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Old 28th August 2015, 03:05   #136
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Default Re: Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS

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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Eric,
MDI3200TC, is the way to go, the Low-end grunt is not a aggressive as the MDI, but the Mid-Range and relative refinements are worth the headache.
In truth, it's the non-TC MDI that's giving me the headache (famously noisy, these) .

But now that the leak's gone, even with a probably-not-quite-right IP, it's running very well. Kept up with a pretty aggressively-driven Innova taxi on the way back to Manali, which is as much power as I need for normal highway use.

Seems the low-end grunt is better on some MDI-TC models than on others. Any idea whether there have been variants? People here claim the older so-equipped Campers were much better than the new, and my own experience might bear that out.

Incidentally (re: one of DirtyDan's recent threads on turbo conversions) "Somi" mentioned below says I can easily hang a turbo on my std. MDI and pick up both power and economy. Not that he's ever done it, mind you - but he apparently has heard of someone who has. He figures that even with a new turbo the whole conversion wouldn't cost more than 20k.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aroy View Post
If the liner is cracked and leaking, that cylinder would have lower compression. Just check the compression on a cold and hot engine. A slight variation is always there, but if it is around 10% difference then there is a problem.
You were probably right, in this case the crack was bad enough that it very likely would've showed up. Only trouble is that I didn't have a compression gauge (nor does any local tech, along with the usual lack of basic things like gear pullers, torque wrenches, etc).

Thanks,
Eric

Last edited by ringoism : 28th August 2015 at 03:07.
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Old 28th August 2015, 15:06   #137
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Default Re: Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS

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Originally Posted by ringoism View Post
.......

You were probably right, in this case the crack was bad enough that it very likely would've showed up. Only trouble is that I didn't have a compression gauge (nor does any local tech, along with the usual lack of basic things like gear pullers, torque wrenches, etc).

Thanks,
Eric
And here I am sitting on a load of equipment I have not used since I bought my first M800 in 1990, amongst others
. Gear Pullers - 2, 3 and adjustable types
. Torque wrench
. Compression tester
. Valve seat cutter set and valve compression tool
. Some strange pullers, inherited from a friend

Would have lent them to you if I had known of your predicament.
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Old 29th August 2015, 17:52   #138
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Default Re: Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS

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Originally Posted by Aroy View Post
And here I am sitting on a load of equipment I have not used since I bought my first M800 in 1990, amongst others
. Gear Pullers - 2, 3 and adjustable types
. Torque wrench
. Compression tester
. Valve seat cutter set and valve compression tool
. Some strange pullers, inherited from a friend

Would have lent them to you if I had known of your predicament.
Many Thanks. While I'm seriously hoping/praying I will not any time soon be in need of repairs requiring such tools on the Marshal, it's entirely possible that some other project will have me wishing for them again. Want to send a PM and some photos maybe?

-Eric
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Old 29th August 2015, 18:53   #139
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Default Re: Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS

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Originally Posted by ringoism View Post
Someone (CODELUST) had suggested way back, before I rebuilt the engine a couple years ago, that I might take the car to Mandi for the work.
I am glad you did finally manage to get someone good in Mandi. I don't own anything M&M, so could not recommend a specific shop.

That said, after the June episode, I have newfound respect for the respect for the Manali Motors guys. They really did patch the Gypsy up even after I got it to them close to closing time and stayed back late to finish the job. According to my info, the do a good job for the diesels too. I guess you'd already have given them a shot?
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Old 29th August 2015, 20:48   #140
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Default Re: Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS

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...the Manali Motors guys. They really did patch the Gypsy up even after I got it to them close to closing time and stayed back late to finish the job. According to my info, the do a good job for the diesels too. I guess you'd already have given them a shot?
I know the owner, the parts guy, and at least one of the mechanics there, and they've been pretty decent with me (I used to get some work done on a friend's Gypsy, and still occasionally pick up my oil, screws/bolts, etc from them); for Maruti/small car service there's nobody in the area whom I'd more highly recommend - but they actually do next to nothing with M&M products. There's a place around the corner from them (Gurudwara Road) that does more, know that mech. too, and he's actually the one who first consulted with - and then referred me to - Somi at Namdhari down in Mandi.

