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Old 6th January 2012, 15:24   #76
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Default Re: Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor

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Originally Posted by jaysmokesleaves View Post
Nitin you are right about clutch usage which usually occurs when drivers are inexperienced with offroad driving/conditions and tend to or end up slipping the clutch to get keep momentum or otherwise.
I have been driving offroad for over 15 years in various conditions deserts, trails, mud/slushpits and forests in vehicles ranging from Mahindra jeeps, LC's, Scorpio, Safari and Nissans with manual and auto boxes.
My Safari clutch has not burnt out from clutch slippage.
My existing Safari has done about 6-700kms of offroad use in 4x4 mode over the 76k kms on the odometer. That is just about 1% of total mileage covered and im on my 3rd clutch & pressure plate now.
The Safari clutch is not designed for serious 4x4 use and cannot tolerate strenuous and continuous 4x4 usage.
Even I have been offroad to Leh & Spiti, Interior Gj, Many places in Mh, forests of Orissa and bordering forests and mines of Jharkhand, and Chattisgarh, inside Bandhavgarh forest in MP, driven on beaches in Konkan, slush trails in Goa and quite a few other places in India apart form considerable offroading in the deep deserts across the middle east.
Even I speak from experience
I don't agree with this.
After 55k of usage, just the slave cylinder needed to be changed. I was faulty from almost day 1(sticky clutch)

I have used it in 4L for thousands of kms.
By using 4L, we can limit clutch slippage, and hence prolong life.
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Old 6th January 2012, 16:14   #77
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Default Re: Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
I don't agree with this.
After 55k of usage, just the slave cylinder needed to be changed. I was faulty from almost day 1(sticky clutch)

I have used it in 4L for thousands of kms.
By using 4L, we can limit clutch slippage, and hence prolong life.
Tanveer, the diagnosis was done by the TASS and I have replaced it as PM(preventive maintenance) because I dont want to take a chance getting stranded in the middle of nowhere.
Im sure I could have continued to use the replaced clutch & pressure plate under normal 2wd operations but not 4wd.

How is clutch burning smell related to slave cylinder, can you help me understand..?

Ive never faced a sticky clutch situation in my vehicle till date and the slave cylinder has never been touched.
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Old 6th January 2012, 18:16   #78
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Default Re: Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor

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Originally Posted by jaysmokesleaves View Post
Tanveer, the diagnosis was done by the TASS and I have replaced it as PM(preventive maintenance) because I dont want to take a chance getting stranded in the middle of nowhere.
Im sure I could have continued to use the replaced clutch & pressure plate under normal 2wd operations but not 4wd.

How is clutch burning smell related to slave cylinder, can you help me understand..?

Ive never faced a sticky clutch situation in my vehicle till date and the slave cylinder has never been touched.
After pressing clutch, and then leaving foot, clutch used to remain pressed.
Otherwise, even in off road scenrio, i do not get burning clutch smell, because if the climb is steep, I switch to 4L. She can climb the steepest of climbs in 4L with no ABC
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Old 6th January 2012, 19:08   #79
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Default Re: Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
After pressing clutch, and then leaving foot, clutch used to remain pressed.
Otherwise, even in off road scenrio, i do not get burning clutch smell, because if the climb is steep, I switch to 4L. She can climb the steepest of climbs in 4L with no ABC
Tanveer, I have 2 questions:
1. Approx how many kms have you done in 4wd(total 4L & 4H) in your Safari against the total kms on the odometer ?
2. Does this include actual offroading on offroading trails... or general offroading during trips ?
It will help me figure if there is a problem with my Safari.

Although I dont see any reason between slave cylinder and the clutch burning smell and I know for a fact there isnt anything wrong with my 4wd driving skills, I might just get my Safari inspected.

