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Old 6th February 2009, 13:46   #616
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Originally Posted by rhandle View Post
^^^ yes yes a Gurkha beater!!
As good as the Jonga is, the lack of lockers and the live axle combined with low travel in back doesn't make it a Gurkha beater, on certain trails the extra power and immense low end torque does come in handy, specailly over rocks.
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Old 11th February 2009, 00:47   #617
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Hi there,
Aint the Gurkha more stiffer when it comes to suspension. I saw a video(probably a factory video) with some very funny commentary, and when the gurkha went over a series of deep holes with the diffs locked. It just did not have enoung travel for the wheel, as it wouldnt flex much because the stablizer bars are just too stiff.
The jonga, well the biggest hurdle are those front travel limiting rods. the rear is still better than the front just because it lacks the limiting rods, but still it has just about as much articulation as the gurka has. Steve at rmp-o has demonstrated how well removing the limiting rods works for the nissan patrol g60. The problem is that the jonga was designed to provide a nice ride, for which they made a very soft set of springs, but then they had to resort to using stabilizer bars and limited for control yaw, and excess flex that could break those soft spring sets. The Cj jeeps ,with no stabilizers, probably have twice as much travel as the gurkha has, and if fitted with diff-locks ,probably would eat a gurkha alive. and with the stabilizers and limiting rods removed of both the gurkha and the jonga, the jonga would probably win hands down when it comes to flex, especially the front end. The rear leaf of the jonga, at 51 inches long, provides almost the same amount of flex as the gurkha, provided the limiters and roll bars are removed.
All the people involved in hardcore offroading abroad remove the independent suspension, and mod it for a live axle. An independent suspension system can never have anywhere as much travel as a solid axle can provide. Not just a solid axle with coil springs, but even leaf springs can be used to provide more travel. Plus a solid axle can provide a lot more strength than a independent system can. This is also a reason why companies like iveco, renolt, while making hummer look-alikes, are using live axles, because the biggest weakness of a hummer is the independent system. Its pretty common for it to break suspension parts on trails when almost the entire weight falls on just two wheels. If it has a Dana60/70/80 or even a ford 9inch, it would have been a much more stronger vehicle.
Bikram
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Old 11th February 2009, 00:52   #618
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Oh No !!

Brutus, you just angered the Gurkha gods. Sit back and wait for the backlash :-)

Haven't you heard it before. The *German* 4x4 magazine has declared the Gurkha the best offroader in the world and ended this discussion for ever.

Do not re-open this can of worms.
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Old 11th February 2009, 10:30   #619
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Actually the inclusion of Tata 1210 engine would mean that 4WD would have to be removed. The best engine in diesel so far is the indomitable HINO, I bought the Jonga for that reason solely apart from the design. Put a turbo and it would turn to be a mega monster.
Yes, I know about the Hino, Had a test drive when they where trying to get to civilian use[the NA one], is yours with 5 speed option gear box?
Have heard of jongas with 6BT cummins engines with 4x4 [extreme off roader] begin built.Hope the project is complete.
Did you get your jonga turbo charged? how do you like the brakes? they where scary for the 110 bhp engine in the first place.
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Old 11th February 2009, 10:42   #620
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et tu brutus!

Actually, both Gama and Gurkha have great ride comfort on bad roads, better than the GV I drive. So I don't know why you say stiffer suspension, I guess it is little more complicated than just stiff.
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Old 11th February 2009, 11:33   #621
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Originally Posted by brutus View Post
An independent suspension system can never have anywhere as much travel as a solid axle can provide. Not just a solid axle with coil springs, but even leaf springs can be used to provide more travel. Plus a solid axle can provide a lot more strength than a independent system can. This is also a reason why companies like iveco, renolt, while making hummer look-alikes, are using live axles, because the biggest weakness of a hummer is the independent system. Its pretty common for it to break suspension parts on trails when almost the entire weight falls on just two wheels. If it has a Dana60/70/80 or even a ford 9inch, it would have been a much more stronger vehicle.
Bikram
Watch this video!! This is not to prove anything, but just one thing, Live axle with coil springs=deadly combination!