When you going to get up here again???

-Eric
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Old 27th September 2015, 17:26   #141
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Default Re: Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS

Dear Eric
I have been reading about your posts about MM Marshal on and off, especially when I was onboard my ship with all the time to surf the net. Being an owner of a 2001 model MM 550 I have always been interested in all its cousins and siblings. About a fortnight back here in Delhi, while on a trip to mayapuri to source an oil pressure switch for my 550, I came across a Marshal 4wd sold by Care NGO parked at one of the old jeep dealers. It was a 2003 model, MDI 3200, KMT 90 Spicer 18 combo in a fairly good state (especially the body). After thinking about pros and cons of the Marshal, I finally gave in and ended up buying it. The cost was same as yours (1,50,000).

Pros
- The engine sounded pretty assertive and starts within an instant of cranking up.
- The 4 speed gearbox has much lower NVH than the one on my jeep(Guess the input shaft meshing with the lay shaft is free of backlash).
- 108000 kms on odo.
- 4wd components are all in place and working.
- Body is good without any rusting.

Cons
- The driver's seat is fitted too far to the right.
- KMT 90 instead of NGT 520.
- Very poor quality and an ugly dashboard.

So notwithstanding all these, Your threads are responsible for this buy.

Vikrant
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Old 9th October 2015, 23:55   #142
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Default Re: Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS

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Originally Posted by bushmaster View Post
I have been reading about your posts about MM Marshal on and off, especially when I was onboard my ship with all the time to surf the net. It was a 2003 model, MDI 3200, KMT 90 Spicer 18 combo in a fairly good state (especially the body). After thinking about pros and cons of the Marshal, I finally gave in and ended up buying it. The cost was same as yours (1,50,000).

...So notwithstanding all these, Your threads are responsible for this buy. Vikrant
Oh! Great to have a partner in crime... I hope you'll end up having a lot less necessary rebuilding to share about than we've had on ours! With 108k on it, should have plenty of life left. Feel free to post a pic or two of yours here - I won't consider it hijacking and am very curious to see it! The condition sounds good, and as such (assuming the hidden issues are not too many) I'd say you probably got a better deal than we managed. Hope you'll be enjoying it, and that, having influenced your purchase, you won't eventually curse me! In truth, our car has served us well, and I'm liking it all the more the nearer it comes to completion.

-Eric

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Old 10th October 2015, 00:04   #143
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Default Re: Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS

Ahhh, just when I thought I was "done":

Name:  WP_20151009_18_08_17_Pro.jpg
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A turbo conversion might be in the works... Always did feel the MDI TC's really had a more appropriate amount of "pull" under hill conditions, and I'm being told that there's really not much to it.

Found this by accident at the scrapyard the other day. Rs 270 (two-seventy) total (by weight), but will need some rebuilding due to shaft play (that could be Rs2500 or 12,500, depending so let's see).

Check out post #95 (etc) here for more info:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-te...-vehicles.html (Turbos on Indian off-road vehicles)

Might be awhile before taking the time seems quite justifiable... but moving in this direction.

-Eric

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Old 10th October 2015, 00:36   #144
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Default Re: Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS

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Originally Posted by bushmaster View Post
- The 4 speed gearbox has much lower NVH than the one on my jeep
Cons:
- KMT 90 instead of NGT 520.
- Very poor quality and an ugly dashboard.
Stock dashboards are indeed ugly and crack-prone. Ours was earlier retrofitted with the flat-panel metal one from the Pickup/Commander, which I actually like a lot and might eventually get padded/upholstered with rexine. Downside is that critical instruments are nowhere near the driver's line of vision; upside is that since they're smack in the middle, you can have your companion keep an eye on them, too (I'm planning to add oil pressure and engine temp "idiot lights" anyway, so no real issues). Not rattle-prone, either, but the GREATEST benefit is that there's no top surface area to create a nasty glare on the windshield (hate that in all other cars).