I agree with you on the 4L climbing abilities.
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Old 6th January 2012, 19:16   #80
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Default Re: Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor

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Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
I wassn't referring to the ugly cousin of Xenon . I was highlighting that they have a cool looking platform and they have gone and created an obese elephant and called it off all the names in the world "Grande". I still don't understand what is grand about the Grande.
Sumo Grande
reminds me of a pompous , past-her-prime lady
heavy garish makeup
clunky shiny jewelry,
gasping for breath when she mooves
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Old 6th January 2012, 19:36   #81
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Default Re: Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
After pressing clutch, and then leaving foot, clutch used to remain pressed.
My Safari is a 4x2, so cannot comment on 4wd capabilites being discussed.

However can confirm that I faced a similar situation, where I got the burnt clutch smell followed by the clutch pedal getting stuck when depressed and had to be pulled out with my foot. Concorde changed the Master+Slave cylinder to rectify.

cheers!
Srini
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Old 7th January 2012, 08:50   #82
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Default Rusting

More rusting: this time underneath the seat. This is the co-driver seat. The driver seat also has a couple of spots, but not this bad.

The black metal rod near the top of the pic is part of the seat frame, and is hiding more rusted areas on the base.

Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor-seatbaserust.jpg

Note:
My Sumo must have been in coastal areas for about 4 days in the last 6 years. So I cannot say this is due to environmental conditions.
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Old 7th January 2012, 10:19   #83
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Default Re: Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysmokesleaves View Post
Tanveer, I have 2 questions:
1. Approx how many kms have you done in 4wd(total 4L & 4H) in your Safari against the total kms on the odometer ?
2. Does this include actual offroading on offroading trails... or general offroading during trips ?
It will help me figure if there is a problem with my Safari.

Although I dont see any reason between slave cylinder and the clutch burning smell and I know for a fact there isnt anything wrong with my 4wd driving skills, I might just get my Safari inspected.

I agree with you on the 4L climbing abilities.
Probably around 4000kms
CLutch burning smell will come if you half clutch.
If your slave cylinder is faulty, and clutch does not disengage completely, you will get burning smell
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Old 7th January 2012, 22:16   #84
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Default Re: Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysmokesleaves View Post

....
With my 4x4 usage, ive had 3 clutch replacements in 75k kms. .
That's a bit much.

Is there a "heavier", more robust clutch in the Tata parts bin that you could bolt in? E.G. from a 407 truck?

Safari used to be powered by the 407's and Sumo's 3.0L diesel. Just a shot in the dark, here.

What's the cost of a clutch replacement, of a slave cylinder?

Last edited by DirtyDan : 7th January 2012 at 22:18.
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Old 8th January 2012, 09:41   #85
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Default Re: Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor

^^ I agree with DD, upgrade to a more "robust" type of clutch.

Jay, I am sure the manufacturer must be having options for these type of clutches (with same dia but more abuse friendly). BTW, what is Safari's clutch dia - 240 mm ?

Spike

PS- What usually causes the slave cylinder to fail, symptoms, any experiences first hand?
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Old 3rd April 2012, 20:15   #86
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Default Small changes in design can help make better products ?

This is a sample of how a small design change can help in multiple ways:

Been peering into the innards of the Sumo, and traced the path of the air from outside to into the cabin, after passing through the air-filter/pollen filter (used when re-circulate mode is off). I think the path was good, but small changes in the set up could have given the following advantages:

Fresh Air duct. Note debris in the bottom right corner.

Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor-freshairduct1.jpg

1. A more accessible air-filter.

2. The current path collects dust & debris. And some moisture too !! Was surprised.

Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor-freshairduct3debris.jpg

3. The dust that collects, plus the moisture makes the dust cake up - and also causes some rusting in in-accessible areas. The dust cakes up in crevices. This area has restricted ventilation, making it harder for the moisture to evaporate - and hence hasten the rusting process.

Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor-freshairductrust1.jpg

4. The point where the air moves from this path to the air-filter has a lot of gap around it, which causes a lot of external noise to come in into the cabin. (Am referring to the point where the fresh-air enters the a/c unit, before the pollen filter).

5. Water seeps in from around the mount/stem of the left wiper. But some one did think of this, and has even provided 4-5 fine outlets for the water to go into the engine bay. Buutttt - this causes rusting on the firewall, on the engine side !!

