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Old 12th February 2009, 09:18   #691
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One word on B&W, Dana and Spicer parts used in JEEPs and other US vehicles, one of the reasons JEEPs got a ill repute in US was due to all these parts as well as the shoddy engine, the Dana built diff on my Renegade would frequently service due spider and crown wearing prematurely. One of the reasons G Wagen or TLC or even Patrol excel is due to using well designed over-engineered components. The PUCH ZF built power train on G Wagen, Toyota's excellent super reliable in house designed super reliable diff and transfer case all make for their reputation. Stop worshipping Dana, Spicer etc. just because your Jugaar uses it. Stop making demigods out of junk.
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Old 12th February 2009, 10:02   #692
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Before calling JEEP grandaddy of all 4WD, learn to read history. Otto, Benz, Diesel are German names, not American.

Geländewagen, G-Model, G-Class History

G Wagen since 1926, they even had all wheel steering version.

Don't spread misinformation and FUD. There is a JEEP thread and an altar to do the same. Don't rely on information given to you by your SAAR.

Last edited by Gurkha : 12th February 2009 at 10:06.
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Old 12th February 2009, 10:08   #693
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Exclamation Fastest roll-on time ? !

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Originally Posted by Blue Thunder View Post
...the total number of views for this thread stands at 54667 (EDIT 54854) , and the number of replies at 667 (not out) (EDIT 671)....
The above were the statistics at around 21:30 IST yesterday.

Now, it is 55579 (number of views) and 696 (number of replies). This thread has probably created a record for the fastest roll-on times .
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Old 12th February 2009, 10:51   #694
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Default Differential Opinion

Hi Doc (Gurkha) & Brutus (Bikram)

Bikram has stated a very valid point about IFS vs Solid axle, somehow it sounded like a JEEP vs Gurkha.

From what I have observed on Gurkha's Gurkha, is that the IFS has a very fast rebound hence, much superior handling on dirt tracks/ jungle tracks & Trails.

Another feature is that there is not much suspension travel on the front and rear axle coupled with a fast rebound you have good hi-speed suspension suitable for gravel/forest/jungle tracks.

Does it mean for other off-road activities the vehicle is not suited?

The Gurkha can climb & descend pretty well, but nothing great to give the good' ol Solid Axle a run for their money.

Also because of the limited suspension travel, the wheels tend to catch air faster and hence a much greater need for differential locks.

wrt to IFS setup the ground clearance is variable as each wheel moves up or down independently, this is suitable for faster driving of rough road, mountain trails etc.

As we all know traction = Weight X contact patch X co-efficient of friction (between Tyre & Surface)

In an IFS vehicle Weight is not fully or directly applied keeping the wheels down and enhancing traction.

Also the weakest Link in any IFS setup is the rack & pinion steering, the same component connects the 2 wheels and transfers the steering torque.

Also regarding the Force Differential (Front or Back) the have 2 ratios 4.9:1 and 5.3:1 earlier they used DANA44 internals. The Ring Gear is about 8.5" Diameter, same a DANA44.

Regards,

Arka

PS - I'm not implying that IFS or Solid Axle is better. I personally prefer solid axle and suggest so.

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Old 12th February 2009, 11:26   #695
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I agree with you arka, the whole discussion was about IFS VS solid axle off road, but it ended up in personal attacks and some serious slur on iconic brands. I too prefer the coil sprung live axle for sole off roading purpose. In fact the G- Wagon in this video has solid axle with coil springs. Was a beauty!!

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Old 12th February 2009, 11:38   #696
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurkha View Post

Allies had no choice but to airdrop JEEPs so during its design, the military made that a prime stipulation. I have checked my facts, kindly check yours.

ORIGIN OF THE MILITARY JEEP

Weight not to exceed 1200 pounds (increased to 1275 lbs 1 July and then to 1308 lbs)
No reference to the jeep being airdropped on this page, Gurkha. Do not just put up incomplete info which is totally irrelevant. Please quote if you can find any mention of jeep being specifically designed to be be airdropped. What you have quoted is just the minimum weight requirement which proves nothing and in fact when the jeeps hit the production line the weight was a lot more than this.