Project-JK NorCal Niagara Rim OHV Jeep Trail 2008 - Video
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Old 11th February 2009, 12:40   #622
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Since I have both Jonga and Gurkha, I know which one does best off road and have already discussed this in my previous posts. The Gurkha front suspension takes shocks and hits far better than my Jonga and on average, the tie rods on Gurkha have outlasted the ones on my Jonga. Also the front axle is rated for 1.8ton so strength here is not an issue. The suspension parts are made out of forged steel and not stamped and are rated for hauling serious loads.

If IFS is bad, guess FJ Cruiser then looses out big time and the bean counters at Toyota goofed up as well. The Gurkha suspension has long travel and thats where its advantage lies of Jonga. Also even though the live axle helps the Jonga in certain places the lack of lockers totally defeat it where the Gurkha goes with ease. The video showed the Judo which is a LWB and considering that, it did stellar on the ditches.

The IFS FJ ran rings around some hopped up Live Axle off roaders during last years Rubicon. Both have attributes but IFS is overall better any day.

Last edited by Gurkha : 11th February 2009 at 12:41.
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Old 11th February 2009, 12:44   #623
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Yes, I know about the Hino, Had a test drive when they where trying to get to civilian use[the NA one], is yours with 5 speed option gear box?
Have heard of jongas with 6BT cummins engines with 4x4 [extreme off roader] begin built.Hope the project is complete.
Did you get your jonga turbo charged? how do you like the brakes? they where scary for the 110 bhp engine in the first place.
I have the antiquated 3 speed and thats the bane of this vehicle, they had to change it three times, the last one has survived around 120,000km so I am expecting it to last longer, I do use Mobil-I synthetic tranny fluid and dont push it hard anylonger. It easily redlines the HINO at 145kmph and thats the sad part. I wouldn't dare turbo charge the engine as then I would have no tranny or diff left. VFJ retrofitted Mahindra brake booster to the vehicle and that imroved braking a bit from scary no brakes to some brakes, but nothing special.
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Old 11th February 2009, 13:46   #624
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Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
Oh No !!

Brutus, you just angered the Gurkha gods. Sit back and wait for the backlash :-)

Haven't you heard it before. The *German* 4x4 magazine has declared the Gurkha the best offroader in the world and ended this discussion for ever.

Do not re-open this can of worms.
OTOH, the JEEP adulation goes on undettered, unfettered nothing is impossible for the de facto God of off road ie the JEEP. No G Wagen, FJ, Gurkha et al is even remotely close to the undisputed champion of the terrains. The Gurkha is just a over sized underperforming poorly engineered Trax after all, it dare not even step into the rareified domain of the Jeep, same goes for TLC, FJ and G Wagen, they are just overpriced hype, clearly not capable of being considered next to the all time great JEEP

Jai Ho Jugaar and Jugaroos of the WW-II US relic.

Why not name this section JEEP admiration and put up a caveat declaring JEEP lovers only, rest be damned and verboten. If random flattery and sycophancy needs a definition, one needn't look into Mirriam Webster, instead all you need to do is turn to this thread.
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Old 11th February 2009, 14:36   #625
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Originally Posted by Gurkha View Post
OTOH, the JEEP adulation goes on undettered, unfettered nothing is impossible for the de facto God of off road ie the JEEP. No G Wagen, FJ, Gurkha et al is even remotely close to the undisputed champion of the terrains. The Gurkha is just a over sized underperforming poorly engineered Trax after all, it dare not even step into the rareified domain of the Jeep, same goes for TLC, FJ and G Wagen, they are just overpriced hype, clearly not capable of being considered next to the all time great JEEP

Jai Ho Jugaar and Jugaroos of the WW-II US relic.

