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Old 23rd March 2009, 21:44   #826
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Originally Posted by Gurkha View Post
Force is busy with its commitments abroad and it was always tepid in launching it to the Indian market where expectations are totally different from the German market for a vehicle of this category.
Busy? you say. Sorry but that is totally unacceptable in this time and age. Reminds me of how Bajaj and Premier treated customer in the 80s. (take it or leave it). The success of the Bolero should teach them a thing of two about what the market wants and how to execute a winner. and BTW, they need to bring the price down to Bolero levels.
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Old 23rd March 2009, 21:51   #827
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All said and done, the primary question remains still unanswered - why is Force's attitude towards Indians, who have such enormous buying power, so pathetic?

Are their foreign commitments so huge and continuous, that they can afford to be disdainful to local customers?
volums my friend volums to justify the sales and the launch of gurkha for indian customers.

i agree we have the enormous purchasing power, but how many would want a 4x4 for that HUGE price on road?

during my trip to manali, the taxi market was flooded with FORCE 4x4s working hard to get the tourists in and around manali to rohtang pass.

this GURKHA has the FORCE and everything else to make it one of the best 4x4s on this planet, alas....the manufacturer doesnt have the FORCE!
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Old 23rd March 2009, 22:02   #828
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Originally Posted by Gurkha View Post
Force is busy with its commitments abroad and it was always tepid in launching it to the Indian market where expectations are totally different from the German market for a vehicle of this category.
Guess they must be selling such large volumes in the German market to keep them from focusing on India.
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Old 24th March 2009, 12:07   #829
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Force Motors focus was never on top end buying capacity indians. Well u see there products they are all designed for public carrying people. Its a totally different ideology.

Just have a look from our point of view adding few creature comforts dont u feel it would be competent against bolero. Take cruiser for example by adding creature comforts & a third front facing seat wont be the most comfortable MUV with enough luggage space also.

But in recent I have seen a change in attitude with re launch of Gurkha a program of rationalizing products, enhancement of products. Dealer oriented program. This are positive signs means, they are concerned. Though late at least a change is there.

As I can see the changed immediately it will take time for all of you to see the same.
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Old 24th March 2009, 12:56   #830
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All said and done I guess FORCE is bad. Poor workmanship and poor dealer network. Even dealers treat you disdainfully. It's 5 months and I am still to get my registration numbers. Their tomorrow never comes!

I myself do not know how they have survived this long, and especially why German companies like Mercedes and MAN chose them over TATA and Mahindra. Guess it's pure case of their luck. I hope we as Indian customers are able to throw them out of this country. I vow never to buy their products again except for LWB JUDO with OM611 and the new TT with 611 (just being bit selfish). After this would never buy any other product from them and would not even advice my friends to go with them.
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Old 24th March 2009, 13:19   #831
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Originally Posted by rhandle View Post
All said and done I guess FORCE is bad. Poor workmanship and poor dealer network. Even dealers treat you disdainfully. It's 5 months and I am still to get my registration numbers. Their tomorrow never comes!

I myself do not know how they have survived this long, and especially why German companies like Mercedes and MAN chose them over TATA and Mahindra. Guess it's pure case of their luck. I hope we as Indian customers are able to throw them out of this country. I vow never to buy their products again except for LWB JUDO with OM611 and the new TT with 611 (just being bit selfish). After this would never buy any other product from them and would not even advice my friends to go with them.

Good advice, something I should pay heed to. 10 years and 122,000km later of living with the Gurkha has convinced me that its sheer junk, garbage and guess the Germans are into some heavy weed and peyote to even think of technical collaboration with the looser FORCE. MB and MAN, two of the biggest commercial truck manufacturers around truly need their heads examined, what were they thinking.
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Old 24th March 2009, 15:35   #832
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Originally Posted by Gurkha View Post
the Germans are into some heavy weed and peyote to even think of technical collaboration with the looser FORCE.
I think its the money saved on labour compared to Germany.
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Old 24th March 2009, 16:18   #833
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Originally Posted by rhandle View Post
...I myself do not know how they have survived this long, and especially why German companies like Mercedes and MAN chose them over TATA and Mahindra. ...
Force probably offers lower cost compared to TATA and Mahindra for outsourced manufacturing, I guess.

Force has one of the best manufacturing facilities for engines/transmissions. AFAIK, they still continue to supply engines/transmissions for the current range of Mercedes-Benz cars (both export and for-sale-in-India MB cars).

Only the production line for the MUV for the Indian market seems to be a bit lacking in quality : their production lines for the engines/transmissions are certified by MB.

Last edited by Blue Thunder : 24th March 2009 at 16:20.
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Old 24th March 2009, 17:24   #834
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I find Sonalika motors to be more proactive than Force. They would have done a better job with the Trax in India.