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Originally Posted by Gurkha View Post
Now let me define JUGAAR for you, buy a battered relic of the past made by a company of questionable repute. Just go and utter the word Mahindra to countries which had the misfortune of importing the CJ and you will see some fantastic praise uttered on Messrs Mahindra.
Totally agree with you Gurkha. I am no Mahindra fan and neither I am of the Force motors. For me both of them are jugaads. The Force has the benefit of a nice engine gearbox combo, but the rest of the ancillaries are very shoddy in quality, not much difference with Mahindra on that front.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurkha;
Don't start this nonsense or else this thread will go out in a tizz, enjoy your Jugaar and stay in the jugaar thread, you have plenty of self appointed Jugaar gods there, go put some incense on them, do some Saar Saar sycophancy and pump their egos up, no need to chime into Gurkha thread unless you genuinely and legitimately own one and have tried and tested it for a period to form a viable opinion.
Do not trivialize the discussion with such small talk. I would expect more maturity out of a person your age. Stick to the matter of discussion and refrain from offhand remarks. You don't know me personally, do you? Or maybe I should just say, forget it Gurkha, can't really hold a decent discussion with you.
And go through this Team-BHP - Announcements in Forum : Announcements to understand the basic etiquettes of posting on this forum.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c;
Also regarding the Force Differential (Front or Back) the have 2 ratios 4.9:1 and 5.3:1 earlier they used DANA44 internals
Dana internals in a german engineered vehicle. I hope you are wrong Arka. Or else Gurkha will have have to murder somebody for the blasphemy.. lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c;
The Gurkha can climb & descend pretty well, but nothing great to give the good' ol Solid Axle a run for their money.
Run for cover Arka, teutonic brickbats heading your way!!
Slightly OT here, but I remember once Gurkha's Gurkha was came to an OTR in Delhi when you were there. I remember one the members taking it for a spin with me in the passenger seat and getting it stuck. IIRC a lot of solid axles made it through the same place earlier on.

Have fun guys, I have had enough of this. Got better stuff to do.

Cheers

Last edited by khan_sultan : 12th February 2009 at 12:27. Reason: cleanup
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Old 12th February 2009, 12:00   #697
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Is it only me. But somehow my Jeep being called a jugaad dosent make me feel bad.
Actually it makes the enthusiast in me feel better.

I got the Classic for 1.4 lakhs and over 9 years i have spend no more then 3 lakhs on maintaining it. Most of the amount was spend when i broke stuff because of my lack of knowledge about the vehicle.

But over years i have a good understanding of the mechanicals. I get my hands dirty working on it and enjoy every bit of it.

The Gurkha no doubt looks good on paper and some of the videos i have seen about it. But no first hand experience of driving it.

PS: I am proud of Jugaad. Works and sometimes much better then the original.
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Old 12th February 2009, 12:21   #698
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Man, these guys know what they're talking about. They even understand each other brilliantly. Amazing.
I'm starting to wonder if Gurkha and Brutus are 2 avatars of the same person.



BTW, i thought i had a Jeep. Yesterday i figured out its nothing but a Jugaaalero!

Last edited by Torqy : 12th February 2009 at 12:23.
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Old 12th February 2009, 13:21   #699
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torqy View Post
BTW, i thought i had a Jeep. Yesterday i figured out its nothing but a Jugaaalero!
That's a nice name for a Bolero Torqy. Every time i think about my next "New" vehicle, the immediate picture comes in to my mind is Gurkha. I don't see any "Jeep Gurus" in this forum who praises Jeep every time and tell everything else is Junk. Every one of them knows the pros and cons of their machines. @Gurkha, we respect you and your machine, and i personally learned a lot from this discussion. Be in the forum and keep up the spirit.

Thanks
--Sree--

Last edited by sreerajunnithan : 12th February 2009 at 13:22.
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Old 12th February 2009, 14:58   #700
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Man what a wonderful thread. I just rated it 5 stars! Entertaining and educating! Entertaining mostly....
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Old 12th February 2009, 18:20   #701
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I am non technical guy who has never done off-roading before.

I got Gurkha because I liked the vehicle looks and also many people have talked highly about it including samurai.

The parking space in my appt. is costly, think of it ~ 3.5 lacs for a covered parking. SO thought would go for one vehicle which would do both at ease.

Gurkha has its share of problems. Bad, rather poor workmanship. I have covered 7500 kms since I got it on october 28th, 2008. Would have done more had they given me the registration number ~ think of it I still do not have the registration number after almost 3 and half months.

Someone said about beginners luck I fully agree. I got stuck in slush in NCR OTR meet. But then one senior member took it umpteen number of times through deeper slush to tell me and pep me up (I was feeling down), that this vehicle is good, and you just need to practice more and you would be able to do it as easily! Most of the members had nice words to say to it. I also think I was able to clear the obstacles with ease because of Naveen/Amit and Randeep cheering me and guiding me.

