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Old 15th December 2011, 14:43   #46
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Default Re: Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor

Nano (petrol)

A 'motto' ( bigger; gujarati ) nano!.
bigger wheels, for increased stability,
600cc engine,
Electric propulsion only perhaps.
two doors two seater.
Option for Targa top.
A better alternative to the Reva as a city car, with expressway capable speeds, stability etc.,
Something similar to Smart For2.

Indigo (diesel / petrol / CNG)
A crossover or compact SUV based on the Marina parts bin.
1.5ltr engine. VTT dicor.
4x4 with LSD..
Optionally AWD in place of 4wd.
Inline or parallel hybrid powertrain


cheers!
Srini
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Old 15th December 2011, 17:24   #47
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Default Re: Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor

@Behram Sir:

Tata products are always better designed than the competitor products. Take Scorpio Vs Safari for example. When it comes to design, ergonomics, space, comfort, handling etc, Safari is ahead of Scorpio. However, when it comes to Testing, QA/QA, durability & maintenance costs, Scorpio wins.

Tata also feel that they can command a premium over Mahindra, but the sad truth is that market is not willing to pay a *Tata* premium as you can see from the sales of Scorpio Vs Safari, Sumo Vs Bolero, Aria vs XUV500 etc.

One easy way for Tata to gain some traction in the SUV space is to build a SUV based on the Xenon. Xenon is such a good looking vehicle, I am surprised that no one in Tata has actually even thought of this. If you look at Toyota Hilux/Fortuner, Ford Ranger/Endevour products, this is a very common strategy for global auto majors.

I somehow feel that the Tata Senior management is a confused lot wandering around without any sense of direction, while Mahindra keeps throwing punches that hurt.
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Old 15th December 2011, 17:36   #48
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Default Re: Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor

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Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
One easy way for Tata to gain some traction in the SUV space is to build a SUV based on the Xenon. Xenon is such a good looking vehicle, I am surprised that no one in Tata has actually even thought of this. If you look at Toyota Hilux/Fortuner, Ford Ranger/Endevour products, this is a very common strategy for global auto majors.

I somehow feel that the Tata Senior management is a confused lot wandering around without any sense of direction, while Mahindra keeps throwing punches that hurt.
Well, the Xenon based SUV already exists - it's called Sumo Grande
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Old 15th December 2011, 18:36   #49
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Default Re: Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor

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Well, the Xenon based SUV already exists - it's called Sumo Grande
I wassn't referring to the ugly cousin of Xenon . I was highlighting that they have a cool looking platform and they have gone and created an obese elephant and called it off all the names in the world "Grande". I still don't understand what is grand about the Grande.
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Old 15th December 2011, 18:37   #50
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Default Re: Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor

@ Mr. Dhabhar, it feels ironic to see you at TATA. But now you have chance to change the things you disliked, and we can at least hope that TATA UVs will improve in future.

P.S.- Do you still drive that brown VLX?
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Old 15th December 2011, 18:40   #51
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Default Re: Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor

Tata came up with many innovative ideas of different segment vehicle but it is other manufacturers who cashed on it.
  • Tata came with SUMO and then Mahindra launched Bolero and still cashing on it.
  • Tata came with Safari then Mahindra came with Scorpio and still cashing on it.
  • Tata came with Aria then Mahindra came with XUV and sold out.
  • Only place where Mahindra failed is in the case of Verito/Logan as a competitor of Indigo.



Why failed? Most of the cases included poor QC and less interest in upgradation and providing less bells and whistles. Not to forget, poor pricing of their few products (Aria). If we look fit and finish of Safari (Being a Safari Owner) it is far - far away from standard cars that other manufacturers or foreign manufacturers providing. Be it center AC vents, IRVM, center console and so on. These are small, small price cuts would make customers away from Tata products.

Tata has to look into quality of their products and have to grill the nose of their suppliers for improving quality and avoid small-small cost saving which actually making their customers to go rival way.

Good Luck to Tata. Hope we see different strategy from you in future with whatever proposed rival vehicle for Thar or Gypsy.

Last edited by anujmishra : 15th December 2011 at 18:41.
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Old 15th December 2011, 20:46   #52
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Default Re: Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor

my first wish is to reduce the drop-angle of BW TC used in tata vehicles.

AFAIK its higher than MM vehicles.