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Originally Posted by 007 Bond View Post

But in recent I have seen a change in attitude with re launch of Gurkha a program of rationalizing products, enhancement of products. Dealer oriented program. This are positive signs means, they are concerned. Though late at least a change is there.

As I can see the changed immediately it will take time for all of you to see the same.
Arre Bondji, when is OM611 coming??

Last edited by Mpower : 24th March 2009 at 17:29.
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Old 24th March 2009, 19:16   #835
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Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
I find Sonalika motors to be more proactive than Force. They would have done a better job with the Trax in India.


Arre Bondji, when is OM611 coming??
Slightly OT,

Well 500 engines are already ready & would be deployed for Traveller from April u can get a glimpse of the same by may. Also old traveller seems to be getting discontinued & only traveller with new face would be manufactured from april. Now if you see traveller as a product it has been changed thoroughly from body/engine/gearbox. Also it could be made affordable also as now engine & tranny would be manufactured at Pithampur plant hence lot of transportation cost would be saved. First it was manufactured in Pune.

Secondly next concentration is on launching of a 1tonner new load carrier which will be powered by Crdi mill its expected launch is in May or June. Now this would be industry first & very unexpected from such a lethargic company.

Now same will apply for trax also but will take time but would be revamped for sure. But it would also be on fast track as lot of changes are evident, working style has changed decision time has drastically reduced.

Their overall confidence has increased. If you see balance sheet for last three year they were in heavy losses. Now after selling Man stake a lot of liquidity is generated & now all this action are more evident. Because as u also know to bring changes requires lot of money

By the end or before March 2010 we should see Om611 engine on trax to qualify for BSIV standards.
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Old 24th March 2009, 19:21   #836
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Gurkha Ji,

With all due respect a product is not just sum total of all the parts.
Being a good component manufacturer does not necessarily mean that they can be good product integrator manufacturer as well. Mercedeze and man do not ask them to make full cars / trucks.

There are a number of components manufacturers such as Bharat Forge , Sona steering which export to bigwigs.

Regards
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurkha View Post
Good advice, something I should pay heed to. 10 years and 122,000km later of living with the Gurkha has convinced me that its sheer junk, garbage and guess the Germans are into some heavy weed and peyote to even think of technical collaboration with the looser FORCE. MB and MAN, two of the biggest commercial truck manufacturers around truly need their heads examined, what were they thinking.
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Old 24th March 2009, 22:14   #837
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Hi Guys,
Heres an interesting old German spec-list that i found some yrs ago on the net. It even has the phone no. and addresses of both Tempo trax(Force), Trax LandTechnik Pfundmeir, its German authorised distributer and supplier.
Name:  Gurkhagerman.jpg
Views: 6878
Size:  51.8 KB
I was looking for material on the Jonga diff-loack project, and wanted a device to activate the collor ring of the lock, and the only 2 devices available in India, and that is an pneumatic solonoid from the Tata and Ashok'ies, or the Hydrallic(and now i heard its cable) device from Force, so i thought i could possibly find measurements her. I spent a few minutes on the online German to English Dictionary and translated the following:
Gewichte (Weight)- (In KGS)
Vorderachse Max.(Front Axle Max.)- 1150Kgs
Hinterachse Max. (Rear* Axle Max.)- 1660Kgs
Gesamtgewicht* * (Total Weight) - 2500Kgs
Anhängerlast* *** (Trailer load)
Ungebremst* * *** (Unbraked) -* 750Kgs
Gebremst* * * * * (Braked) - 3750Kgs

Zhee Germans state this;
Front axle rating = 1150Kgs,
Rear axle rating = 1660kgs,
Braked trailer rating = 3750Kgs,
Unbraked trailer rating = 750 kgs.

This Info here has been taking from the vehicle towing mass guide:
"Where a tow vehicle manufacturer does not specify towing mass data, the vehicle may legally tow:
= A loaded trailer with brakes-up to 1.5 time the unladed mass of the vehicle, OR,
= A loaded trailer without brakes-not exceeding the unladen mass of the vehicle"

Here is the Spec-list of 2 types of Dana44 utilising manufacturers, the Mahindra Commander 650DI;
http://www.wheelofindia.de/eMails/de...ander650DI.pdf
and also the 550DP and Marshal Royale here,
Mahindra MM 540 DP Ambulance, MM 540 DP Ambulance vehicle, Mahindra MM 540 DP Ambulance model
Mahindra MARSHAL ROYALE - Silver Jubilee Motors - Authorised dealers for Mahindra & Mahindra's vehicles in Maharashtra. INDIA ,
and all of them state this;
Front axle rating = 1000Kgs,(probably the only non-torsion bar setup here),
Rear axle rating = 1700Kgs.
And the Tata Xenon owner's manual here, http://www.customercare.tatamotors.com/manual/xenon.pdf ,(page 109)
states this;
Front axle rating = 1400Kgs,
Rear axle rating = 1800Kgs.
Bikram
Attached Files
File Type: pdf MahindraCommander650DI.pdf (288.5 KB, 3522 views)