Why not name this section JEEP admiration and put up a caveat declaring JEEP lovers only, rest be damned and verboten. If random flattery and sycophancy needs a definition, one needn't look into Mirriam Webster, instead all you need to do is turn to this thread.
Gurkha,
It is not the question of Jai ho jugaar(jeep according to you) or jai ho Gurkha!! Neither one is adamant to prove JEEP is the only off roader in the world.

I think the point was wether the Gurkha has long travel IFS or not! In fact even BS motoring jurno mentioned that Gurkha had limited front travel. The Tempo video also shows the same. Limited suspension travel doesnt mean harsh ride!!
Jeep has long travel suspension but has terrible ride quality and handling compared to a gurkha. Gurkhas diff locks make itup for limited articulation. Now on what brutus said, if a jeep is equipped with a diff lock then it will eat up gurkha. This will depend the weight of the jeep engine power etc etc.

I have always said this and saying this again let us not compare vehicles of different class. Gurkha will eat up any 4wd station wagon available in india in terms of pure offroad ability is concerned!!!

But if pitted against the SWB 4wds like Jeep and MWB Gypsy in india, it will have a tough time, people in the forum saw this on various off road events.

The point is Gurkha has good offroad ability with good on road dynamics,

Jeep has good offroad ability minus on road dynamics! Hence Gurkha is multipurpose.
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Old 11th February 2009, 15:00   #626
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Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post
Gurkha,
It is not the question of Jai ho jugaar(jeep according to you) or jai ho Gurkha!! Neither one is adamant to prove JEEP is the only off roader in the world.

I think the point was wether the Gurkha has long travel IFS or not! In fact even BS motoring jurno mentioned that Gurkha had limited front travel. The Tempo video also shows the same. Limited suspension travel doesnt mean harsh ride!!
Jeep has long travel suspension but has terrible ride quality and handling compared to a gurkha. Gurkhas diff locks make itup for limited articulation. Now on what brutus said, if a jeep is equipped with a diff lock then it will eat up gurkha. This will depend the weight of the jeep engine power etc etc.

I have always said this and saying this again let us not compare vehicles of different class. Gurkha will eat up any 4wd station wagon available in india in terms of pure offroad ability is concerned!!!

But if pitted against the SWB 4wds like Jeep and MWB Gypsy in india, it will have a tough time, people in the forum saw this on various off road events.

The point is Gurkha has good offroad ability with good on road dynamics,

Jeep has good offroad ability minus on road dynamics! Hence Gurkha is multipurpose.

The Gypsy and the Jugaru with diff locks would no match for a Gurkha, its not just diff locks, its the overall design, there are areas that Gurkha can do in 2WD mode that other 4WDs falter so once for all, its not about lockers. I have seen Gurkha with H/T tires and no diff locks do quite well off road against Gypsies and JEEP. Don't know where you get the idea that front suspension has short travel. The fact is that since its IFS, its not affected by geometry change when the opposite wheel reaches its limits and thereby it keeps its traction. The offroad events you are talking about pitted a Gurkha fitted with wrong tires and inexperienced driver, part of it is also FUD no doubt festered by vested interests. Since you mention BS motoring, you might remember that they also found out that Gurkha could go where no other off roader could. The Mahindra doesn't have have the GC unless modded, the Gypsy however good doesn't have travel or the engine or the gearing. I have owned all these so called vehicles so I speak from experience. There are those who have owned Gypsy King and MM who have now switched to Gurkha not for its onroad abilities as these people have vehciles for that purpose, but for its off road superioroty over the two. Am I to assume all of them including your's truly veterans of owning other off roaders have all gone el LOCO.

A first timer off roader with a Gurkha did quite well against so called veterans with JEEP and Gypsy, thats all that needed to tell one of the capability of the vehicle. His words were that it was a cakewalk, need I say more?

So once for all, stop comparing against speculation, drive one and be the judge. Gurkha was meant for off road, it was never to be used for on road and off road is where it excels.

