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Old 22nd October 2011, 13:26   #1
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Default Prowler ' THE POCKET ROCKET '. Hit or Miss?

Hi,
As Iam a character who cannot be satisfied with the same thing for a loong time and will need a constant change { Except my wife of course ;-) } I wanted to upgrade my prowler to be a little better. So, thought of putting a SD 25 after a lots of pros and cons from you guys. Anyway, finally decided to try it out and see for myself.
13/09/11 - Got the SD 25 engine in a run down state. First thing , before I bought it , I weighed the DS25 and a XD3P with the alternator/starter motor/pump/water pump/fan blade, without bell housing. The result was a shocking revelation. The XD3P weighed 223 Kgs and the SD25 208 Kgs. Any comments?
Then, now its completely overhauled with new everything except the block with mostly OE spares. The Kiki pump was also completely overhauled with spares from Singapore. One problem Iam facing today is, when I changed the nozzles with new Mico Bosch of the same specs and number, the engine sputters , tough to start, misses and pushes white smoke. The old one is much better. Why is the new one nor synchronizing? Is it because the initial KIKI bosch has a different setting from the Mico bosch?
Iam also planning to change the whole body kit to a new one from Rohan Nino Puri? any advice?
Getting a K&N Appolo air intake, LSD etc. The project has started, with the help of you guys I hope I get a good outcome.
Dr.Jones
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Old 22nd October 2011, 14:01   #2
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Default Hit!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by drjones View Post
I weighed the DS25 and a XD3P with the alternator/starter motor/pump/water pump/fan blade, without bell housing. The result was a shocking revelation. The XD3P weighed 223 Kgs and the SD25 208 Kgs. Any comments?
Then, now its completely overhauled with new everything except the block with mostly OE spares.
Hi Doc,

This is quite interesting, was the SD25 fitted with the Flywheel/ Alternator/Starter Motor when being weighed?

If so this is a revelation, and I stand corrected.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 22nd October 2011, 16:03   #3
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Default Re: Hit!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by drjones View Post
Hi,
As Iam a character who cannot be satisfied with the same thing for a loong time and will need a constant change { Except my wife of course ;-) } I wanted to upgrade my prowler to be a little better. So, thought of putting a SD 25 after a lots of pros and cons from you guys. Anyway, finally decided to try it out and see for myself.
13/09/11 - Got the SD 25 engine in a run down state. First thing , before I bought it , I weighed the DS25 and a XD3P with the alternator/starter motor/pump/water pump/fan blade, without bell housing. The result was a shocking revelation. The XD3P weighed 223 Kgs and the SD25 208 Kgs. Any comments?
Then, now its completely overhauled with new everything except the block with mostly OE spares. The Kiki pump was also completely overhauled with spares from Singapore. One problem Iam facing today is, when I changed the nozzles with new Mico Bosch of the same specs and number, the engine sputters , tough to start, misses and pushes white smoke. The old one is much better. Why is the new one nor synchronizing? Is it because the initial KIKI bosch has a different setting from the Mico bosch?
Iam also planning to change the whole body kit to a new one from Rohan Nino Puri? any advice?
Getting a K&N Appolo air intake, LSD etc. The project has started, with the help of you guys I hope I get a good outcome.
Dr.Jones
Congrats Docts saab. Waiting for your test drive report.
Me too share the same attitude, cant keep anything for long, throwing out the om616 for a force 2650ft Di engine.

Once your Jeep is running , just try using 4.27 .

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Doc,

This is quite interesting, was the SD25 fitted with the Flywheel/ Alternator/Starter Motor when being weighed?

If so this is a revelation, and I stand corrected.

Regards,

Arka
I told you soo , finally you will understand the advantages

I am going to Red rooster on monday to dyno my 3a, want to check out the power of a run down Om616 with kiki.

Last edited by Frankenstein : 22nd October 2011 at 16:06.
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Old 22nd October 2011, 16:15   #4
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Default Re: Hit!!!!

