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Old 28th November 2012, 15:25   #46
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Default Re: A Biker to a Jeeper - Mahindra Thar Crde

sir,

Seems you ran EXAMM with Geolander AT and Tata sumo 4wd fixed flange.

Break up gradation was quoted @ 60000/- rs. After severe brain storming with you and spike, we completed for 15000/- rs.

Brake upgradation was so essential for us, as we where running with a different animals heart in the body !!.

For me, stock break set up is fine if drove sensibly .

Last edited by Rajith : 28th November 2012 at 15:34.
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Old 28th November 2012, 16:06   #47
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sir, Seems you ran EXAMM with Geolander AT and Tata sumo 4wd fixed flange. For me, stock brake set up is fine if drove sensibly.
Dear Rajith - I drove EXAMM with JK 245/75R16 tires from Scorpio Double Cab (Getaway). They were not Geolanders or anything fancy, they were regular production tires! Complete production vehicle is fine if driven sensibly, but with Thar CRDe, you tend to push, as the vehicle continuously delivers the "Smooth Silent Surge" of Power, so it pushes you. Once you go beyond your limit, that's when the trouble starts. This power under your right foot must be used responsibly, which needs precise control from the operator. The human mind is the best brake!.

Yes, the flanges were from the Sumo 4WD, , the fasteners were borrowed from the Nasik die shop tool crib due to a superior grade required to take the shock loads during the quick clutch engagements required to pass through the stages. The quality and quantity of sealant used was also similarly controlled. Ironic, isn't it? Well, that's how detailed we need to go into, when we do "Engineering Prototyping". I hope people understand.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 28th November 2012, 17:01   #48
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Default Re: A Biker to a Jeeper - Mahindra Thar Crde

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I had mentioned this before also. The ballpark figure would stop just short of being completely insane as you would deal with spare parts cost which go through the roof for all sorts of inexplicable reasons. One TeamBHPian attempted to do the brakes but then backed off after knowing the cost. I could do it as I had to demonstrate the prowess of the platform to myself and moreover I did not have to pay for it! clap. .
Sir, I hope you won't take what I am about to write in the wrong manner. I don't believe in a perfect world where everything right that can happen always happens. I am only too familiar with corporate realities as a part of my work and having spent 2-weeks in the wilderness of Lakdah with a Thar and being throughly awed by what the vehicle, even in its compromised form, is capable of, you can say I am very much a fan of the vehicle.

I also realize that the platform is your pride and joy and that MH01V521 is a true interpretation of what it could have been and like anyone who has built something spectacular you can't help but refer to it whenever the shortcomings of the product in the market is discussed.

But, as much as I am irked by people who dismiss the platform for the umpteenth time, citing its well documented shortcomings (quite unhelpful after the first million instances), I'm irked in a similar manner when MH01V521 is brought up as an unattainable (or infeasible) option for the many owners. For a customer who already owns the product such an answer only serves to reinforce the half-baked feeling for a product she/he has paid a premium and for someone like me who is considering it is a future option, such an answer gives us no definite point of reference to work with - be it costs or the quantum of work involved. In short, either answer is quite unhelpful.

Anyway, this is an ownership thread, so I don't want to go too far down this off-topic route. And as a peace offering I'll share with you another picture of your pride and joy in the wilderness.

A Biker to a Jeeper - Mahindra Thar Crde-dscf4051.jpg
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Old 28th November 2012, 17:39   #49
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Sir, I hope you won't take what I am about to write in the wrong manner. I don't believe in a perfect world where everything right that can happen always happens. I am only too familiar with corporate realities as a part of my work and having spent 2-weeks in the wilderness of Lakdah with a Thar and being throughly awed by what the vehicle, even in its compromised form, is capable of, you can say I am very much a fan of the vehicle.

I also realize that the platform is your pride and joy and that MH01V521 is a true interpretation of what it could have been and like anyone who has built something spectacular you can't help but refer to it whenever the shortcomings of the product in the market is discussed.

But, as much as I am irked by people who dismiss the platform for the umpteenth time, citing its well documented shortcomings (quite unhelpful after the first million instances), I'm irked in a similar manner when MH01V521 is brought up as an unattainable (or infeasible) option for the many owners. For a customer who already owns the product such an answer only serves to reinforce the half-baked feeling for a product she/he has paid a premium and for someone like me who is considering it is a future option, such an answer gives us no definite point of reference to work with - be it costs or the quantum of work involved. In short, either answer is quite unhelpful.