Last edited by Brutus : 24th March 2009 at 22:18. Reason: photo did not come up so switched to the source
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Old 25th March 2009, 12:59   #838
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurkha View Post
Force is busy with its commitments abroad and it was always tepid in launching it to the Indian market where expectations are totally different from the German market for a vehicle of this category.
If that statement is true, I'd not hesitate to say that the business strategy is foolish! The UV market size is substantial in India itself, making Tata, Mahindra & Toyota laugh all the way to bank. I mean, we are talking about a genuine 15 - 20,000+ monthly market out here. Plus, relatively outdated products (e.g. Bolero) sell successfully for 6 - 9 lakh rupees. Imagine the sheer profitability?! Surely their German sales are not a match. I mean, what kind of an Indian company focuses on a smaller international sales, when their home base has the potential to provide better profits.

Here is what I think : Force Motors simply doesn't have it in them to compete with either of the three STRONG names that I just mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Gurkha View Post
Good advice, something I should pay heed to.
On a serious note, you should. Here is an actual owner who has provided a fantastic honest review. Honest in terms of listing out the pro's and con's extremely well. He has stated on several occasion that he is happy with the Gurkha. But that surely shouldn't stop him from outlining the disadvantages of ownership, should it? He has already backed up his statements of poor worksmanship & dealer network with FACTS.
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Old 26th March 2009, 20:53   #839
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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
Gurkha Ji,

With all due respect a product is not just sum total of all the parts.
Being a good component manufacturer does not necessarily mean that they can be good product integrator manufacturer as well. Mercedeze and man do not ask them to make full cars / trucks.

There are a number of components manufacturers such as Bharat Forge , Sona steering which export to bigwigs.

Regards


I guess the MAN trucks that Force manufactures comes out of thin air. Also the engine and transmission manufactured for Mercedes for the core components of the powertrain, had the quality been like Tata or Mahindra, it would have totally jeopardized MB and MAN.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
If that statement is true, I'd not hesitate to say that the business strategy is foolish! The UV market size is substantial in India itself, making Tata, Mahindra & Toyota laugh all the way to bank. I mean, we are talking about a genuine 15 - 20,000+ monthly market out here. Plus, relatively outdated products (e.g. Bolero) sell successfully for 6 - 9 lakh rupees. Imagine the sheer profitability?! Surely their German sales are not a match. I mean, what kind of an Indian company focuses on a smaller international sales, when their home base has the potential to provide better profits.

Here is what I think : Force Motors simply doesn't have it in them to compete with either of the three STRONG names that I just mentioned.



On a serious note, you should. Here is an actual owner who has provided a fantastic honest review. Honest in terms of listing out the pro's and con's extremely well. He has stated on several occasion that he is happy with the Gurkha. But that surely shouldn't stop him from outlining the disadvantages of ownership, should it? He has already backed up his statements of poor worksmanship & dealer network with FACTS.
Force gets enough from its overseas commitments plus their work for MAN takes and manufacturing MB engines and trannies take up their full workforce. They simply don't have the time or care about domestic market, like it or not. With a background like that, they don't need to compete with the likes of the other two barring Toyota. Their (the other two) only concern is sales and thats where they excel. Putting some lipstick and rogue and marketing them with slick ads, substance be damned.

As for advice, it was meant it zest. If you have cared to go through my previous threads, I have mentioned the poor quality of workmanship on Force vehicles quite a few times, however those are limited to oversight like leaving some bolts loose or not fitting wires. Guess what, my friend had a Toyota Innova delivered with no seat belts, if I am to list my woes with my new Surferi the list of Gurkha would pale in comparison. Barring aside those minor defects, the core components are totally issue less and will outlast anything currently sold in the Indian market and that includes Toyota.

Last edited by aah78 : 26th March 2009 at 21:33. Reason: Posts merged. (20 min rule)
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Old 26th March 2009, 21:02   #840
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Originally Posted by Gurkha View Post
I guess the MAN trucks that Force manufactures comes out of thin air. Also the engine and transmission manufactured for Mercedes for the core components of the powertrain, had the quality been like Tata or Mahindra, it would have totally jeopardized MB and MAN.
MAN increased their stake in the JV by buying equity from Force. Who knows, pretty soon they will kick Force out of the JV. Probably because of their lethargic management again.

Who is talking about component quality? We all agree that the TRAX has a good foundation and the basic product is good.

We are talking about a company that has no idea what the customer wants and at what price point. They dont know how to modify and adaprt the product. It does not know how to communicate with customer and provide the service they need. Mahindra and the way they brought about the success of the Bolero is a shining example of a role model for Force.

Last edited by Mpower : 30th March 2009 at 17:39.
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