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Old 26th May 2015, 15:39   #121
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Default Re: Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS

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Originally Posted by ringoism View Post
Any comments appreciated, if any of the Jeep guys out there have fooled with cross member mods.
Hi Eric,

The NGCS and its respective cross member are stronger than the older Mahindras.

If you Notice your cross member is closed along the Inverted Hat Channel face.

This closed Cross member may act as a skid plate but it is not a Skid Plate.

Please fix a skid plate to cover the leading and trailing edge of the cross member.

You can raise the Transmission a few inches or flush with the chassis by fabricating custom Tube Cross members, like a belly pan.

This may require a mild Body lift and resetting the rear pinion angle.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 25th June 2015, 15:32   #122
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Default Re: Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS

The head gasket installed back in December proved to be leaking just slightly after the return to Manali. No coolant in the oil or vice-versa, and no real symptoms at idle speed, BUT under load (like every time we have to drive uphill), combustion leakage into the water jacket is evident. First effect was that pressurized air leaking into the block side of the cooling system was:

1) holding the thermostat shut; and 2) displacing coolant, causing overheating and also forcing that displaced coolant out into the overflow tank, filling it to overflowing.

Before I understood what was happening and why, I'd replaced the thermostat, thinking it faulty - which of course didn't help. Ran fine without the thermostat, since air escaping into the head area was free to flow up to the top of the radiator and out into the overflow tank. Lot better to let air out than water!!! But without the thermostat, the engine never really gets up to temperature, thus impurities / deposits in the oil and on the valves, etc, probably never get evaporated / burned off, and of course clearances between hot pistons and relatively cooler cylinders are going to be too tight, and etc, etc... so not good for long-term health.

So I changed the head gasket myself, getting the head re-faced this time (it was suprisingly out for a cast-iron piece). Unfortunately, leakage situation didn't improve. Ran it a month or two, researched some, and figured I'd try again. This time did some hand-facing of the block deck with plate glass and emery cloth, as liner stand-out (protrusion of the cylinder sleeves above the block deck) was not consistent between cylinders and I figured I could even them up this way. Seems to be within a thousandth flatness overall now, though the liners are hardly above deck. Used a little aluminum paint on the steel rings of the head gasket, with some .010" copper wire attached under the rings, and some special sealer elsewhere.

Frustratingly, STILL DIDN'T WORK.

Thinking I'd overdone the juggad a little, tried again a few days later, this time with an original, untreated genuine Mahindra gasket.

DIDN'T WORK.
In fact exhibits much more leakage than earlier. Starting to wonder if it's something other than the head gasket (imperceptible crack in cylinder liner? Wish I'd bought that spray-can of Magnaflux I saw last time I was at Ajmeri gate, Delhi).

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So here I am, few days of labor, two trips to Mandi, and some paise later: Almost complete, well-running vehicle that unfortunately has this internal leakage issue and thus is not suitable for anything but limited local use. Doesn't overheat anyway, nor push water out so long as the thermostat's out. I can still drive through our overflowed river and still pull tourists out of the local drains regularly...But not going to attempt crossing over Rohtang if it's like this.

So gotta either:

1) Figure this out, or

2) Risk a few hours' drive to Mandi and let them dismantle / examine / machine / replace / reassemble everything (but not sure whether even the best guys there have the facilities to check for micro-cracks or to re-machine things like sleeve shelves (counterbores), or if they have things like sleeve shims, so no real guarantees there as to whether I might get the same "chalega" approach and have the problem reappear again in a few months, as has happened with the "specialist" in Chandigarh....); or

3) Buy a second-hand replacement engine, whether another 15-year-old DI unit (being quoted Rs25,0000 complete, which seems high in light of the presently quite high supply / low-demand situation here), or a 2011-model MDI3200TC turbocharged unit at 45,000, including the larger radiator and silencer/pipe etc (currently mounted in a Mahindra Maxx people-carrier, which is pretty similar to the Marshal except for the body width).

Can hear both these engines run before purchase, and both come with a guarantee. And incidentally, as per a personal conversation with the RTO earlier, there doesn't seem to be any issues obtaining permission for the turbo upgrade - important as the car will have to go for passing next year (15 years).

