Trax Gurkha - As good as it gets??

[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by rrnsss

My name is Ramachandran. The proud owner of a JUDO 4x4.

BTW, www.force4x4.com is my website .

Welcome to Team BHP, Ramachandran. Nice site you have there.

Please post a formal intro and join the fun.

Originally Posted by rrnsss

No matter how hard I try to get stuck, It just doesnt get stuck.

Now that is a very persuasive arguement, especially when one looks at the video

http://www.force4x4.com/video/4x4.wmv

They neednt have bothered with the corny narrative in that video - what you see is more than sufficient to convince you!! If only this vehicle had some creature comforts..

[johy]

Omigosh!

This is not vehicle -- it is a monster. Huge performance! How much does the beast cost? Makes my Santro feel like a kid's toy

[WhiteKnight]

Originally Posted by rrnsss

However what makes this vehicle endearing is , It performs on road too. I has very good pickup. A top speed of 130Kmph + and a very very smooth engine. The ride is very comfortable too.

There is body rattling, the seats are not of very good quality , the leaf springs and bushes squeak etc. But all these are minor things that one can fix easliy.

Okay, now that is somebody whom I like. And 130+ top speed? I have not tried this, still sounds good. I agree with you on the ride part.

Can we make Trax vehicles look better !!!

[Samurai]

Ramachandran, welcome to the forum. Nice to have an Judo/Gurkha expert on the forum. The video is just mind-blowing, the last time I saw something similar was the Hummer H1 off-road demo video.

It is possible that I may have a SUV in my future, may be in a year or two. But I was quite depressed about the choices. But this new info is exciting. A SUV that can make 130+ and torque happy and with great ride and affordable. I am sure many BHPians are excited about this too.

I have checked the force motors website. But somethings are not very clear.

1) What is the difference between Judo and Gurkha? Are they same now?
2) How is SWB version different from the LWB version in off-road performance.
3) Earlier Gurkha (the BHPian) had told that the SWB version with round head lights is the original Gurkha, but on the website SWB has square lights.
4) The video refers to 290GTD model with OM616 engine, but the force motor website offers only TD 2650 engine.
5) Is the AC and PS option available in all models.

[tifosikrishna]

awesome stuff. wonder why it never got its share of credit even in forum like ours.... there have been many topics about suv and 4x4, but hardly there is a mention about this monster.

ram, very nice video and and a neat website.

[man23ish]

Welcome Ramachandran, I hit your web-page when i was looking at pictures of the German Auto-Expo where the Gurkha was showcased..

I know that the vehicle is quite capable.. But i am sure a lot of people on the forum might also be interested in knowing about the after-sales-support for all Force motor vehicles.. How has been your experience with the after-sales-support for the Judo/Gurkha??

Originally Posted by Samurai

It is possible that I may have a SUV in my future, may be in a year or two. But I was quite depressed about the choices. But this new info is exciting. A SUV that can make 130+ and torque happy and with great ride and affordable. I am sure many BHPians are excited about this too.

That describes me too.. And you bet any vehicle providing that kind of performance is going to excite the BHPians..

Originally Posted by Samurai

1) What is the difference between Judo and Gurkha? Are they same now?
2) How is SWB version different from the LWB version in off-road performance.
3) Earlier Gurkha (the BHPian) had told that the SWB version with round head lights is the original Gurkha, but on the website SWB has square lights.
4) The video refers to 290GTD model with OM616 engine, but the force motor website offers only TD 2650 engine.
5) Is the AC and PS option available in all models.

I visited Khivraj motors last weekend and i might be able to answer a few questions. Judo is a high-end version of the Gurkha, and has an optional A/C and P/S along with 4x4 for 6.5 Lacs.. But the vehicle is made to order since Force Motors is not mass producing the vehicles.

I believe that the SWB significantly improves off-roading experience, since the ground clearance of the vehicle improves significantly and there is less risk of bottoming in uneven terrain. A LWB increases the risk of your bottom scraping on an uneven terrain. But on the other hand, a LWB vehicle is more stable at high speeds on highways and on turns.. An ideal vehicle is the right balance of both..

The brochure that i got from Force motors mentions the OM616 engine.

Manish

[DRC]

I just checked their official website,
It says they also have OM611 CRDI engine too

But could not find which vehicle it is used, Is it an option on Judo 4x4? Or is it available as engine it self so that some one can plonk it to their cars

No specs too

[extreme_torque]

Edited: Kindly do not quote the entire post, only quote the part you want to highlight. - Mod team

I have always loved judo 4X4... some how a bare basic raw offroader appeals to me much more than so called pseudo luxury off roaders, where ur afraid to take them off road, thinking u just might break something.
Fat all terrain tyres, nice alloys on the judo, and voila u have a vehicle with all the go to match the show it has.
And yes... nice website and awesome pics. Keep it up.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by man23ish

How has been your experience with the after-sales-support for the Judo/Gurkha??

