main reason for the lift in the rear yet. My suspicion right now is that it is achieved with longer than stock shackles along with a stiffer leaf spring (greasable shackles are part of the lift kit). The current leaf spring lies almost flat and Zac told me that the new ones I am getting will have more of a bowed shape to them indicating the lift.

The longer shackles will result in a "lift" because it will hold the leaf spring set a little lower than stock, pushing the axle down with it. The stiffer leaf springs will bend less to support the weight of the vehicle and will therefore also result in a slight "lift". I am not sure which one of these is the cause for the rear lift in this kit. It could be both or just the stiffer leaf spring.


How will you gain 45mm Lift when the Anti-Roll Bar, restricts the lift (spring Arch) on the stock suspension?

I am trying to find out how and why the Anti Roll bar restricts lift but cannot seem to find info on that. However I have found many results of people taking off their anti roll bars and getting an inch or more of lift. Still dont understand how though. Will get back to you if I find something on it.

Regardless, I have asked Zac to remove/disconnect the rear anti roll bar for when I come there. The stiffer springs and increased damping from the ironman shocks should negate the roll to a safe amount. Hopefully.


What is the function of the Anti-Roll Bar in the IFS?

To make sure the car does not roll too much by connection both suspensions together. Connecting them via an anti roll bar ensures that one side does not flex too much without the other side flexing, thereby providing resistance to body roll. Stiffer the bar the more the two sides of the suspension will mimic each other in their movements and therefore less body roll. (I knew this answer without researching )

Does a lift increase the operating angles of the Front UJ & CV Joints?

No idea what these are, need to do more research, will get back to you.

Regards,

Arka

PS - You Are Welcome; Please don't thank me, but give me concrete answers, with explanation and reasoning.
Answers in bold above. I am learning a lot about different kinds of suspension geometry, their respective merits and shortfalls when it come to ride and offroad performance, lift kits and how they achieve their results. This is good stuff.

Also found out that one of the earlier versions of the endeavour did not even have a rear Sway bar! So removing it could not possible affect handling that badly, especially with stiffer springs and shocks that provide more damping. I am excited to see the results of the lift!

Last edited by Endeavour333 : 20th October 2011 at 16:34.
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Old 21st October 2011, 09:04   #56
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Default Re: Bangalore Annual Offroading Event January 2012

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I can always test out the handling and then if it is too unstable can just reinstalll the roll bars right?

Please advise? Should I remove just front / just rear / both.
Hi, First remove the rear, see how the vehicle behaves ON road, then remove the front and check the same.

You WILL definitely have an improvement with the Sway bars removed in OFF road scenario. - Its the ON Road that hurts!

You will have appreciable DIVE in under hard braking or a slalom without the sway bar [front] and unstable behaviour for rear! [if removed]
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Old 21st October 2011, 17:30   #57
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Default Re: Modifying my Endeavour 3.0 4x4 AT for Off Roading!

Just spoke to Zac of Ironman 4x4 this evening and he said that all installation hhas been completed and that the Endeavour has got about 2.5 inches of lift in the front and even more at the back! Great News!

He also said that the rear sway bar has been removed and that it handles great even without it!

Going to pick it up tomorrow morning at around 10.30 or 11. I have before pics so will take pics when I get there and post before and after shots.

Looking forward to testing out the new suspension at the November 6th OTR!
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Old 21st October 2011, 17:35   #58
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Default Re: Modifying my Endeavour 3.0 4x4 AT for Off Roading!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endeavour333 View Post
Just spoke to Zac of Ironman 4x4 this evening and he said that all installation hhas been completed and that the Endeavour has got about 2.5 inches of lift in the front and even more at the back! Great News!

He also said that the rear sway bar has been removed and that it handles great even without it!

Going to pick it up tomorrow morning at around 10.30 or 11. I have before pics so will take pics when I get there and post before and after shots.

Looking forward to testing out the new suspension at the November 6th OTR!
Hi Vishnu,

What are measurements (accurate) before and after the suspension lift?

Regards,

Arka
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Old 21st October 2011, 17:38   #59
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Default Re: Modifying my Endeavour 3.0 4x4 AT for Off Roading!

Just for people's information, this is what is a part of the lift kit and their respective pricing at the time that I bought it. Prices are subject to exchange rate between Australian dollar and Indian Rupees. Labor charges not included.

As per our discussion i am enclosing the list of products and the respective pricing.

1. Front and rear nitro-gas charged comfort shock absorbers(TOTAL 4NO). @ RS 21,000/-- (NOT INCLUSIVE OF LOCAL VAT)

2. FRONT UPRATED TORSION BARS (2NO). @ RS 16000/-- (NOT INCLUSIVE OF LOCAL VAT)

3. REAR UPRATED LEAF SPRINGS (2NO). @ RS 24000/-- (NOT INCLUSIVE OF LOCAL VAT)

4. REAR U-BOLT KIT @ RS 3000/-- (NOT INCLUSIVE OF LOCAL VAT)

5. POLYURETHANE SPRING BUSHS COMPLETE SET @ RS 4700/--(NOT INCLUSIVE OF LOCAL VAT)

6. GREASE-ABLE SHACKLES COMPLETE SET @ RS 6500/-- (NOT INCLUSIVE OF LOCAL VAT)

GRAND TOTAL = RS 75,200 + RS 10,528(14% VAT) =RS 85,728/--*

This price is subject to current availability.

Install charges are extra. *

Install time required is 2 full working days.

Freight charges are extra and as per actual.

Phone: +919611291919
Fax: +918040917732
mailto: zacmaratt@gmail.com

Address of Garage:
6th Mile Customs & Ironman 4x4 India
C/o. Zac Maratt & Ruby Trades,
6th Mile Bannerghatta Road,
Bangalore 560076
Karnataka, India
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Old 21st October 2011, 17:50   #60
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Default Re: Modifying my Endeavour 3.0 4x4 AT for Off Roading!

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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Vishnu,

What are measurements (accurate) before and after the suspension lift?

Regards,

Arka
Have just asked Zac to send the data to me. He said he will scan the data and send it across to my email. Will post the scanned image here as soon as I get it.

EDIT: The question you wanted me to answer earlier: Does a lift increase the operating angles of the Front UJ & CV Joints?

Yes a lift kit would increase the angle at the CV joint, but would a larger angle not put less strain on the CV joint? I would think that a smaller angle would put more strain on it. A larger angle = closer to 180 degrees means that it is more like a straight line from the engine to the axle. Is this thinking not correct?

Last edited by Endeavour333 : 21st October 2011 at 18:04.
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