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Old 18th December 2012, 12:22   #1
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Default Mahindra Classic won't start when HOT

Dear Jeep enthusiasts,

As I am new to this forum, let me first introduce me and my Jeep. In 2008 I was lucky to be able to buy a Mahindra Classic, 1999 model, first sold in the year 2000. At that time I was living and working in Bangalore as an expat. The Jeep had undergone some modifications and I brought it back as much as possible to the original state, which is easily done in Bangalore as there is ample Classic support and spares available. As the Jeep is in a good condition I did not need to do much.

Not so long ago I left India for a new challenge oversees and of course one never parts of such valuable asset and therefore I shipped the Jeep to my new home here in Malaysia.
One of these days I will share the story of how I got the Classic and the import saga into my new country, both quite interesting experiences.
First however, I want to get my Classic going as it should be going. The issue is that it has a persistent starting problem. It is very annoying actually. Let me explain in a little more detail.

Once the diesel engine is running, all is well. It never fails while running, the sound is magnificent and the engine gives all its strength to the Jeep. “Getting it running” that is where the current problem lies. When it’s cold, the engine starts up without any issues during 80% of the starting attempts. 10% of the time it starts with a little difficulty (and there it comes) during the remaining 10% it does not start at all. I leave it until the next day and then most of the time it starts without an issue.
Surprisingly, starting the engine when it is hot proves to be even more difficult. So I have been driving the Jeep for say half an hour, park it somewhere and switch off the engine. After a few minutes I want to continue my journey and guess what, 8 out of 10 cases it just won’t start anymore. I need to leave it for an hour or so and then I am back into the starting gamble of a cold engine as described earlier.
I would wholeheartedly agree that a pristine Jeep like a Mahindra Classic is allowed to have a little mind of her own, but this situation is just over the top and it needs a solution. You can imagine that, as a result of this problem, I am reluctant to take out the Jeep and sometimes I go shopping for a little while and leave the engine running idle at the parking lot to prevent getting stuck there with a non-willing Jeep.

Since I am probably the only Mahindra Classic owner in Malaysia (please correct me if I am wrong) it is not easy to get the appropriate support here. I do not have a User’s Manual, no electrical drawings and there is limited skilled knowledge of Classic Jeeps with the mechanics that I have met here. The good news is that there is a small Mahindra dealer/workshop in Kuala Lumpur where I have access to spare parts. (Recently the water pump broke down and I could source a new pump through that contact, though it took two Months to get this particular part imported into Malaysia).
Is there anybody on this forum who recognises my problems and can advise?
What I have done in the mean time (when it comes to the starting problem):

• got the Jeep fully serviced
• installed a new heavy duty battery
• and a new starter motor which was not so good anymore
• confirmed that electrical current is actually flowing through all four heaters

Now cranking quality is superb, so that can not be the issue. I only use high quality diesel from a well known international brand.
When I turn the ignition key half way a yellow light comes on for about 15 seconds. Then this yellow light goes off and at the same time I hear a clear “click”, presumably as a result of the heaters being switched off automatically. Only then I attempt a start with the results as described above.

Back in Bangalore I had similar starting problems but not half as severe as I experience here in Malaysia. The climate is more humid out here compared to Bangalore, but then again it is a diesel engine and humidity should not affect starting quality, should it?

The only other problem that I can think of is that the spray nozzles could be fouled and as a result the diesel spray quality is less than optimal. I am a bit reluctant to open the engine to investigate as it runs so well, once running.
I’d really appreciate your expert advice.

Thanks you!
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Old 18th December 2012, 12:42   #2
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Default re: Mahindra Classic won't start when HOT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrianus View Post
What I have done in the mean time (when it comes to the starting problem):

• got the Jeep fully serviced
• installed a new heavy duty battery
• and a new starter motor which was not so good anymore
• confirmed that electrical current is actually flowing through all four heaters

Now cranking quality is superb, so that can not be the issue. I only use high quality diesel from a well known international brand.
When I turn the ignition key half way a yellow light comes on for about 15 seconds. Then this yellow light goes off and at the same time I hear a clear “click”, presumably as a result of the heaters being switched off automatically. Only then I attempt a start with the results as described above.