& a 4x4 SUMO with a better engine & manual shift TC.

rgds,
Nikhil
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Old 15th December 2011, 21:35   #53
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Default Re: Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear Fourwheeldrift / Jaysmokesleaves - Can we get a little more specific? Model by model? You may consider mentioning separate comments for following domestic models:


Sumo / Grande / Safari / Aria (all diesel)

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
With respect to Safari and Aria.

As a Safari Owner:

Interiors and exteriors:
  • Very poor fit and finish.
  • Reduce panel gaps on - doors, body, bonnet, dicky(the worst-you can see the lock).
  • Obliterate excessive wind noise above 100kph.
  • Improve interior design and function.
  • Doors can have bottle holders.
  • Sunvisors are utterly cheap.
  • Slot for the jack has an utterly tacky cover.
  • Cup holders between the handbrake can be replaced with a proper cool box/utility box cum handrest. Copy it from the Prado if you have to.
  • Steering design is very poor. You cannot see all the dials through the steering wheel.
  • Steering adjust rake is a joke, hardly any range.
  • No reach adjust on the steering.
  • No dead pedal.
  • Exterior temp sensors fail to read accurately after a few months.
  • Plastic quality needs drastic improvement. Soft feel plastic on the window sills help most drivers.
  • Glovebox quality is ridiculous, feels like an afterthought jugaad and has quite a panel gap.
  • Gear lever can be redesigned to look and feel more classy.
  • Ashtray fouls with the gear in 3rd/5th and is utterly useless design.
  • 12V port next to it has a cheap breakable cover and poor design.
  • The door open levers on the inside and outside have to be pulled all the way to open on all Safari's.
  • The door handle design on the outside is functionally poor design for the suv.
  • Roof ac should be integrated into the roof. Tall users have bumped their heads on it quite often. It will also look better as an integrated unit. Currently looks like an afterthought jugaad.
  • Seatbelt height adjustment cheap quality and poor design.
  • Front passenger seatbelt buckle poor design/angle. Quite inconvenient to lock and unlock.
  • Rear seats backrest should be adjustable.
  • Front seats backrest design towards the neck is quite poor. Large gap between the shoulders and headrest for anyone who is 6' tall.
  • Tripmeters dont read beyond 1999kms and reset to zero automatically.
  • Must have a proper clearly visible MID with all info and should be well integrated into the dashboard.
  • Replace the half plastic top with a one piece top and classy roof rails.
Technical:
  • Reduce weight.
  • Poor turning radius.
  • Problem with suspension and steering design. It is unable to maintain its alignment for more than 5k kms under rough use.
  • Brakes are poor, uneven grab and uneven wear.
  • Crdi unit very sensitive to fuel quality and prone to injector failures etc.
  • Steering is very vague and deteriorates over time and kms.
  • All rubber bushes and plastic items used inside the engine bay are poor design and cheap quality and dont last. Replacements are hard to find at the TASS.
  • Component reliability uncertain due to poor QC resulting in long downtimes and frequent visits to the TASS.
  • Reduce body roll on the 4x2.
  • Suspension gets stiff after 50k kms requiring bush replacements. Truly pathetic. A Toyota will go 100k kms before requiring attention to suspension under similar conditions.
  • Electricals are unreliable and shady.
  • The quality of wheel nuts and studs is utterly useless. They rust and jam making it impossible to open during a puncture.
  • Reduce turbo lag for better city drivability.
  • NVH levels can be further reduced.
  • Overall Weight reduction is a must. One can tell the difference in sheet metal thickness/weight by knocking the body panels of a Fortuner and a Safari.
  • QC for every component of the Safari needs to be revisited.
  • All nuts and bolts used are very cheap quality and prone to rust.
There is a lot more but i cant think of it while im enjoying the wonderful winter breeze.

ARIA:

A lot of the points of the Safari are still present on the ARIA, though I cant pinpoint at this time. But from what i see at my visits to the TASS, its a sad state of affair for ARIA owners and this is seconded by discussions with owners, service advisors and technical people at the workshops.

I think for TATA to make any headway, they have to start thinking of building vehicles like a Toyota. The 'jugaad ki dukaan' philosophy shows in the product quality.

Hope this helps.

If you need a free test driver to beat the SH** out of your test mule vehicles, feel free to PM me after your best testers have done their job. After having beat the S*** of Safari's and earlier Tata's, and beating the SH** out of Landcruiser Prado's, Im sure I can give your engineers more to work on than they think they have achieved.