Really wish this could've been resolved with a Rs450 head gasket and a few hours' labor, but we're way beyond that.

ANY IDEAS?

I'm basically satisfied with the standard DI's performance, and if it's built right, it is supposed to be one of the most robust / reliable / simple engines out there. If I'd be able to get my issue resolved with my original block, I'd be happy and would spend a lot less money than going for a replacement.

On the other hand, no denying that the turbo really has what feels like the "right" amount of power for this weight of car, and I'd be able to run it as-is, an un-opened, original, four-year-old engine, vs. having to deal with the unknown levels of juggad that have been applied to any non-turbo DI, which will be a minimum of ten or eleven years old by now and most heavily used. And what I'm finding so far with most things on this car is that when I get a couple things resolved, at least one new issue shows up to deal with.

What I'd REALLY like to have is the M&M company service manual, which would tell me the specs for things such as cylinder liner protrusion, etc. Found them for what I guess is its predecessor, the old International Harvester D-414 series engines (same displacement and presumably basic block) - but not sure those would be the same on all points.


Thanks in advance,
Eric

Last edited by ringoism : 25th June 2015 at 15:58.
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Old 25th June 2015, 16:16   #123
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Default Re: Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS

Just a couple photos:

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One of the block, and one of the head here.

This was at "stage 2" where I'd resurfaced the head and put in a good-quality Victor head gasket. Obviously the gasket wasn't getting as well compressed on the number 1 cylinder as opposed to the rest; can't see anyplace where the combustion gases were clearly getting through, but it's likely the leak is in cyl. 1, as there were signs that cylinder was also running hotter than the rest (less effective cooling with all the air escaping around that sleeve?). Have a feeling I removed too much material from the other 3 liners in the process of trying to even them up (have heard height should be within .002" between adjacent cylinders, which is what I was aiming at) and that perhaps more than one of the sealing rings are not getting well enough compressed now. New liners only cost something like Rs1500/set, so don't mind replacing them (again) - maybe getting the block surfaced at the same time, since even the brand-new M&M sleeves installed at Chandigarh seemed to be sitting too low in the case of cyl. #1. Was the sleeve defective, or its seat (counterbore) defective or never machined right in the first place, or ???

Can't know unless we open it again - completely. But then the trouble is in knowing who can repair it PROPERLY.

Have a feeling this is going to require a lot of careful inspection / measuring / machining to get all the sleeves at the height they're supposed to be, and thus the gasket compressed as much as it's supposed to be. In retrospect, if I'd had some sheets of precision shim material on hand, I could've cut out a ring to put under the #1 liner and raise it up enough for it to be properly compressed. Could've done all that in-car without much trouble. Beyond that now.

So does anyone know whether typical Indian machine shops actually do adjust the height on these sleeves (liners)? Or do they just torque down harder on the head bolts and hope everything holds? I ask because I know a case of a Peugeot-powered Commander with the same symptoms, where the workshop after some failed attempts finally just told them to get another second-hand block.

The guys I'm in contact with in Mandi, when I ask, are just telling me, "bring the car here, we'll open it and see". Not very reassuring. Which is why I'm debating whether to just try and do the work myself (again)...

-Eric

Last edited by ringoism : 25th June 2015 at 16:22.
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Old 26th June 2015, 12:43   #124
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Default Re: Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS

Are you sure that the cylinder liner should protrude out of the block? Best to go where these engines are overhauled and check with the mechanics/machine shop.

In my experience, liners do not protrude out of the block, so that could be your problem. Most probably the liner(s) were changed after wearing out and they did not fit them properly.

To check if the head-block face is the culprit, you can do is the following
. Procure a sheet of lead or make one out of hard solder, about 3mm thick.
. Cut holes corresponding to the OEM gasket.
. Place the sheet on the block and the gasket over it without any glue.
. Put the head and tighten all the bolts to recommended torque.
. Start the engine and run it for 2-3 minutes.
. Open the head.

Now with a micrometer measure the thickness of the lead sheet. If there is any depression between the head and the block, it will show up as thicker region.

In case the head-block face is fine, you have a leakage in the block.
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Old 27th June 2015, 21:52   #125
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Default Re: Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS

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Originally Posted by Aroy View Post
Are you sure that the cylinder liner should protrude out of the block? Best to go where these engines are overhauled and check with the mechanics/machine shop.