KMT90 is not so bad, though it properly requires double-clutching to get into first (non-syncronized) when rolling. I often debated the NGT520 upgrade, but in our case it'd take a lot more highway driving than we do to justify the trouble/expense. Up to 70-80kmph (max. hill highway speed), the MDI/KMT/4.27diff/6.00x16 combo is okay. Above that, you're going to want to upgrade to better (wider) tyres, disc brakes, and a larger (Bolero Pickup) front sway bar, at minimum, besides the 5-speed. While you're at it, maybe throw in a turbo and power steering (and heck, if you're in the plains, A/C), too. Uh-oh, now it's sounding like a new 7+lakh Bolero LX DI 4x4.

FYI, ours tops out around 100kmph (GPS-confirmed) on a plain highway, but the DI's really screaming by that time, and the slow steering/primitive suspension/skinny tyres/marginal (even with disc) brakes have you praying there'll be no need of panic-stops anywhere ahead.

So where all have you been in your ship?

-Eric

Last edited by ringoism : 10th October 2015 at 00:39.
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Old 13th October 2015, 20:35   #145
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Default Re: Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS

KMT90 is not so bad, though it properly requires double-clutching to get into first (non-syncronized) when rolling. I often debated the NGT520 upgrade, but in our case it'd take a lot more highway driving than we do to justify the trouble/expense. Up to 70-80kmph (max. hill highway speed), the MDI/KMT/4.27diff/6.00x16 combo is okay. Above that, you're going to want to upgrade to better (wider) tyres, disc brakes, and a larger (Bolero Pickup) front sway bar, at minimum, besides the 5-speed. While you're at it, maybe throw in a turbo and power steering (and heck, if you're in the plains, A/C), too. Uh-oh, now it's sounding like a new 7+lakh Bolero LX DI 4x4.

FYI, ours tops out around 100kmph (GPS-confirmed) on a plain highway, but the DI's really screaming by that time, and the slow steering/primitive suspension/skinny tyres/marginal (even with disc) brakes have you praying there'll be no need of panic-stops anywhere ahead.

So where all have you been in your ship?

-Eric[/quote]

Hi Eric
The idea is to fix my marshal all by myself just like i did my jeep and everything else I own. Since mechanics are out of my plans, I may take a bit more time than usual to get it up to the shape which I want it to be in. As of now I have done the following :-
- Paint job( Du-pont polyurethane with Matt top coat)
- Fitted a power steering( Rane type)
- greased the front hub bearings
- straightened and re -bend the gear lever to remain somewhere in centre


I have currently used 7.50 x 16 sand cum highway tyres since it was looking very clownish with those small 195/70 r 15 tyres. It has also given a bit of overdrive feel at speeds in excess of 70. Though they will soon be replaced with 9.0x16 NDMS which have been successfully running in my jeep 550 for three years and are my all time favourite on vehicles with a jeep front since they fit without major modifications and help reduce many transfer box bottoming out in river crossings etc. 9.0x16 helped me cross the kaksangla pass with relative ease considering the road wasn't used in a decade by 4 wheelers and had several washed out culverts and numerous boulders over a foot across stew on the road.
A word about turbo conversion. MDI 3200 TC is an MDI 3200 with just the TC. Nothing more nothing less. By this I mean the camshaft is originally designed for a naturally aspirated engine and does not have the valve overlap as required by blown engines. I read somewhere that the turbo was fitted to improve emissions and the 5 bhp increase is only incidental. Also the fuel pump comes from a naturally aspirated engine as well since it lacks the fuel boost mechanism(diaphragm actuator) which is essentially operated by a pulse line conveying the charge air pressure from the inlet manifold. AFAI think, by just putting a proper turbo adapted pump the power output can be increased to around 90 bhp and to around 100 bhp by introduction of an intercooler before you touch the smoke limit. This is something I want to try very soon.
Coming to fitting just the turbo, there will be no gain unless the fuel supply is boosted as well. You can quarter turn clockwise at a time and try out climbing slopes before you hit smoke limit, then a half quarter turn back before you lock it in place. expect about 5-6 bhp increase as is the difference between 63 and 58 bhp claimed by mahindra between the turbo and the NA engines respectively.