Back in Bangalore I had similar starting problems but not half as severe as I experience here in Malaysia. The climate is more humid out here compared to Bangalore, but then again it is a diesel engine and humidity should not affect starting quality, should it?

The only other problem that I can think of is that the spray nozzles could be fouled and as a result the diesel spray quality is less than optimal. I am a bit reluctant to open the engine to investigate as it runs so well, once running.
I’d really appreciate your expert advice.

Thanks you!
Hi Adrianus,

Have you check the engine compression and the Glow Plugs/Heater Plugs.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 18th December 2012, 16:35   #3
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Default re: Mahindra Classic won't start when HOT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrianus View Post
Dear Jeep enthusiasts,



Once the diesel engine is running, all is well. It never fails while running, the sound is magnificent and the engine gives all its strength to the Jeep. “Getting it running” that is where the current problem lies. When it’s cold, the engine starts up without any issues during 80% of the starting attempts. 10% of the time it starts with a little difficulty (and there it comes) during the remaining 10% it does not start at all. I leave it until the next day and then most of the time it starts without an issue.
Surprisingly, starting the engine when it is hot proves to be even more difficult. So I have been driving the Jeep for say half an hour, park it somewhere and switch off the engine. After a few minutes I want to continue my journey and guess what, 8 out of 10 cases it just won’t start anymore.

The only other problem that I can think of is that the spray nozzles could be fouled and as a result the diesel spray quality is less than optimal. I am a bit reluctant to open the engine to investigate as it runs so well, once running.
I’d really appreciate your expert advice.

Thanks you!
You can extract the injectors (spray nozzles) and test them at a shop. Should not have to get deep into the engine to do this but first try the cheap stuff such as......

Check the air filter and the air intake.
Check the fuel filters.
Take a look around the fuel pump for leaks. Check all the fuel lines. A fuel leak not only lets fuel out, it lets air in and that's a no-no.

If all that does not work, have them take a look at your wires particularly around your glow plugs. Sometimes a wire will short out because vibration wears away insulation. This is called chafing. This will cause periodic short circuiting....because, since you mentioned it, it is worse when hot and metals expand when hot and can make contact with something and short out.

There is my 2 rupees worth. Let us know what it is when you find the problem, 'ay? It makes me feel great when I solve the problem and Arka doesn't.

Last edited by DirtyDan : 18th December 2012 at 16:38.
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Old 18th December 2012, 18:00   #4
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Default Re: Mahindra Classic won't start when HOT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrianus View Post
Now cranking quality is superb, so that can not be the issue. I only use high quality diesel from a well known international brand.
When I turn the ignition key half way a yellow light comes on for about 15 seconds. Then this yellow light goes off and at the same time I hear a clear “click”, presumably as a result of the heaters being switched off automatically. Only then I attempt a start with the results as described above.

Back in Bangalore I had similar starting problems but not half as severe as I experience here in Malaysia. The climate is more humid out here compared to Bangalore, but then again it is a diesel engine and humidity should not affect starting quality, should it?

The only other problem that I can think of is that the spray nozzles could be fouled and as a result the diesel spray quality is less than optimal. I am a bit reluctant to open the engine to investigate as it runs so well, once running.
I’d really appreciate your expert advice.

Thanks you!
Hi Adrianus,

Please check the starter motor. If the engine refuses to start when hot, it could be because the Benedix is warped.

While you are at it check the fuel filter and fuel lines, and the FIP Solenoid switch.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 19th December 2012, 14:30   #5
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Default Re: Mahindra Classic won't start when HOT

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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
While you are at it check the fuel filter and fuel lines, and the FIP Solenoid switch.

Regards,

Arka
Hi Adrianus,
check FIP solenoid switch and wiring if this switch thoroughly, wire may be short circuiting.