To check if the head-block face is the culprit, you can do is the following....

Now with a micrometer measure the thickness of the lead sheet. If there is any depression between the head and the block, it will show up as thicker region.

In case the head-block face is fine, you have a leakage in the block.
Sister-in-law is visiting from Mizoram for a few days, so thought, "The heck with a little internal leakage, we've gotta go somewhere". Figured it would go the distance, and fortunately I was right. Ran fine, no overheating or significant coolant loss:

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I think I arrived at the same thing as your proposed "lead-sheet" method, by checking for flatness with a straight-edge across the block and a feeler gauge. There were no depressions more than .0015", which should be good enough (rule of thumb is .004" max out-of-flatness for a 4-cyl. engine). Also measured the compressed metal rings of the old gasket, which seal on the liners (only). Not more than a few thousandths variation at any point, and considering that the new gasket is compressing down more than .010", hard to see how that much would matter.

Few places in my liners are maybe .001" below the deck (less gasket compression where we need it in this case), but mechanic friend who inspected thinks they're fine like that.

The old International engines on which the MDI is based were supposed to have .003"-.007" sleeve protrusion, and at any rate, if the protrusion were excessive in this case, it would cause leakages between the water jacket & oil chamber, NOT the cylinder and the water jacket as I'm experiencing. This is because excessive protrusion (stand-out) would clamp down harder on the "fire-rings" in the gasket, to where they're fully compressed and sealing well, but also holding the head up to where the composite gasket around them isn't compressed enough to seal the oil & water passages; I've got no mixing of oil/coolant, so that's not my problem.

A crack in the block wouldn't manifest in this way, either, since in this design compression gases actually have no contact with the block, only the liners, head, pistons, and gasket.

A crack in the head could cause my problem, but not finding any, and MDI heads (being cast-iron) are not prone to it. When they do crack, a machinist told me, they crack visibly on the exterior, on the exhaust side.

Anyway.

I'm actually tending to think I might have a little crack (could be so small as to hardly be visible to the naked eye) somewhere in one of the cylinder liners, maybe #1, since that's the one that was running hotter than the rest, and also the one that (as you can see from the marking pen marks in the photo) seemed to be protruding on the front side, but not on the rear (which is weird). And since these are wet liners, they have direct contact with the coolant, and are actually pretty thin castings.

I probably made a mistake earlier by excessively advancing the IP timing. Sometimes with old IP's that due to slight internal leakages build pressure more slowly than they should, advancing them a few degrees can compensate and allow the injectors to fire when they actually should be. But getting a better look at the timing marks when I had the intake manifold off, I think I went too far. Read online the other day that for every 2degrees advance, cylinder pressure increases by 500psi!!! Ouch!!! Apparently this can damage a lot of things - in my case, rest of the engine's unharmed - pistons look good and the oil pressure (re: bearings/crank)'s good. But excessive cyl. pressure under high load highway conditions might've caused a liner crack or???

Got to get this sorted soon. Local mechanic friend says he's 101% sure he can get it right if he puts his own hands to it - that without a machine shop. He, too, suspects a liner, and I've still got my old set which were almost new when removed in Chandigarh. Says if he doesn't succeed, he won't charge me the two days' labor it'll take. Worth a try, maybe.

Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS-wp_20150618_13_16_39_pro_stitch-25sm.jpg

Two weeks ago went to the high village of Malana (Parvati Valley), and not feeling confident re: this leakage issue, left the Marshal at home in lieu of a friend's Alto. Figured it'd do okay with FWD and decent ground clearance. WRONG! Barely succeeded in getting there, and not without some real abuse to the car. Saw a (2WD) XUV500 also having a terrible time of it, a Delhiite driving an Audi crossover was also complaining; And I kept thinking how easily the Marshal would've negotiated those loose, uneven, steep, silty slopes, probably even in 2WD.

Got Dharamsala in our sights and pre-monsoon would be better, so hope this mechanic is right.

-Eric

Last edited by ringoism : 27th June 2015 at 21:55.
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Old 28th June 2015, 10:40   #126
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Default Re: Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS

If the liner is cracked and leaking, that cylinder would have lower compression. Just check the compression on a cold and hot engine. A slight variation is always there, but if it is around 10% difference then there is a problem.