Anyway, this is an ownership thread, so I don't want to go too far down this off-topic route. And as a peace offering I'll share with you another picture of your pride and joy in the wilderness.
Dear Codelust - I don't ever feel bad about anything! I have gone through a lot of trials and tribulations and still pursued and realized my passion for automobiles, so please don't worry yaar! My reply is as follows:

My "mentor", the one person I look up to as my role model, walked on stage and asked around 450 of us sitting in the audience. "Hi guys, how are things"? After we gave him a standing ovation, we somehow took in the sheer presence and the charisma and settled down, he asked us this question: "What is it that makes you come to work everyday? Why do you guys and girls come to work every day"? After an extremely healthy interactive session which lasted for around two hours, the answer was - "Doing the tesk, doing the task better, doing the task the best become one and the same thing. IN THE END, THERE IS NO END".

So, 521 or no 521, this vehicle is my pride and joy. I did it because I wanted to do it, period. It has become the pride and joy of many people.

So, do the task, do the task better, do the task the best. It becomes one and the same thing. That's what I aim for. Finally, in the end, there is no end. And thanks for the photograph!

I know that you will read Sir, so THANK YOU FOR EVERYTHING!

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 30th November 2012, 18:00   #50
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Default Re: A Biker to a Jeeper - Mahindra Thar Crde

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I also realize that the platform is your pride and joy and that MH01V521 is a true interpretation of what it could have been and like anyone who has built something spectacular you can't help but refer to it whenever the shortcomings of the product in the market is discussed.

...I'm irked in a similar manner when MH01V521 is brought up as an unattainable (or infeasible) option for the many owners.
This is my understanding from the numerous posts regarding this issue. Mr. Dhabhar was instrumental in the concept and development of the Thar. However, he was not the only man involved. As we see every day, the red-tapism, target-fulfilment, blah-blah can dilute a truly well-engineered product on its way to a customer. Almost every subsystem/component can be altered to just barely meet costs, feasibility, quality(?). What we ultimately get may not be what Mr. Dhabhar personally foresaw for the Thar.

521 was Mr. BD's personal test-mule, built to his standards. Serial production of 521 may not have been feasible. What Mr. Dhabhar is trying his level best to do is simply help each individual customer reach 521's level of finesse by personally reach out to them. Affordability of this process is not his prerogative. Pricing of various components is not in his control. Heck, from another thread we know that its even none of his business to help Thar owners, but he still struggles on!

Now I don't personally know Mr. BD, or have even interacted with him on this forum. But from what I read, his advice to all of us comes from the heart, from someone who not only understands what he does, but loves every moment of it. But advice is free, so we can take it or leave it.

When Mr. BD has himself mentioned that he will only buy the Thar when it comes at a reasonable (to him) price, everyone sees the point that the Thar is overpriced. The BD-mods are just suggestions, not obligations.

I hope I'm not offending any sensibilities here, and that this will be taken in the right spirit Just stating my opinion from the various threads I've been reading.

Cheers,
Rahul

PS: I don't own a Thar, never driven in an OTR, and my only ride has two wheels, is sixteen years old and may be outlawed soon.
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Old 1st December 2012, 10:37   #51
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Default Re: A Biker to a Jeeper - Mahindra Thar Crde

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This is my understanding from the numerous posts regarding this issue. Mr. Dhabhar was instrumental in the concept and development of the Thar. However, he was not the only man involved. As we see every day, the red-tapism, target-fulfilment, blah-blah can dilute a truly well-engineered product on its way to a customer. Almost every subsystem/component can be altered to just barely meet costs, feasibility, quality(?). What we ultimately get may not be what Mr. Dhabhar personally foresaw for the Thar.

521 was Mr. BD's personal test-mule, built to his standards. Serial production of 521 may not have been feasible. What Mr. Dhabhar is trying his level best to do is simply help each individual customer reach 521's level of finesse by personally reach out to them. Affordability of this process is not his prerogative. Pricing of various components is not in his control. Heck, from another thread we know that its even none of his business to help Thar owners, but he still struggles on!

Now I don't personally know Mr. BD, or have even interacted with him on this forum. But from what I read, his advice to all of us comes from the heart, from someone who not only understands what he does, but loves every moment of it. But advice is free, so we can take it or leave it.

When Mr. BD has himself mentioned that he will only buy the Thar when it comes at a reasonable (to him) price, everyone sees the point that the Thar is overpriced. The BD-mods are just suggestions, not obligations.

I hope I'm not offending any sensibilities here, and that this will be taken in the right spirit Just stating my opinion from the various threads I've been reading.