PS. My ship took me to all oceans and straits and several islands in the eastern hemisphere till about two years back. It perhaps is still at sea somewhere and I can imagine it vanishing beyond the horizon as I sit here in Delhi pushing files in the Headquarters of Defence Ministry.

So long
Vikrant
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Old 19th October 2015, 22:35   #146
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Default Re: Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS

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Originally Posted by bushmaster View Post
As of now I have done the following :-
- Paint job( Du-pont polyurethane with Matt top coat)
- Fitted a power steering( Rane type)

they will soon be replaced with 9.0x16 NDMS which have been successfully running in my jeep 550 for three years and are my all time favourite on vehicles with a jeep front since they fit without major modifications and help reduce many transfer box bottoming out in river crossings etc.

MDI 3200 TC is an MDI 3200 with just the TC. Nothing more nothing less. By this I mean the camshaft is originally designed for a naturally aspirated engine and does not have the valve overlap as required by blown engines. I read somewhere that the turbo was fitted to improve emissions and the 5 bhp increase is only incidental. Also the fuel pump comes from a naturally aspirated engine as well since it lacks the fuel boost mechanism(diaphragm actuator) which is essentially operated by a pulse line conveying the charge air pressure from the inlet manifold. AFAI think, by just putting a proper turbo adapted pump the power output can be increased to around 90 bhp and to around 100 bhp by introduction of an intercooler before you touch the smoke limit. This is something I want to try very soon.

Coming to fitting just the turbo, there will be no gain unless the fuel supply is boosted as well. You can quarter turn clockwise at a time and try out climbing slopes before you hit smoke limit, then a half quarter turn back before you lock it in place. expect about 5-6 bhp increase as is the difference between 63 and 58 bhp claimed by mahindra between the turbo and the NA engines respectively.
Really hoping you'll find the time to start a thread or two for your Marshal and/or 550. Curious to see the paint, the oversize tyres (whether 7.50 or 9.00), etc. Also wondering which Rane steering setup you used (from a Bolero, or ???) and what was involved in the conversion.

Re: turbo conversions, there's been quite a lot of discussion about it here recently: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-te...-vehicles.html (Turbos on Indian off-road vehicles)

The MDI-TC has little additional bhp, but a lot more torque, as evidenced both on paper (specs) and on road (see my latest posts in the referenced thread). The pump is not the same, though it's a similar rotary-type, and you may be correct in saying it is not an enrichment-equipped unit (not all such have a diaphragm atop the pump, though, some simply use an on/off switch - which interestingly is what the Tata Spacio's turbo-engine pump has, according to our local pump technician). Great source of general info for this is the VW diesel forums, since they're a very popular engine for modifications (incl. turbo retro-fits) in North America, and they use very similar Bosch VE pumps. People have had good results with those with both the stock pumps and "adenoid" (fuel-adding-solenoid) versions.

I thought that turbo engines generally used zero-overlap cams. Not sure about N/A DI diesels re: how aggressive the overlap is, but I'm guessing not very, since it's a very low-revving engine that wouldn't benefit much from additional (high-rpm-oriented) overlap anyway. Will look into this before I do anything, though.

Some bhp-ian claimed that the original Scorpio's 2.6 Turbo engine was evolved from the old MDI's. Not sure about parts interchange, etc, but if so, the 90bhp figure sounds pretty reasonable to expect, given the right fuel system/turbo/intercooler.

Anyway, thanks so much for your comments, and for generously sharing your knowledge / experience.

P.S., I've done just a bit of work (mostly welding) on some early 1950's passenger ships (Italian/Norwegian) that had been converted for mobile hospital uses. Wish I could've actually got out into the oceans in them (a diminishing dream)!