Best wishes,

Jay

Last edited by jaysmokesleaves : 15th December 2011 at 21:43.
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Old 15th December 2011, 23:10   #54
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Default One Picture is worth a thousand words

As the saying goes, one picture is worth a thousand words. A few weeks back I was at the Tata ASC in Kottayam, Kerala to address the complaint of poor Air Conditioning in my Indica Vista and came across this Customer service sign in the Service reception, that is supposed to give contact details of customer service reps and company reps to escalate a complaint to.

There was absolutely no names on it. I guess the Tata company rep in charge of this region has 1) either never visited this place or 2) is as unconcerned with customer satisfaction as the rest of the company.

And it was not a new board by looking at the dust on it.

Sorry for the grainy pic taken from my mobile.
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Old 16th December 2011, 12:38   #55
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Default Re: Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor

Tata has no dearth of good-looking aspirational SUVs. I second 4x4addict's post about leveraging the beautiful Xenon for a more popular (less niche) product.


1) Quality - ?
2) Reliability - ?
3) Features - sorted
4) Looks and aesthetics - sorted
5) Power and torque - sorted
6) Pricing - can be easily sorted

Perhaps the best thing I like about Tata vehicles vis-a-vis MM is that they have no records of "Designers Gone Wild" and they consistently come up with some of the most elegant and clean looking vehicles in India today!

@Mr. Behram, your presence in Tata does give hope to a lot of us of seeing something more off-road friendly coming from their stable.

Cheers,
Aditya
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Old 16th December 2011, 14:32   #56
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Default Re: Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
@Behram Sir:

Tata products are always better designed than the competitor products. Take Scorpio Vs Safari for example. When it comes to design, ergonomics, space, comfort, handling etc, Safari is ahead of Scorpio. However, when it comes to Testing, QA/QA, durability & maintenance costs, Scorpio wins.

Tata also feel that they can command a premium over Mahindra, but the sad truth is that market is not willing to pay a *Tata* premium as you can see from the sales of Scorpio Vs Safari, Sumo Vs Bolero, Aria vs XUV500 etc.

One easy way for Tata to gain some traction in the SUV space is to build a SUV based on the Xenon. Xenon is such a good looking vehicle, I am surprised that no one in Tata has actually even thought of this. If you look at Toyota Hilux/Fortuner, Ford Ranger/Endevour products, this is a very common strategy for global auto majors.

I somehow feel that the Tata Senior management is a confused lot wandering around without any sense of direction, while Mahindra keeps throwing punches that hurt.
Agree with 4x4addict here 100%.

I have been saying all the while that the Xenon is a good platform to build on and even made a pictorial of probable models that could come. Here it is again since DB Sir is working with Tata now, hope something similar sees the light of day!
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Old 16th December 2011, 22:02   #57
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Default Re: Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor

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Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
created an obese elephant and called it off all the names in the world "Grande". I still don't understand what is grand about the Grande.
Before launch of the Sumo Grande TATA FIAT tie up happened and then TATA accepted the First name of Grande Punto which FIAT gave after removing from the Indian Punto.
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Old 16th December 2011, 22:33   #58
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Default Re: Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor

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Originally Posted by discoverwild View Post
Agree with 4x4addict here 100%.

I have been saying all the while that the Xenon is a good platform to build on and even made a pictorial of probable models that could come. Here it is again since DB Sir is working with Tata now, hope something similar sees the light of day!
Have seen this before and must say this is brilliant work. The Xenon Explorer specifically looks like a production grade illustration.
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Old 16th December 2011, 22:38   #59
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Default Re: Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
One easy way for Tata to gain some traction in the SUV space is to build a SUV based on the Xenon.
Xenon is such a good looking vehicle, I am surprised that no one in Tata has actually even thought of this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by discoverwild View Post
Agree with 4x4addict here 100%.

here it is again since DB Sir is working with Tata now, hope something similar sees the light of day!
i agree with 4x4addict,
instead of building a XENON GRANDE (no.3 & 5 in discoverwild's pic) they are concentrating on this.
Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor-tata_xenon_cng.jpg
Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor-tata_xenon_cng_2.jpg
Spied - Tata Xenon CNG?

Last edited by jeepster : 16th December 2011 at 22:39.
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Old 16th December 2011, 23:59   #60
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Default Re: Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepster View Post
i agree with 4x4addict,
instead of building a XENON GRANDE (no.3 & 5 in discoverwild's pic) they are concentrating on this.
Attachment 857206
Attachment 857207
Spied - Tata Xenon CNG?
Oh God! The front is all butch & impressive, and the rear is all ugly and so 'jugaad'. What were they thinking?
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