On point that occurred to me. Are the valve seats and sleeves tight? They at times are a source of leaks.
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Old 29th June 2015, 10:46   #127
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Default Re: Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS

Dear Eric - for XDP4.90 engine, new liners and pistons with rings are available as a set. Just replace the whole thing. I had got it done at the Jodhpur dealership OS Motors on my Great Escape CJ340 MH01P2540. The whole thing took one full day and the engine became brand new. Don't waste your time otherwise.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 30th June 2015, 10:58   #128
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Default Re: Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS

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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear Eric - for XDP4.90 engine,
Sir,
His is NGCS Marshal which came with Di engine not XDP4.90. BTW same logic should apply to Di engine as well.

Regards,
Shubhendra Singh
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Old 2nd July 2015, 16:15   #129
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Default Re: Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS

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3) Buy a second-hand replacement engine, whether another 15-year-old DI unit (being quoted Rs25,0000 complete, which seems high in light of the presently quite high supply / low-demand situation here), or a 2011-model MDI3200TC turbocharged unit at 45,000, including the larger radiator and silencer/pipe etc (currently mounted in a Mahindra Maxx people-carrier, which is pretty similar to the Marshal except for the body width).
Hi Eric,

MDI3200TC, is the way to go, the Low-end grunt is not a aggressive as the MDI, but the Mid-Range and relative refinements are worth the headache.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 2nd July 2015, 18:20   #130
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Default Re: Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS

Is there anybody selling used rebuilt diesel motors in India that will give a warranty?
Is there anyway you can get a compression test and/or be reasonably assured you are purchasing a fresh engine and not another problem?

What do you look for, how do you inspect a prospective engine transplant, particularly MDI3200tc, in India?
I am nosing around right now for a MM550 so I am interested.

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Old 6th July 2015, 01:26   #131
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Default Re: Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS

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Originally Posted by Aroy View Post
If the liner is cracked and leaking, that cylinder would have lower compression. Just check the compression on a cold and hot engine. A slight variation is always there, but if it is around 10% difference then there is a problem.

On point that occurred to me. Are the valve seats and sleeves tight? They at times are a source of leaks.
Thanks for your thoughts here. Did you mean "a slight variation" between cylinders, or between hot/cold results?

According to various online resources, a compression test is not sufficient to identify cracks / casting flaws / etc if they're small/minor (which I think this is, since I didn't notice any liner cracks when I had the head off), since compression pressure might only be in the range of a few hundred psi, where actual combustion pressures in diesels can be a couple thousand psi and can push gases through to the water jacket that would not manifest in a normal compression test.

Valve work was all done recently, and at any rate AFAIK would not represent a path between the combustion chamber and water jacket, which SHOULD only be possible if/when combustion pressures are leaking either past the fire-rings on the head-gasket, or else through cracks in head/liners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear Eric - for XDP4.90 engine, new liners and pistons with rings are available as a set. Just replace the whole thing. I had got it done at the Jodhpur dealership OS Motors on my Great Escape CJ340 MH01P2540. The whole thing took one full day and the engine became brand new. Don't waste your time otherwise.
Many thanks, sir. Liners were actually replaced twice so far, the first time along with pistons/rings... good quality USHA stuff, second time with M&M liners at C'garh. Could've cracked afterwards, of course, since I did probably have the timing excessively advanced, likely with correspondingly high cylinder pressures. Wish I had a can of magnaflux to check for cracks there. Or there could be a crack in some unusual part of the head, like the exhaust port (would be extremely rare, but...).

Ah, this is such a pain, besides being a bit baffling...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
MDI3200TC, is the way to go, the Low-end grunt is not a aggressive as the MDI, but the Mid-Range and relative refinements are worth the headache.
Been thinking along those lines, though it's my most costly option. RTO has said it's okay (permission grantable) as far as the technology goes. However (not inquired yet), I'm under the impression that a transplant would only be possible in the case of the donor being a total-loss vehicle, is that right? Could probably find such with a little time, but the Maxx I found is complete/undamaged, only four years old, and no documents... seems a little questionable to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDan View Post
Is there anybody selling used rebuilt diesel motors in India that will give a warranty?
Is there anyway you can get a compression test and/or be reasonably assured you are purchasing a fresh engine and not another problem?
All excellent questions... all as yet unanswered. BTW, this engine issue is the thing preventing us getting over to Dharamsala...