-Eric

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Old 28th October 2015, 13:09   #147
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Default Lahaul in Autumn (three days' family travel by Marshal)

Had about a three-day window of nice sunny weather (bookended by rain/cold, and on Rohtang, snow) for a little family outing in Lahaul Valley, as we’d long hoped we might.

Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS-dsc02415.jpg

The autumn beauty of the place is stunning, as you can see; Our old Marshal, sufficiently "de-bugged" for the time being, ran fine the whole way (around 16 hrs total); The kids (and the rest of us) traveled pretty well through some hundreds of miles of often twisty/dusty/bumpy and at many points dangerous roads (actually the roads aren't dangerous, it's coming off them that would especially be!!! ); And having spent something under Rs5,000 all inclusive, it was pretty budget-friendly, too - well worth whatever it took of us to get there and back.

Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS-dsc01819.jpg
Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS-dscf0118.jpg
Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS-dscf0114.jpg
Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS-dsc01865_stitch.jpg

No matter where our course in life may take us, knowing and living in communion with the Divine should be considered an unsurpassed privilege, and being able to get the family out to places like this can be considered a great boon in that pursuit. Many local friends back in Manali, on hearing of our traveling as far as Udaipur, asked whether we had gone there to worship at the well-known Triloknath temple; but that was never in view: The fact is that we'd be hard pressed to find a sanctuary more awe-inspiring than Lahaul itself, in its colour-saturated, snow-capped splendor; And my own body becomes a temple, from which purest worship resonates as I wander about the place.

Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS-dsc02261_stitch.jpg
Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS-dsc02331.jpg
Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS-dsc02411.jpg
Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS-dsc02428_stitch_stitchb.jpg

The impressively hardy, industrious, and rather intelligent people who've been given Lahaul for a home have supplemented and even enhanced the surrounding natural beauty with the unusual neatness and order of their multi-textured orchards, fields, and villages. And in the end, it's kind of circular; Hapless outsiders like ourselves are blessed with a rare opportunity to take in the grand sum of it, and in response can't help but lift up the divine Name in praise; So everything’s “right” and everybody’s happy. A little taste of heaven on earth. Nice how that works out.

Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS-dsc02433_stitch.jpg
Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS-dsc02467_stitch.jpg
Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS-dsc02587.jpg
Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS-dsc02828.jpg


Hope to be able to do this sort of thing increasingly in the coming months / years, now that the kids are getting bigger and more able / accommodating; There must be only a small minority of the world’s population that has such an amazing natural environment as readily accessible to them; We ourselves cannot know how long we'll enjoy the privilege of living here; and as such, it could almost seem a form of ungratefulness for us to not venture out there a bit while we can.

Regards,
Eric
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Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS-dscf0097.jpg  

Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS-dscf0104.jpg  


Last edited by ringoism : 2nd November 2015 at 00:59.
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Old 25th December 2015, 21:24   #148
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Default Re: Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS

Been cold these days... meaning well below zero these nights;

but the Marshal's finally properly rebuilt DI-heart has thus far been willing to start (a tip here: a bit of isopropyl rubbing alcohol in the tank seems to do the trick for fuel-system water removal and anti-freeze).

The blessed beauty of fresh snowfall, just down the road from us:

Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS-s0580248small.jpg


But with it, a little recovery work:

Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS-wp_20151211_10_27_57_pro-small.jpg


With the Sumo taxi's rear spring-mounts (a.k.a. "mukhi") caught up on the culvert's edge, the Marshal had met its match - pulled it forward enough to get it out of immediate danger, but:

Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS-wp_20151211_10_46_53_pro-small.jpg


It was the tip-body of a dump truck that finally did the trick: ingeniously utilized to lift the taxi's right rear side enough to clear the mount, it allowed me (not the white 4x4 Marshal in the foreground, but the orange one barely visible behind the truck), wheels spinning wildly in reverse, to pull him fully up onto the pavement. The owner is an old fellow who does local taxi runs from Manali to Nehru-Kund. In fact, a very fortunate old fellow: if he'd run off the road several feet to either side of where he was (this had happened at 3AM), the car would surely have flipped upside down, and he could easily have broken his neck, if not drowned in the pools / frozen to death there.