Cheers,
Rahul

PS: I don't own a Thar, never driven in an OTR, and my only ride has two wheels, is sixteen years old and may be outlawed soon.
Dear Rahul - you have summed up the whole thing extremely well. It is not only the "red tapism / target fulfilment / blah blah" it goes much deeper and it is a lot more murkier. For some silly reason (which only they know), people spend most of their energy trying to stop products from hitting the showrooms in the guise of "strategy / business case / tooling cost / resource crunch / blah blah". Answers to all these questions can be found by using a little bit of common sense. Alas! .

Dear Codelust and all - the bottom line is that the thingy is selling and people are enjoying it, period. By mentioning 521, I have made customers like you aware that the "bar can be raised". There is a good team out there, trying to do good things, I wish them all the best. A better Thar will make me still more happy! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

PS - the Thar is sub 4 meter. Simple common sense tells you that plonking a sub 1500 cc engine in it will be the most logical thingy to do from the "business" point of view. You don't need rocket science to understand this. But, would it be correct from the "customer" point of view? THINK GUYS!
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Old 2nd December 2012, 13:41   #52
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Default Re: A Biker to a Jeeper - Mahindra Thar Crde

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Break up gradation was quoted @ 60000/- rs. After severe brain storming with you and spike, we completed for 15000/- rs.

For me, stock break set up is fine if drove sensibly .
Dear Rajith,

15000 seems to be a fair price for the upgrade. However, given the 1year warranty period I'm wondering if I should just run the stock setup and drive sensibly until then. Will call you some day to discuss the best option.

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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
This power under your right foot must be used responsibly, which needs precise control from the operator. The human mind is the best brake!.
You're right, about the mind brakes. I always believe in anticipated and cautious braking and fortunately have never been in a dangerous situation yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
By mentioning 521, I have made customers like you aware that the "bar can be raised". A better Thar will make me still more happy! .
Somehow, raising the bar on safety for the Thar seems to be missing in the Mahindra Rise strategy, hopefully someone will take notice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
PS - the Thar is sub 4 meter. Simple common sense tells you that plonking a sub 1500 cc engine in it will be the most logical thingy to do from the "business" point of view. You don't need rocket science to understand this. But, would it be correct from the "customer" point of view? THINK GUYS!
This was one of the reasons why I didn't want to wait for the Thar until next year. You never know when Mahindra would choose to put the 1.5L engine and make it a passenger jeep rather than a capable off-roader.

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Originally Posted by Salikt View Post
I saw an online thread in 'fast track' in Manorama news, a kerala based TV website, that Fiat is planning to launch Jeep Wrangler and Jeep Cherokee by next year. Any clue?
Sadiq, honestly it doesn't really matter, this has been discussed before as well. Even if the Wrangler is launched in India, the price point wouldn't make it feasible to be a common man's jeep for off-road events. Anything above the 10-12L bracket means it would be competing with the XUVs/Scorpios and the Stormes for positioning and the market is going to be very very niche.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:16   #53
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Default Re: A Biker to a Jeeper - Mahindra Thar Crde

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This was one of the reasons why I didn't want to wait for the Thar until next year. You never know when Mahindra would choose to put the 1.5L engine and make it a passenger jeep rather than a capable off-roader.
Dear Amolpol - Thanks for providing the "Customer Voice". I agree with you here. The "Capable Offroader" must not get converted to a "Passenger Jeep", with all the "Corporate **** ****" that happens all over the place all the time! You (and I) can only hope that good sense prevails and only the best happens to this vehicle. .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:48   #54
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Default Re: A Biker to a Jeeper - Mahindra Thar Crde

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Dear Amolpol - Thanks for providing the "Customer Voice". I agree with you here. The "Capable Offroader" must not get converted to a "Passenger Jeep", with all the "Corporate **** ****" that happens all over the place all the time! You (and I) can only hope that good sense prevails and only the best happens to this vehicle. .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
sir,

ultimate aim of a company is to make money, today Mahindra 2 wheeler came, me & mom came, mahindra housing came , no surprise if we see Mahindra top loading/ front loading washing machine or a Mixer/grinder in future with all the "Corporate **** ****" that happens all over the place all the time!.

Last edited by Rajith : 3rd December 2012 at 11:49.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:58   #55
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Dear Rajith,

15000 seems to be a fair price for the upgrade. However, given the 1year warranty period I'm wondering if I should just run the stock setup and drive sensibly until then. Will call you some day to discuss the best option.
Half of the ASC guys wont understand the change in brake booster or any other part if u do so .