Today my wife drove the gurkha for the first time on-road (she tried her hands on it on Off-road during the OTR). She had to say this that this vehicle is far better than safari, she says she feels a drag in safari ~ now do not ask me to elaborate on that as I dared not to ask her. She had driven the scorpio extensively as that was the first SUV kind vehicle we had bought, and safari followed it after 3 years. I guess that is one big PRAISE for Gurkha, initially as co-passenger she had called it and it's ride as that of improvised tractor.

To each man his own. everyone is compassionate about the vehicle he or she drives. I feel clearing tech specs and other issues which are beneficial to the people in general is good but not mud slinging.

What I know "Gurkha" knows his machine and will defend it. As would rest of the people would. It's because of him I had been able to solve many unpardonable workmanship of Force motors employee. Initialy the very first day of my drive I was almost like on tears...what I have bought? I had long talks with him and Vikram Nakai (Brutus's friend - small world eh!), and they both assured me this would change. True to their words with every KM I am loving this vehicle more and more. The engine is getting smoother and better. Vikram told me that it would get even better once you complete 20K. I am looking forward to it. Also "Gurkha" was able to pin point the exact problems when told over phone which Force service station were not able to figure out. I really respect his knowledge on Gurkha and appreciate his unconditional help any time of day.

Trust me it's a dream even on On-road situation. I was hoping to meet Noida guys soon and they would have taken a ride and confirmed the same, but do not know where that Noida meet-up thread of Param went!


I like Jeeps and specialy love the small ones , CJ3b? with open top. I like the Mahindra classic. And of-course all the people out there who are in to off-roading, and I guess being one with the nature should be our concern.

stop comparing, but lets discuss. Nothing in this world is perfect, but pointing fingers in not the solution. We all live with imperfections. The place at TOP is always empty as they say.

Lets have mutual admiration for each other and compliment each other's knowledge rather than having it as Ego war. Also I would request people who ignite the flames with their one liners and then sit back to enjoy not to do that! You guys can always ask a question to know more or proceed the discussion further with your knowledge.

I rest my case here and trying to digest all the knowledge shared here today!

Cheers to all and to TBHP community

Last edited by rhandle : 12th February 2009 at 18:27.
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Old 12th February 2009, 20:12   #702
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@rhandle: you have a very capable 4x4 in your hands mate -- one that can be driven on road to and go off-road too. Enjoy it my friend.

As you do more off-roading and go down this path, you would, like many others here, realize that off-roading at the end of the day about being with friends & nature. what 4x4 and what it's capabilities are all secondary.

Cheers,
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Old 12th February 2009, 22:28   #703
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khan_sultan View Post
off-roading at the end of the day about being with friends & nature. what 4x4 and what it's capabilities are all secondary.
And am I looking forward to exploring magnificent Karnataka with one such enthusiast friend with a heavily modded Gypsy

Shahnawaz lets work on a week long camp somewhere in the jungles of Karnataka during monsoon. I should have a 4x4 by then. Am not too familiar with the place but I have a friend who has a house in Chikmagalur with an open invitation to stay there and explore the countryside.
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Old 13th February 2009, 06:25   #704
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Originally Posted by Torqy View Post



BTW, i thought i had a Jeep. Yesterday i figured out its nothing but a Jugaaalero!

Same feeling here too and that doesn't make it any less loved!

PS : Please keep the debate going guys; Loving every bit of it. Cheers!
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Old 13th February 2009, 07:14   #705
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As an ex-army twit I feel I have to make one comment on the WWII info in this thread:

Yes, German engineering was quite remarkable. So was the valor of their soldiers regardless of how wrong headed their cause was. However, from late 1942 onwards they began to fight a defensive war by necessity. The allies took casualties in part because they were taking ground. Taking Ground is costlier than holding ground at least intially, usually. The genius of the American forces at that time was not their generals, their weapons or their valor. It was logistics, moving war material and whole armies around the entire globe to where they could be brought to bear. Their ability to do this astonished both the Germans and the Japanese and they had no answer for it.

American engineering was not that bad either. When the desparate Germans in 1944 built a number of fake fighter air fields and runways out of wood to draw off incessant American fighter ground attacks that were destroying German aircraft on the ground, the Americans discovered this and within 2 days their engineers quickly fabricated a few dummy wooden bombs to drop as they passed over the phoney fields on their way to legitimate targets. Oh, and of course there was the a-bomb, a nice little bit of engineering. Game, set and match. At least, in 1945.
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