I missed that question, would like to know the answer.

Originally Posted by man23ish

Judo is a high-end version of the Gurkha, and has an optional A/C and P/S along with 4x4 for 6.5 Lacs..

So the SWB doesn't have the A/C and P/S option. What is the price of SWB version?

Originally Posted by man23ish

An ideal vehicle is the right balance of both..

I can't afford to buy both...

Originally Posted by man23ish

The brochure that i got from Force motors mentions the OM616 engine.

Is that available on both LWB and SWB versions?

[rrnsss]

I will try to give my opinion/facts on the Gurkha/Judo 4x4

The wheel base of the Judo is 2750 and that of Gurkha is 2400. So Gurkha is a shorther vehicle than Judo. Therefore by simple aspect ratio calculation , the Gurkha is a more capable offorader than the Judo.

Having said that I really do not know how much more hardcore offroading one needs to do in order to justify a Gurkha.

I am making a very honest and truthful statement here when I say ... I dont know how to get stuck in a Judo. I think the disadvantage of the longer wheel base is nullified by the more than necessary ground clearance.

There is virtually no overhang in the front or the rear. This coupled with the 7.50x16 offroad tires makes it formidable.

BUT IN THEORY GURKHA IS A BETTER OFF ROADER THAN JUDO.

Now my opinion about the vehicle.

(1) It is built like a tank. But unfortunately , It sounds like a tank inside. WHen I bought the vehicle, It was squeaking and rattling. Khivraj Motors in Bangalore were EXTREMELY HELPFUL in fixing all the problems they could fix. The door panels, the door beadings, the dashboard , all had to be tightened.

(2) The engine is a dream come true. I am not saying this with any ulterior motives. I have owned a Diesel Toyota Land crusier in Australia , A Jeep wrangler 2.4 L petrol engine in US, A chevy Silverado 2500 4x4 with a 4.7 Litre V8 engine apart from other cars. In India I have had a Bolero 4x4 and now this car. I would rate the engine of this car amongst the Top two. It is very easy to make enormous horsepower with a big block V8 like a chevy or with fancy electronics and Micro controllers like in the Chrysler Jeep. But it is very difficult to make smooth free flowing power out of a Very Simple, reliable and affordable engine like the OM616 T/C Engine. I am also very biased in favour of diesel engines.

I am not a big fan of fast engines that run on petrol ... a diesel in my opinion produces teh "right kind of usable power" . I have done from 50-130 Kmph on 5th gear in this Judo..so take my statement with a pinch of salt.

(3) The gear box. The gear box is the G-18/5 Mercedes designed gear box. AGain , I cannot say enough good things about it. It feels like butter when you shift . I just love the way the gears obediently go and engage when you give it the direction. WORD OF CAUTION: The gear lever has a long throw. It is not a sports car style short shift gear. There is a lot of displacement needed on the shifter knob to shift gears.

(4) The transfer case. I have heard that the transfer cases of the older Judos and Gurkhas were imported from germany. But My transfer case was apparently made in Chinchwad Pune. I had a long chat with the R/D manager at force motors and he explained a lot of things to me.

I DID NOT BELIEVE IT when they said it was shift-on-the fly transfer case even to low range. 99% of the vehicles will allow you to shift from 2wd to 4wd-high while the vehicle is moving. But you have to come to a halt when you want to shift in and out of 4wd-Low. In this gear box, the 4wd Low also has synchronizers ( I guess). YOu can shift to 4-Low while the vehicle is moving (as long as you are not above 10Kmph...Or atleast I do not have the courage to test that upper limit).

The low range T/C has a ratio of 2.9:1 and The rear drive axle rato is 5.3:1. When I am inside the jungle , I put it in 4-Low and 4th gear and take my feet off the clutch and acclerator and at idling speed , it just crawls along to where ever I want it to go.


(5) Diff Locks. It is Magic. My chevy had a Limited slip differntial... but the difference between diff lock and LSD is light years apart. But one has to be careful and educated enough to use the Locks or one might kill oneself (especially if used at highway speeds )

(6) Interiors. Bad to below average. The vehicle (had) has a lot of rattling, squeaky bushes, I personally got the vehicle with two broken front seats!!!!! The interiors were filthy and the music system looked like it had been bought from "choor-Baazar" in Pune. A speaker was missing. There were only 3 hub caps. The paint was damaged in a few places . I am not exaggerating. You have to see it to believe it. The vehicle is driven from Indore (Pithampur) to it's destination.


Having said that "Khivraj Motors Bangalore" were very Kind and extremely helpful. They are very proactive and were with me all the way through.

They fixed everything free of charge, gave me new interiors(seats) and repainted the vehicle for me at a nominal rate ( I opted for a different colour).


(7) Suspension. Excellent.... There is minimal body roll, because it has stabilizer bars, in front and rear. The independant front suspension works really well with the torision bars. Recently I drove it through the winding roads of wynaad wildlife sanctuary in kerala at 60 kmph. It handled like a car .