Warranty is nothing but the way you put up the case.If you drive sensibly stock set up is more than enough..

Last edited by Rajith : 3rd December 2012 at 11:59.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 12:34   #56
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Dear Amolpol - Thanks for providing the "Customer Voice". I agree with you here. The "Capable Offroader" must not get converted to a "Passenger Jeep", with all the "Corporate **** ****" that happens all over the place all the time! You (and I) can only hope that good sense prevails and only the best happens to this vehicle. .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
Hello BD Sir,
Could you please elaborate on the above post. I was of the opinion that plonking the 1.5L engine was a logical step forward.

Spec of Thar-
Power - 105 H.P. @3800 RPM
Torque - 247 Nm @1800-2000 RPM.

Spec of Quanto -
Power - 100BHP@3750 RPM
Torque - 240Nm@1600-2800 RPM

Here's a 1.5L engine that makes 95% of the power and 97% torque @ similar rpm,in an engine that's 40% smaller,compared to the 2.5L engine.

The fact that the 1.5L is derived from the 2.2L Mhawk whereas the 2.5L is derived from old 2.6L Crde, also works to its advantage. Not to mention the advantage of weight & smaller engine will have on performance, fuel efficiency & emissions.

More ever Mahindra can price it lower,make it VFM,which I believe it is not today. Or maybe introduce ABS at the same price

I admit, I'm not an offroader(yet), therefore I don't know how it will affect it's offload-worthiness.

BD Sir, I hope I've not offended you in any way. Just seeking some much needed knowledge.
Mods - I know this post deviates from amol's ownership thread, but would appreciate if this post is not deleted.
Sorry Amol.


Regards,
Varun

Last edited by powertrain : 3rd December 2012 at 12:40.
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Old 10th December 2012, 00:30   #57
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Hello BD Sir,
Could you please elaborate on the above post. I was of the opinion that plonking the 1.5L engine was a logical step forward.

Spec of Thar-
Power - 105 H.P. @3800 RPM
Torque - 247 Nm @1800-2000 RPM.

Spec of Quanto -
Power - 100BHP@3750 RPM
Torque - 240Nm@1600-2800 RPM

Here's a 1.5L engine that makes 95% of the power and 97% torque @ similar rpm,in an engine that's 40% smaller,compared to the 2.5L engine.
Dear Powertrain, I believe there is an existing thread which talks about the 4cyl vs 3cyl use in today's scenario. The power delivery is not just about the numerical values but also about the way in which it is delivered and the refinement offered by the higher no. of cylinders even with same/similar output figures.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...er-engine.html (Car with four cylinder engine or three cylinder engine?)

Coming back to my ownership thread, I was able to procure the Innova last row jump seats from Shivajinagar yesterday in pretty decent condition.
  • Will now have to find a decent installer who can fix them for me. Suggestions?
  • Also, since those seats are beige, I have to get the seat covers changed to match the black front seats and add a little foam all over. Any suggestions for a budget seat maker in Bangalore?

I did check with Koyas for their seat designs but didn't really like the bench seat designs, the Bimbra guys had a lot of variety and I did like a couple of designs but was not 100% convinced that it was worth all that effort. Most of the front facing bench seats were without neck restraints and really short on the back support, bucket seats were ruled out as an option since they would just block away all the space at the rear. So finally I decided to stick with the original plan of the Innova seats for the flexibility and comfort they offer. Hope I'm not going to be disappointed with the final outcome.

BTW, the jeep is doing okay so far in the 1200 odd kms that I've used it. I'm getting used to the soft braking and feel that the ride quality has improved a bit too. Just today my wife commented that the rear seats were not as "jumpy" as before so I guess the suspension is starting to settle down.

I'm planning to make a trip to the ASC before the scheduled first service to check/fix a few minor issues:

- The headlights are not calibrated and need focusing adjustments badly.
- The tyres touching on a full U-turn, need to understand what can be done.
- The soft top has a small patch near the roof which looks to have gone hard and brittle. I'm sure it will start tearing up from there soon if left unattended. Not sure if this will be covered under warranty since I believe it should have been there right from the beginning and was unnoticed due to its position.
- The gear shifts are not smooth all the time, almost 1 in 5 times I just can't shift to the reverse gear. I have to put the first gear and then try the reverse gear, it works that way but I don't think it's supposed to be that way.
- I'd love to get my hands on the SA rollcage which is been pending since more than a month. The last conversation wiith the Spares team yielded nothing much but assurances that they're still awaiting correct part from the company.
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Old 10th December 2012, 09:15   #58
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I was able to procure the Innova last row jump seats from Shivajinagar yesterday in pretty decent condition. Will now have to find a decent installer who can fix them for me. Suggestions?