Last edited by Gurkha : 11th February 2009 at 15:09.
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Old 11th February 2009, 17:07   #627
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Hi folks,
Frankly, i really dont know how-come the german mag placed the gurkha higher than the vehicle it was copied from, the g-wagon(which uses solid axles front and rear). And then theres the unimog too. And those tests are for an normal use off-roader,over normal cross-country roads, i mean places where a landrover goes, not where we decide to take these things.

The 1.8 ton rating belongs to a dana 44 full floater axle too. I dont think the gurkha has more than a 9inch ring dia, and about 1.35 inch axle shaft dia, putting it in par with Dana 44 strength, but still a lot than even a ford 9 inch.

Dont get me wrong guys, i'am not trying to insult anyone, its just good info we are sharing here, so no hard feeling please. If you ever set up a vehicle for good on-road ride, like the Jonga or the gurkha has, you have to use aniti-roll bars to control yaw at turns, and that makes it stiffer for offroad applications.That is why major off-road vehicle have a sway bar disconnect. If the gurka was made purely for offroad it would never have had any stabilizers. Its all a compromise, you just dont get the best of everything.

The Fj cruiser is really a no good off-roader. Vehicle companies have realized that hardly 10% people ever use these kind of vehicles offroad, so they all got into soft-roaders now. Why, look at the latest landroaver and the nissan patrol now, everybody says they messed up the off-road capabilities. There are hardly any people using the fj cruiser off-road, that too with some very highly modded suspension system, and they too dont go where they take they rubicon and FJ toys to.

The problem with independent is not how good they are fabricated or what material they are made from. Its because any chain is as weak as its weakest link, and here its where the wheel pivots. Also, in an solid axle system, if a wheel goes up, it takes along the entire axle along with it, therefore never reducing clearence. In an independent suspension, only the wheel belonging to that side goes up, thus the minimum clearence is right at where the lower A-arm in hinged at the chassis, and where the entire weight of the vehicle is placed at(try youtube, and watch major U.S. trails like the lions back or the rubicon or the arizona runs, and you would see there is a lot of difference between the capabilities of independent systems and solid axles). I used to feel the same way about the independent system too until i learn't what a bummer the hummer is, and why. And its not the makers fault too. The reason why the military forces around the world have been moving to independent suspension systems is quite different than what we think it is. They dont need a awesome off-roader, because they dont have the time for doing recreational things. If we see an obstacle thats challanging, we try to overcome it. The military thinks differently, if they see a challanging obstacle thats going to take time, they blast their way through it, because during a war, you just cannot afford to waste time. They need to move convoys fast. Doring WW2 time there was this famous story of british SAS forces who blasted an entire hill to move forces somewhere in africa. So hard-core offroading is out of their agenda, the max they would take their vehicles is probably as far a gurkha would go. They need independent systems because they provide a smoother ride than what a solid axle can ever provide, and thats because they need a weapons platform that can fire accurately while moving in cross-country conditions, where a bouncy solid axle would'nt work as well.
Plus the weakest part of any axle shaft is the Cv joint, and they too loose half the rated strength at 45 degrees, and the independent systems have 2 at each side. whereas a solid axle have only one and that too only at the front. The 1.8 ton rating is the amount of weight it carries on a 0 degree incline, which in a full-floating axle depends majorly on the axle tubes. It says nothing about the pinion strength, or the bearing strength for that matter. Even a Dana80, which has almost twice the weight rating than what a ford 9inch has, does not have pinion strength anywhere close to what the ford does. They are many variable to consider for that.
I used to have a Jonga 4 yrs ago, and am currently in the process of fabricating diff-locks for another one i bought. I have extensively used a Gurkha belonging to a friend from Patiala, and frankly i dont think theres much difference, leaving aside the diff-locks, and ofcouse the jonga being slightly better built quality than what force motors can ever come up with( I dont think i need to tell anyone how tough the sheetmetal of the jonga is, saw a video of that aussie crocodile guy on discovery, smashing his jonga into a pole with absolutely no damage, altough there was'nt anything much left tfo the pole. peple swear by it, it really is as tough as nails). As far as goung clearence is concerned, its majorly because of theose huge dia tires the gurka runs.