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Originally Posted by Frankenstein View Post
Congrats Docts saab. Waiting for your test drive report.
Me too share the same attitude, cant keep anything for long, throwing out the om616 for a force 2650ft Di engine.

Once your Jeep is running , just try using 4.27 .

I told you soo , finally you will understand the advantages

I am going to Red rooster on monday to dyno my 3a, want to check out the power of a run down Om616 with kiki.
Hi Sandeep,

Once again what are the advantages of the SD25 over the XD3P?

Regards,

Arka

PS - 4.27:1 we guys don't do street drags, so 4.88 or 5.38 works better for us
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Old 22nd October 2011, 16:21   #5
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Default Re: Hit!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Sandeep,

Once again what are the advantages of the SD25 over the XD3P?

Regards,

Arka

PS - 4.27:1 we guys don't do street drags, so 4.88 or 5.38 works better for us
SD25 is lighter by 15kgs.
Has more horsepower and torque than the xd3p.
You have no experience with sd25, you use 5.38 because the xd3p is underpowered on road but powerful on paper.

You are just getting away with gearing , not because of Xd3p.
4.88 will be too harsh to drive, 4.27 suits the power of the sd25 better.
Kiki has a load governor .Low bonnet is lighter than 550 so you need not go lower on gearing.

Last edited by Frankenstein : 22nd October 2011 at 16:29.
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Old 22nd October 2011, 16:31   #6
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Default Re: Hit!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankenstein View Post
SD25 is lighter by 15kgs.
Has more horsepower and torque than the xd3p.
You have no experience with sd25, you use 5.38 because the xd3p is underpowered on road but powerful on paper.

You are just getting away with gearing , not because of Xd3p.
4.88 will be too harsh to drive, 4.27 suits the power of teh sd25 better.

Hi Sandeep,

You are right I have no experience with the SD25.

Please explain how much more power does the SD25 generate for 2488cc?

are you suggesting it generates 30-40% more power, hence the much higher gearing.

or 4.27 because the SD25 runs out of breath, so to compensate for road speed

wrt to weight have you weighed both the engines?

I'm awaiting Doc confirmation regarding the weighing process (Starter/Alternator)

Regards,

Arka

Last edited by ex670c : 22nd October 2011 at 16:40.
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Old 22nd October 2011, 16:38   #7
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Default Re: Hit!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Sandeep,

Once again what are the advantages of the SD25 over the XD3P?

Regards,

Arka

PS - 4.27:1 we guys don't do street drags, so 4.88 or 5.38 works better for us
Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Sandeep,

You are right I have no experience with the SD25.

Please explain how much more power does the SD25 generate for 2488cc?

are you suggesting it generates 30-40% more power, hence the much higher gearing.

or are you suggesting 4.27 because the SD25 runs out of breath, so to compensate for road speed

wrt to weight have you weighed both the engines?

I'm awaiting Doc confirmation regarding the weighing process (Starter/Alternator)

Regards,

Arka
Have to dyno my Jeep and check the power, SD 25 can beat my Jeep easily . Since you dont believe experience of any kind, you need documentation .

Doc is done the weighty issues, Guess xd3p needs a lypo surgery

Last edited by Frankenstein : 22nd October 2011 at 16:40.
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Old 22nd October 2011, 16:49   #8
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Default Re: Hit!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankenstein View Post
Have to dyno my Jeep and check the power, SD 25 can beat my Jeep easily . Since you dont believe experience of any kind, you need documentation .

Doc is done the weighty issues, Guess xd3p needs a lypo surgery
Hi Sandeep,

I definitely don't have your kind of experience, but what little I have is based on observation and common sense.

Why do you think the SD25 " beats" the OM616? Again the Engine Displacement is similar.

What is the criteria Acceleration or Top Speed? Both are affected by Gearing.

Keeping gearing constant/same the Engine with higher RPM will have higher top speed.

Engine with better low end torque "characteristics" will show better acceleration but not top speed.

So How much More Power does the SD25 generate? 1 to 2 Kgm more.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 22nd October 2011, 18:16   #9
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Default Re: Hit!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Doc,

This is quite interesting, was the SD25 fitted with the Flywheel/ Alternator/Starter Motor when being weighed?