Shubhendra
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Old 19th December 2012, 14:44   #6
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Default Re: Mahindra Classic won't start when HOT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrianus View Post
When it’s cold, the engine starts up without any issues during 80% of the starting attempts. 10% of the time it starts with a little difficulty (and there it comes) during the remaining 10% it does not start at all. I leave it until the next day and then most of the time it starts without an issue.
Surprisingly, starting the engine when it is hot proves to be even more difficult. So I have been driving the Jeep for say half an hour, park it somewhere and switch off the engine. After a few minutes I want to continue my journey and guess what, 8 out of 10 cases it just won’t start anymore. I need to leave it for an hour or so and then I am back into the starting gamble of a cold engine as described earlier.
Hi Adrianus, congratulations on being able to take the Classic with you to Malaysia, speaks volumes about how much you love it .

I dont have a Classic or a diesel vehicle but have been facing exactly the same problem with my 2005 Ford Ikon. For me, it starts at the first crank when the engine is cold, or after a short drive. But after being on for 30 mins or over, i can never say if it will start or not. I have been stranded a couple of times at traffic signals as well, thankfully a short push start bailed me out both times. Never turn it off now at traffic lights, dont want to take a risk. I have been meaning to take the car to the service station but crazy work hours over the last few months havent given me a chance to.

Thanks for starting this thread, was planning to do the same but thankfully came across yours. Am keeping a close eye on this one, will also try to get the car to the service station one of these days so if i get to know what the problem is, will share it with you.

Last edited by sammyboy : 19th December 2012 at 14:49.
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Old 19th December 2012, 15:16   #7
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Default Re: Mahindra Classic won't start when HOT

This is just an unconventional answer and 99% a leaky head might not be the problem, but when was the last time you flushed and changed the coolant? If done recently, did you see traces of oil in it?
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Old 19th December 2012, 21:58   #8
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Default Re: Mahindra Classic won't start when HOT

I have faced similar problem with my Indigo. Cold start was easy, while I struggled to start the engine when it was warm. It turned out to be the starter motor issue, motor bearings were replaced and no starting problem after wards. Carbon brushes were also replaced.

Your post mentions about replacing the starter motor, if you have any doubt about the capability of the new starter motor, it might be worth checking it.
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Old 20th December 2012, 17:47   #9
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Mod team note: Back to back posts, please wait for mod approval and then EDIT the original post. Thanks

Dear ANUJ GEORGE, vivekjayasheel, sammyboy, ex670c and DirtyDan,

Thank you so much for thinking with me trying to solve my Mahindra Classic starting problem.
Just now I studied all your responses and this what I intend to do:

- check compression
- check heater plugs and wiring (short circuit?)
- extract injectors and inspect/test them
- check air intake
- check fuel pump and fuel lines (air ingress?)
- check FIP solenoid switch (short circuit?)
- check oil in coolant (leaking head?)

Suggestions that you made that I have already checked (before initiating this thread):

- Air filter has been changed recently
- Fuel filter has been changed recently
- Starter motor has been replaced by a new one recently. Now cranking quality is very good. So the starter motor cannot be the issue, correct? Or has the starter motor an additional function, besides cranking the engine, which I am not aware of?

My knowledge of diesel engines is limited (I needed Google to learn that “FIP Solenoid valve” Means “Fuel Injection Pump Solenoid valve”). I do know that a diesel engine burns its fuel by compression heat and that it therefore needs high pressure fuel injection through injector spray nozzles. To start the diesel process it needs a little initial heat through the heater plugs. This is about where my diesel engine knowledge ends (Wouldn’t even know where to find the “FIP Solenoid Switch”). But not to worry, with all your good advice I can talk to my friendly mechanic and sure one day we will find the root cause of this starting problem.
For my benefit though, it would help if someone could share the Mahindra Classic fuel and electrical diagrams. I have no Mahindra Classic documentation whatsoever.
Soon I will start my Xmas and New Year break. Early January 2013 I will take the Jeep to the garage and check all that you suggested.
In the mean time, in case anybody has any additional suggestions, please let me know.
Thanks and Regards, Adrianus

Over the last few weeks I have read everything there is to read on the subject "Mahindra Classic" on Team-BHP.