(8) After sales support. So far what ever issues I have had with my car Khivraj has handled that for me exceptionally. BUT SPARE PARTS FOR THE 4 WD WILL NEED TO BE ORDERED AHEAD OF TIME. They dont keep those spares in the store. An other Judo 4x4 friend of mine waited 15 -20 days for a spare to arrive from Pithampur. The good news is 99% of the 4x4 spares are built to last the life of the vehicle. Usually the rubber boots , o-rings etc are the spares you would need.

THE PEOPLE AT FORCE MOTORS ARE NOT A VERY HELPFUL BUNCH. I HAVE BEEN TO THE FACTORY IN PUNE TWICE TO COAX THEM TO SELL ME THE VEHICLE. IN THE PROCESS, I HAVE MET THEIR R&D CHIEF, MARKETING CHIEF, SPECIAL VEHICLES DIVISION (MILLITARY VEHICLES) CHIEF. They are all very kind and helpful. But they cant help you get this 4x4. Because they have other things to do. Since this is not a Volume sales item, it always takes low priority. The profit margin for them in theis vehicle is also pretty low.

So expect a few weeks to a month of delay if you order the vehicle.

A/C and Power steering is available as an Option in the Judo.

They are not offering the OM616 T/C I/C engine very easily. The TD2650 produces about 75 HP (as against 90 HP of my engine) but has more torque. The noise level is slightly high.

If they had sold me teh vehicle with teh TD2650 engine , I would have taken it in a heartbeat too... It is not for the engine that you buy this vehicle . It is for it's offroad performance. And while offroad, Torque is what counts.

The OM611 is still in pre production stages.

I know it is a long winded post ...but I have tried to answer all your questions.

[rrnsss]

About The price.

The answer is , It depends. But a fully loaded Judo (LWB) 4x4 with A/C , P/S , diff locks will cost 6.7-6.8 L ( Fully loaded is a very subjective term with a Judo/Gurkha)

The Gurkha (SWB) should be cheaper by 50000 Rs.

Oddly they have started calling the Gurkha as SWB JUDO ... so it gets a bit confusing. The best thing is to refer to them by their wheel base 2400 or 2750

If you get it with the DI 2650 engine they call it GAMMA.... it gets a bit confusing.

OH...and an other thing , they also offer it with a single or double PTO to drive a winch or a generator or water pump or anything else you want

By the way , They also offer it with the TURBO CHARGED INTERCOOLED VERSION OF THE DI ENGINE... which will be a monster in it's own right.

[Samurai]

Wow! that's a lot of very useful information. Thank you very very much.

Originally Posted by rrnsss

I have owned a Diesel Toyota Land crusier in Australia , A Jeep wrangler 2.4 L petrol engine in US, A chevy Silverado 2500 4x4 with a 4.7 Litre V8 engine apart from other cars. In India I have had a Bolero 4x4 and now this car.

Why don't you post an intro in the introduction section. I bet it will be pretty interesting.

[man23ish]

Originally Posted by rrnsss

The answer is , It depends. But a fully loaded Judo (LWB) 4x4 with A/C , P/S , diff locks will cost 6.7-6.8 L ( Fully loaded is a very subjective term with a Judo/Gurkha)

The Gurkha (SWB) should be cheaper by 50000 Rs.

The price sounds fair enough..

Originally Posted by rrnsss

Oddly they have started calling the Gurkha as SWB JUDO ... so it gets a bit confusing. The best thing is to refer to them by their wheel base 2400 or 2750

Yeah thats what they told me too..

Originally Posted by rrnsss

By the way , They also offer it with the TURBO CHARGED INTERCOOLED VERSION OF THE DI ENGINE... which will be a monster in it's own right.

WOW !! A T/C I/C DI engine must be the first engine of its kind in India.. Add a Common Rail to it and you don't have to look any further.. Sounds like a no-nonsense vehicle..

Manish

[panky12345]

how about the average/ltr in city conditions?

[man23ish]

Originally Posted by panky12345

how about the average/ltr in city conditions?

Good Question?

I saw a paper-cutout of a newspaper article at Khivraj Motors Bangalore, which mentioned some Guiness Record for Maximum number of Km's in a Tank-Full commercial vehicle of Force Motors.. I am not able to recollect the names of the people, but they were brothers in a family business.. somewhere between Delhi and Agra.. Don't recollect the details.. But i was impressed by what i saw there.. However, i am not sure if they had done some mods/tuning to the engine.

I guess Ramachandran or other owners of Gurkha & Judo can provide more accurate figures, but my guess is that it should not be drastically different than the Sumo and Bolero, since we see the Cruiser, Tempo traveller et all day in and day out as people carriers at call-centres in Bangalore.

Which brings in another point? Is it possible to tune the engine for performance/mileage using pete's tuning box?? Has anybody done it before??

Manish