If so this is a revelation, and I stand corrected.

Regards,

Arka
Hi Arka,
Both the engines were weighed with the starter motor, alternator,diesel pump, water pump, fan blades, fly wheel and clutch discs. Thanks.
Dr.Jones
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Old 22nd October 2011, 20:58   #10
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Default Re: Hit!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Sandeep,

I definitely don't have your kind of experience, but what little I have is based on observation and common sense.

Why do you think the SD25 " beats" the OM616? Again the Engine Displacement is similar.

What is the criteria Acceleration or Top Speed? Both are affected by Gearing.

Keeping gearing constant/same the Engine with higher RPM will have higher top speed.

Engine with better low end torque "characteristics" will show better acceleration but not top speed.

So How much More Power does the SD25 generate? 1 to 2 Kgm more.

Regards,

Arka
Arka , yes you have a lot more offroad/ xd3p 550 experience than me which i have also learnt from. .But with the other engines/transmissions i mention , it is not your fault that you dont experience them , it has to do with the number of people using them and the Jeep culture in general in Chennai.. You may come across a G1/sd25/om616 or matador 305, once in a while, but in Hyd its a daily affair for me.Lots and lots of them ,different combos , all sorts of engines from the perkins p4, kirloskar ret4 to the nissan bd30 and rd28. Dont mistake me here , i might not be able to tell the bore stroke , firing order of these engines, but i can surely tell which is better . Every day in my 5 months stay in Hyd, 10 hours a day is spent in body shops, mechanics, painter etc . Every day i take out my Jeep , i see atleast 5 Jeeps of known people. All the firends are just JEEPERS having 5 to 15 Jeeps each with different combos.

2 IDI 4 cylinder with the same displacement,OM616 AND NISSAN SD25.

I totally agree with you about the power ratings.
BUT, these are old engines , may be 15 to 25 years old and have several rebuilds up their sleeve with god knows what quality of parts and workmanship.For example i will take 3 engines directly and compare ignoring the other facts.

Isuzu G1, good condition , starts in half a crank, very smooth with no smoke/no heating .
OM616 rebuilt by one of the best guys
Run down sd25 drinking engine oil with weak compression.

Isuzu Jeep has the 5 speed GB with the ratios
1ST 3.7:1
2ND 2.3:1
3RD 1.4:1
4TH 1:1
5TH :0.79

Diff ratio of 4.88:1
Ndms 6.00x16

Om616 with kiki
3speed gear box
5.38 tail gears.

SD25
KMT 90 4 speed
4.27 gears.

With the above parameters the SD5 wins hands down followed by the om616 and isuzu.
Om616 revs but revs slowly.
Isuzu revs much faster than both the engines but cant rev higher.
sd25 WITH 4.27 is an ideal combination.Revs fast quick.
The kiki has a load governor.

German om616 and bajaj om616 have the same paper power , but the German will smoke the Indian 616, tell me why?

I have tested these Jeeps deep clay where power is sucked by the terrain like sand.
Please dyno a rebuilt xd3p , i compare the other engines with the best xd3ps, why i say best is because they won the EXAMM drag( 1st place and second place) .
They were actually badly built engines.There are much much better xd3ps with us.

When you come to the 2012 aavalakonda i will personally take you around in all the Charminar club Jeeps .

There are lot of misconceptions in this forum which many people laugh about but remain silent. For example the xd3p weight .
Be open to everyone .
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Old 23rd October 2011, 12:12   #11
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Default Re: Hit!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankenstein View Post
2 IDI 4 cylinder with the same displacement,OM616 AND NISSAN SD25.

I totally agree with you about the power ratings.
BUT, these are old engines , may be 15 to 25 years old and have several rebuilds up their sleeve with god knows what quality of parts and workmanship.For example i will take 3 engines directly and compare ignoring the other facts.

Isuzu G1, good condition , starts in half a crank, very smooth with no smoke/no heating .
OM616 rebuilt by one of the best guys
Run down sd25 drinking engine oil with weak compression.