Obvious, recurring, Mahindra Classic authorities are:

Mr. Behram Dhabhar
GTO
trammway

I'd really appreciate your views on my Mahindra Classic Jeep starting problems as well.

Thank you.

Regards, Adrianus

Last edited by Jaggu : 20th December 2012 at 18:05.
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Old 20th December 2012, 18:09   #10
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Default Re: Mahindra Classic won't start when HOT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrianus View Post

- check compression
- check heater plugs and wiring (short circuit?)
- extract injectors and inspect/test them
- check air intake
- check fuel pump and fuel lines (air ingress?)
- check FIP solenoid switch (short circuit?)
- check oil in coolant (leaking head?)

Suggestions that you made that I have already checked (before initiating this thread):

- Air filter has been changed recently
- Fuel filter has been changed recently
- Starter motor has been replaced by a new one recently. Now cranking quality is very good. So the starter motor cannot be the issue, correct? Or has the starter motor an add

Try following this order:

- check air intake (Air filter ruled out, so check for any leaks to be sure)
- check heater plugs and wiring (short circuit?)
- check fuel pump and fuel lines (air ingress?)
- check FIP solenoid switch (short circuit?)
- check oil in coolant (leaking head?)
- extract injectors and inspect/test them
- check compression
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Old 20th December 2012, 18:19   #11
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Default Re: Mahindra Classic won't start when HOT

When it is not starting, what happens when you crank. Does the engine turn, or you just hear clicking noises.
If engine turns what kind of thing you see coming out of exhaust?

Next time your vehicle does not start, get out and prime the diesel pump by hand. And then try again. Try this thing if your engine is rotating with starter motor, but engine is not starting
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Old 21st December 2012, 13:42   #12
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Default Re: Mahindra Classic won't start when HOT

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[b]
For my benefit though, it would help if someone could share the Mahindra Classic fuel and electrical diagrams. I have no Mahindra Classic documentation whatsoever.

Regards, Adrianus
Dear Adrianus,
I might get hold of classic documentation soon ( i do own 97 model Classic), you might get the same when you come back from vacation.

Shubhendra
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Old 21st December 2012, 14:22   #13
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Default Re: Mahindra Classic won't start when HOT

Engine wont start when hot .
please check the following

1) Valve clearance / tappet settings

2) Any fuel line not touching hot exhaust pipe or too near to it .( expert comment needed here -- vaporization of fuel in HP lines when excessively hot ,possible ? )

3) faulty head gasket

4) loose valve seats

Sudarshan

Last edited by Sudarshan : 21st December 2012 at 14:39.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 13:37   #14
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Default Re: Mahindra Classic won't start when HOT

Today I did an experiment. Drove the Jeep for 15 minutes, stopped and switched off the engine. Then I tied a clean white cloth around the exhaust and attempted to start the engine. It cranked and the engine was turning vigorously but it did not start. Then I inspected the cloth and it was as clean as it was before and there was no sign nor smell of diesel fuel.

That was a real good steer tsk1979. I have learned something: "When the engine is hot and I try to start, the cranking quality is good but there is no fuel delivery to the engine."

How do I "prime the diesel pump by hand"? (Remember I am not a diesel engine savvy and I do not have any Mahindra Classic user's guides nor fuel- and electrical diagrams.

After waiting for half an hour the engine started without any problem.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 16:24   #15
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Default Re: Mahindra Classic won't start when HOT

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How do I "prime the diesel pump by hand"? (Remember I am not a diesel engine savvy and I do not have any Mahindra Classic user's guides nor fuel- and electrical diagrams.

After waiting for half an hour the engine started without any problem.
In the engine bay, somewhere along the fuel line, there will be a device with a manual pump handle, or a rubber bulb thingy.
When you operate this it will send fuel to engine.
I do not own a classic, so you can ask other jeepers for advice about how to locate it in the engine bay
I suggest you click 3-4 pics of your engine bay, post them where, and then somebody can guide you where is the hand prime pump
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