You are right that the tie-rods of the jonga are a weak link, because it hangs low, and cannot be protected like in an independent system, where its placed above the chassis rails.

Pete(Horsedoc) at Rocky Mountain Patrol & Offroad has just installed some homemaded lockers in his jonga, and its very intresting to see what it is capable of. Here have a look at it
DSCN0841.flv video by horsedoc0 - Photobucket

All said and done, please dont turn this into a war zone, i've already to much hatred in this world.
Bikram

Last edited by Brutus : 11th February 2009 at 17:11. Reason: missed something
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Old 11th February 2009, 18:02   #628
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Probably the German magazine was on crack just like I and other fellows who bought the Gurkha.

The Hanomag derived front is rated at 1.8t period, no ifs and buts and the rear of the Gurkha is rated at whopping 2.75t, simple engineering, both are derived from MB commercial vehicles, front from Hanomag, rear from MB407d truck.

FJ cruiser junk I rest my case.

As for quality, the Jonga made by VFJ is pure crud and even though I sadly own it, I own it for the HINO and the original design and not for what VFJ has offered to me. The rear diff is weak by any standards rated at a measly 750kg and its build quality is worse than M&M and that aint no compliment to either. Since I currently own both, even with Yoko Geo, the Jonga would only be able to do 60% of what the Gurkha can do at its best and thats a compliment and an exagerration as I love the Jonga as well.
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Old 11th February 2009, 18:04   #629
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Originally Posted by Gurkha View Post
The Gypsy and the Jugaru with diff locks would no match for a Gurkha,
Really? in what terrains?

Quote:
its not just diff locks, its the overall design, there are areas that Gurkha can do in 2WD mode that other 4WDs falter so once for all, its not about lockers.
Which areas sir?

Quote:
I have seen Gurkha with H/T tires and no diff locks do quite well off road against Gypsies and JEEP. ..

The offroad events you are talking about pitted a Gurkha fitted with wrong tires and inexperienced driver, ...
Though the above 2 statements seems contradicting but they do nail down the most important element in off-roading -- the man behind the machine

Quote:
..the Gypsy however good doesn't have travel or the engine or the gearing.
In stock condition, yes to all except engine power (apart from the old 410 Gypsies). You remove the anti-sway bar and you have as much travel you need and more.

Quote:
A first timer off roader with a Gurkha did quite well against so called veterans with JEEP and Gypsy, thats all that needed to tell one of the capability of the vehicle. His words were that it was a cakewalk, need I say more?
There is something called beginner's luck. I have personally seen a Gurkha struggle after 3 attempts with all arsenal at it's disposal. Either way it does not 'conclusively' prove it's capabilities or non capabilities.

Quote:
..Gurkha was meant for off road, it was never to be used for on road and off road is where it excels.
I am just wondering which 'off-road terrain' it excels in. For example, when we talk of Gypsy we can immediately say that it excels in Sand and slush - because of it's light weight. The jeeps in rock crawling etc..

I think what we at times tend to generalize this term called 'off-road'. At times people call a jungle trail an off-road, some call bad roads an off-road, some call agriculture fields an off-road, some will say only a 'rubicon' or 'rain forest challenge' to be an off-road, for some sand is off-road. And in EACH terrain you need a different setup for your off-roader. What works in sand in Middle east may not work in Rubicon trail and so on..

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Originally Posted by brutus View Post
...

If you ever set up a vehicle for good on-road ride, ...you have to use aniti-roll bars to control yaw at turns, and that makes it stiffer for offroad applications.....

Its all a compromise, you just dont get the best of everything.
Well said. Each vehicle has it's own +s & -s. So does the Gurkha.

Last edited by khan_sultan : 11th February 2009 at 18:05.
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Old 11th February 2009, 18:18   #630
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Somebody pass the popcorn. This is going to be interesting
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