The MDI3200TC I found is in a car and I can hear it run, comes with some guarantee (long enough to try it out a few weeks or whatever)... but as mentioned above, am a little concerned about the car's history.

There was a total-loss pickup sitting roadside nearby for probably 18months till finally being towed off (apparently by the insurance company) this past winter. That one had only 41,000km done, and I wish now I'd done what I'd always been tempted to do, and inquired about it.

-Eric

Last edited by ringoism : 6th July 2015 at 01:44.
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Old 6th July 2015, 16:41   #132
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Default Re: Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS

About 6 years ago I came close to buying a MM550 down in Moga, Punjab. It sounded good to me. It accelerated well. Then, right at the end of my test drive its MDI3200 engine started smoking badly at idle while its owner and I were discussing terms....a nice sky blue color that happened to match my shirt. Despite the fashion coordination, I decided not to buy it. I thought I had a good ear for stuff like that. Seems I don't.

There has to be RELIABLE people in the Punjab that do engine work, rebuilds etc.....'ay?
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Old 6th July 2015, 18:01   #133
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Default Re: Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS

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engine started smoking badly at idle while its owner and I were discussing terms.....'ay?
What does this signify? Smoke at idle.
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Old 6th July 2015, 18:42   #134
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What does this signify? Smoke at idle.

Bad rings, engine burning oil, with an attempt to hide this with some heavy motor oil and/or "engine doctor" chemicals. Probably a tired old engine in general as well. It did not start to smoke until it was good and hot, running for about 30 minutes. This is my best guess, and guess is what it is.
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Old 28th August 2015, 02:40   #135
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Latest here (three days under and around the car):

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Net effect of the really bad local roads the past couple years, and of the previous 10+ of taxi duties on the same:

Three ball joints
Two tie rod ends
One relay rod
Three differential seals
Four spindle/hub seals
Two spindle bushes
One stub axle
One spindle
Probably a couple of U-joints and a few other things I've forgotten.

Have had this growing feeling that I should've just bought a new 4x4 Camper three years back when we got this. They were only 5.2Lakhs at that time and would've been a lot less trouble. But then I wouldn't have enjoyed all this FUN - 1) the education; 2) the social contacts (parts wallahs and mechanics); 3) all those days/weeks under and around the car.

Must say, the car's driving much better now, and with a lot of re-paving having occurred the past few months, am hoping it'll hold up a while.


Persistent engine leakage issues outlined previously finally SOLVED!!! Had a crack in the #1 cylinder liner as it turns out. Guy overseeing when I disassembled it (again) in Mandi found it in about five seconds, and that while talking on his mobile to someone else. Think the Manimajra (Chandigarh) guys messed this up by: a) not getting the head facing done, as it was quite bowed in the middle / tight on the ends; and b) probably severely overtorquing the head gasket (no torque wrench used) and thus cracking the new, genuine M&M liner around the top edge.

Someone (CODELUST) had suggested way back, before I rebuilt the engine a couple years ago, that I might take the car to Mandi for the work; not knowing a particular shop there did it myself, but likely would've had a lot less trouble if I'd have taken that advice. Can highly recommend Namdhari Auto - up on a hill there, off the highway so relatively dust-free, with friendly staff and a huge parts supply.

I did most of the work there myself with the help of a young engineering student from our village; but with a little oversight / advice / occasional hands-on-help from the head machinist there, Somi. He's been doing this work from the age of 11, and knows his stuff.

Car really is running well now, though as always there's more work to come (need to get the IP done up well at some point, and the headliner, and going to put a larger front sway bar and one on the rear, also, having removed one from a Bolero Plus.

Our Marshal DI 4x4 NGCS-carrier-rails.jpg

One final detail is of my roof rails here - salvaged from the scrapyard, these are aluminum extrusions that I've simply attached with a bead of silicone RTV and screws. Make the roof more rigid for luggage, which is basically held from sliding around by the side/end rails. Seems to work well.

Thanks,
Eric

Last edited by ringoism : 28th August 2015 at 02:41.
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