The headlights are not calibrated and need focusing adjustments badly. The tyres touching on a full U-turn, need to understand what can be done. I'd love to get my hands on the SA rollcage which is been pending since more than a month. The last conversation wiith the Spares team yielded nothing much but assurances that they're still awaiting correct part from the company.
Dear Amolpol - I have mentioned umpteen number of times that front seats as supplied are of Bolero, fitted in the same location as Bolero with steering wheel also in the same location as Bolero but still you people are hell bent on changing front seats so please go ahead and do so, I won't come in your way. But please do me a favor. Please use the production seats for some serious distance, then change the seats, then use "your" seats and then let me know your honest to goodness comments from lumbar support, thigh support, hands on steering wheel position and appearance / rattling point of view. I will want to see your real comments.

As I have mentioned before, headlights are CMVR compliant items and nothing else, best consigned to the dustbin! Please refer my comments on page number 60 of the "Automobile Lighting" thread in this forum. I have given everything there. You need an electrician with good mental attitude to do it. If done properly, you will get daylight in front of your vehicle. It takes me 5 full days to do it. I have done it myself on my cars.

There is nothing great in procuring the SA rollover bar. I guess it has fallen prey to the **** **** / murphy's law, which happens! You know what I mean. There is business waiting at somebody's doorstep and somebody does not want to take it! Sad! .

Dear Varun - sorry for delayed reply, I just now saw your post. Fitting the sub-1.5 is a logical progression. Saving of excise will overrule everything else, + what better golden chance to fill in goal sheets for the next three years! By the way - "Customer's Latent Desires", what's that? .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 11th December 2012, 12:02   #59
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Dear Amolpol - I have mentioned umpteen number of times that front seats as supplied are of Bolero, fitted in the same location as Bolero with steering wheel also in the same location as Bolero but still you people are hell bent on changing front seats so please go ahead and do so, I won't come in your way.
DB Sir, I guess you got me wrong, I was referring to the rear seats that are up for a change. No plans to change the front seats as of now. The jump seats are the third row seats in the Innova which can be double folded sideways to make the boot space usable.

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As I have mentioned before, headlights are CMVR compliant items and nothing else, best consigned to the dustbin! Please refer my comments on page number 60 of the "Automobile Lighting" thread in this forum. I have given everything there. You need an electrician with good mental attitude to do it. If done properly, you will get daylight in front of your vehicle. It takes me 5 full days to do it. I have done it myself on my cars.
I did look through your notes on the headlights, my issue isn't really on the power output of the bulbs since the 100/80 seem pretty good for my needs. Moreover, I don't need the lights to be blinding to the oncoming traffic who would yell abuses at me for that daylight as I'd see it. The issue is with the alignment of the stock headlamps which is just a reflection of the poor QC at Mahindra. Also, 5 days is just way too much for me to work on a headlight (I have a day job to do too!) so taking it to the ASC and getting the alignment fixed is going to be enough in my case.

Quote:
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There is nothing great in procuring the SA rollover bar. I guess it has fallen prey to the **** **** / murphy's law, which happens! You know what I mean. There is business waiting at somebody's doorstep and somebody does not want to take it! Sad! .
Well, I know it's nothing great but it sure is seemingly difficult the way I see it. Call it red tapism, stupidity or whatever, a customer buying a product shouldn't be kept waiting for a month only because Mahindra employs monkeys in their spares dept who can't read the specs and part no.s correctly even after being in the business for donkeys years.
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Old 11th December 2012, 16:09   #60
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...

I did look through your notes on the headlights, my issue isn't really on the power output of the bulbs since the 100/80 seem pretty good for my needs. Moreover, I don't need the lights to be blinding to the oncoming traffic who would yell abuses at me for that daylight as I'd see it. The issue is with the alignment of the stock headlamps which is just a reflection of the poor QC at Mahindra. Also, 5 days is just way too much for me to work on a headlight (I have a day job to do too!) so taking it to the ASC and getting the alignment fixed is going to be enough in my case.
Hi Amolpol,

I had the same issue with my headlights. Even after a visit to the ASC, its still there. So, am done trying to follow up with them to get it fixed.

Am looking at doing it myself now. Found this white colored knob somewhere on top of the headlight assembly, which I hope will do the trick.
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