The realities of hill-driving being what they are, the Marshal is becoming well-acquainted with these sorts of activities by now...

Merry Christmas from the snowbelt...

-Eric

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Old 27th December 2015, 07:43   #149
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Default Re: Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS

Dear Eric
Your pictures are awesome and say it all what life you guys are living. An update from this side.. Over the last few weeks I have been able to finish almost all mechanical work on engine, breaks, axles steering and bodywork. The rats had gnawed through most of the wiring so I laid my new loom with much lesser number of wires to do the same job. I found VV polo seats for the front for a mere 4k a pair in an excellent condition. Now just yesterday was my first trial cum trip from Delhi to Ludhiana and I enjoyed it. Just that the motor is noisy after 75kmph. I am still running 7.50 x 16 tyres and not yet upgraded to 9.00. The front end feels pretty stiff in comparison to my old 550. The power steering job is the only thing I did not do myself, and the job is very unsatisfactory. The steering is as hard as without an assist and will require another weekend in my lawn to fix. I will shortly put up pictures of the rig.
Regards
Vikrant
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Old 4th January 2016, 16:44   #150
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Default Re: Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS

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I laid my new loom with much lesser number of wires to do the same job.

Now just yesterday was my first trial cum trip from Delhi to Ludhiana and I enjoyed it. Just that the motor is noisy after 75kmph.

The front end feels pretty stiff in comparison to my old 550.

The power steering job is the only thing I did not do myself, and the job is very unsatisfactory.
Ha, that sounds pretty typical of the reason I try and do most work myself (though I must humbly admit that in truth I myself do not always succeed...).

Very eager to see your photos. Sounds as though you've gotten yours into shape in much less time than it took me (though ours was in active family use throughout most of that time).

I'm kind of thinking that if I could come across a set of 3.93:1 diff. gears for the Dana44's (someone here in the 4x4 forums had a set installed at one time), it'd cut down my rpms by a few hundred, and raise the "comfortable" cruising speed enough to be reasonable (80-85?), without excessively reducing available torque in low / reverse gears (high range). Certainly cheaper / simpler than the 5-speed conversion, and might have less negative effect on "breakover angles" etc, as the 4-speed is a lot shorter unit physically.

Our wiring's still a little sketchy... I've done a number of repairs over the past few years, and most things work most of the time ... I'd contemplated your own solution, just starting fresh on my own.

How many leafs in your front spring packs? Ours are down to six or seven from the 10-11 as delivered (albeit with considerable re-arching on a smaller radius), and the ride quality is quite reasonable on any road, and not excessively prone to bottoming on rough tracks either (Paris-Dakar-style offroad would be another thing). An added benefit of the softness is increased articulation and thus grip on uneven surfaces. Feels about "right". Rears very plush with only three in the main pack, and two in the helpers below. I've got the longer Mahindra Maxx shackles to restore the ride height a bit, though honestly the springs were not properly arched last time and need to be re-done. Lots of body-roll in the turns on-road, but otherwise fine. Debating whether to install a rear anti-roll bar (which could be easily detached in off-road settings or when maximum articulation is required) or else put one main leaf back in the main packs.

Thanks again, am enjoying this exchange, and moreover great to find a paper-pusher still willing to get his hands dirty. If you want a REAL trial-run, why not take a break from the smog and head up our way (wet/snowy weather predicted this week, surely with more to come later)? Would be great to meet up; But dangit, now you're going to have to install a heater!

I still need to get our headliner done; and I'm hearing strange rumors that 15-year-old diesel vehicles in H.P. will no longer be given passing for registration renewals... for which ours is due in April, I think. Hope it's a viscous, untrue rumor, or else that the powers-that-be will wake up and realize that removing the small handful of lightly-driven private diesel BSII vehicles still plying in the state is not going to make one iota of difference for air quality... (my self-designed low-polluting, low-consumption home-heating wood stove certainly does, and it could benefit on a huge scale, but that's another story)...

-Eric

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