Suggested changes:
1. Move air-filter near the current inlet. It is possible to design a filter that fits perfectly, and is more accessible than in the present design. Even better would be to move the inlet to the left side, instead of the current position at the right. This would have simplified the path too.

2. This will prevent dust, debris from collecting in the path & also stop it's contribution to rusting in that section.
3. A better designed transfer duct into the re-circulation controller to prevent gaps - reduces in-cabin noise.
4. This will also help release space in the foot-well of the co-driver seat.
5. Prevent rusting in these in-accessible areas.
6. Preventing water from entering this section (ref #5 in prev section) actually helps prevent rusting of the firewall, on the engine side.

Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor-firewallrust1.jpg

Last edited by Jaggu : 4th April 2012 at 12:10. Reason: As per request
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Old 17th April 2012, 18:14   #87
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Default Re: Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
^^ I agree with DD, upgrade to a more "robust" type of clutch.

Jay, I am sure the manufacturer must be having options for these type of clutches (with same dia but more abuse friendly). BTW, what is Safari's clutch dia - 240 mm ?

Spike

PS- What usually causes the slave cylinder to fail, symptoms, any experiences first hand?
Hi Spikey,

Clutch slave cylinder failures can be of two types,
1. physical damage to outer body
2. internal components damage.

Now lets go for the detailed explanation.

1. Physical Damage

As everybody knows, the clutch slave cylinder ( apart from concentric type ones found in Fiesta/Figo/ Scorpio ) is mounted near to the gear box and it is present in the underbody of the vehicle. It is not shielded. This results in stone / hump hit thus damaging the poor slave cylinder for good and also ensuring a hefty service charge for the owner.

2. Internal components damage

The clutch system consists of clutch master cylinder, clutch slave cylinder, a hose and bundy tube. Contamination of brake fluid ( well, clutch system uses the same fluid as the brake system) can happen due to various reasons,

a. Dust entering the fluid reservoir from the engine bay
b. Pouring wrong fluid ( mineral oil ) into clutch fluid reservoir.
c. Brake fluid reacts with hoses to form a sludge. This sludge
contaminates the seals in the slave cylinder thereby preventing
pressure generation while applying clutch.
The last factor is obviously life. Seals can get torn/nibbled due to prolonged usage/abuse.

During the internal components failure, the minor kit can be replaced and the clutch system can be bleed and used normally once again.

Symptoms

1. Clutch pedal going freely inside without any resistance/load/pedal feesback
2. Vehicle "marching" while cranking with the clutch pedal depressed and the gear slotted.
3. Not able to change gears.
4. Clutch pedal travelling all the way to the bottom and finally getting stuck near the floor board itself. ( yikes, that's one frightful situation where I've been)
5. FLWI ( Fluid Level Warning Indicator) might glow in the IP( Instrument Panel) ( if provided ) - If both the clutch and the brake system use a common fluid reservoir.

Cheers


Last edited by wild child : 17th April 2012 at 18:21.
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Old 18th April 2012, 20:29   #88
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Default Re: Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor

Hi All,

I was @ JLR showroom Hosur road Bangalore on Monday with a cousin of mine.
He was contemplating between Evoke & Q5 hence the visit while this is secondary for the post.
The conversation with the sales guy was long, detailed & interesting.
The most surprising / good news for all the LR fans is when..

I asked him about the possibility of a defender in the near future & this is what he said!!

Expected by end of 2013
Price - In the range of Freelander


So folk start saving if you have been dreaming defenders.
Picture courtesy - The WWW
Attached Thumbnails
Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor-startechlandroverdefenderyachtingwallpaper1.jpg  

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Old 21st April 2012, 00:46   #89
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Default Re: Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor

The Xenon Conquest can be the Thar killer...... I just wish it came into production.
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Old 26th April 2012, 13:59   #90
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Default Re: Tata motors coming up with Thar / Gypsy competitor

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Price - In the range of Freelander

Ouch! - that pretty much puts any serious off-roading in a Defender into the 'elite sport' category ?
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