Isuzu Jeep has the 5 speed GB with the ratios
1ST 3.7:1
2ND 2.3:1
3RD 1.4:1
4TH 1:1
5TH :0.79

Diff ratio of 4.88:1
Ndms 6.00x16

Om616 with kiki
3speed gear box
5.38 tail gears.

SD25
KMT 90 4 speed
4.27 gears.

With the above parameters the SD5 wins hands down followed by the om616 and isuzu.
Om616 revs but revs slowly.
Isuzu revs much faster than both the engines but cant rev higher.
sd25 WITH 4.27 is an ideal combination.Revs fast quick.
The kiki has a load governor.

German om616 and bajaj om616 have the same paper power , but the German will smoke the Indian 616, tell me why?

I have tested these Jeeps deep clay where power is sucked by the terrain like sand.
Please dyno a rebuilt xd3p , i compare the other engines with the best xd3ps, why i say best is because they won the EXAMM drag( 1st place and second place) .
They were actually badly built engines.There are much much better xd3ps with us.

When you come to the 2012 aavalakonda i will personally take you around in all the Charminar club Jeeps .

There are lot of misconceptions in this forum which many people laugh about but remain silent. For example the xd3p weight .
Be open to everyone .
Hi Sandeep,

The engine revving is a parameter of the engine design.

To convert that to road speed or acceleration the Differential Ratio comes into play.

Now what is the real benefit of an engine conversion? To get something different or something "powerful"

An engine can have have different Power/Torque characteristics, due to FIP tuning, AFAIK the XD3P have at least 4 different FIP setup depending on emission and vehicle application.

The biggest bit of misinformation is to suggest people to change engine, and talk about road feel and acceleration, when the OEM engines are good enough for the job and offer much better reliability and easier packing in the vehicle.

I have done one engine conversion in 2007,(Hino W04D to Nissan Patrol 4 Speed & 5 Speed gearbox) but have not fitted it to any vehicle because, I know there will be reliability issue considering the off-road scenario in Chennai.

wrt to the XD3P have your weighed both engines? Or are you just harping on Docs research?

I keep hearing a lot about Charminar Club JEEPs, but somehow they never show up at TPC.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 23rd October 2011, 13:00   #12
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Default Re: Prowler ' THE POCKET ROCKET '. Hit or Miss?

Dear Drjones - it is indeed nice to see someone take a keen interest in the SD25 / kiki pump. Please try the BD30 also, you will be blown away! It was in consideration for a lot of applications but then -----.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 23rd October 2011, 14:51   #13
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Default Re: Prowler ' THE POCKET ROCKET '. Hit or Miss?

Quote:
Originally Posted by drjones View Post
Hi,

Then, now its completely overhauled with new everything except the block with mostly OE spares. The Kiki pump was also completely overhauled with spares from Singapore. One problem Iam facing today is, when I changed the nozzles with new Mico Bosch of the same specs and number, the engine sputters , tough to start, misses and pushes white smoke.
White smoke = unburned diesel fuel. Injector is the usual suspect.
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Old 24th October 2011, 10:05   #14
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Default Re: Prowler ' THE POCKET ROCKET '. Hit or Miss?

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Originally Posted by DirtyDan View Post
White smoke = unburned diesel fuel. Injector is the usual suspect.
Hi Dan, you are right, the problem solved with the old injectors. The new ones with the same specs { Mico Bosch/Alwyn Nissan/DNOSD193 to be specific } never matched. We tried 3 new set of injectors. The only difference was the old set had a small round pitting on the nozzles and the new one didn't.The pump guy said this pitting is common after sometime due to the firing of the cylinders and not because of any spec change.
B D sir, Arka, Dan, Santosh and all the big guns are requested to give their share of knowledge please. Thanks.
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Old 24th October 2011, 12:44   #15
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Default Re: Prowler ' THE POCKET ROCKET '. Hit or Miss?

Check this out:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1146916...CL3hk_e4mrGZKQ
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