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Old 16th May 2013, 23:20   #151
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I will disagree to your comment on quality for the following reason: There are very good quality systems and processes in place within the organization. They are used properly also. Regular reviews are held where the data is shared and the indices showing the results are highlighted. People's MOP (Measure of Performance) is based on compliance with these processes. Obviously I cannot share details.
Dear BD,

You can disagree to any extent. But the fact remains otherwise, on M&M Quality capability. Slightly off topic, the below list is what has been changed on two 'top end' versions of my Scorpio ownership.

SCORPIO Crde SLX(2005-2008)

1. Power steering belt noise, replaced under warranty at 3500 km
2. Rear leaf spring suspensions recambering done for noise at 5000 km
3. Power steering Belt noise-belt tightened, leaf springs recambering done, Black smoke from exhaust checked at 10000 km
4. Fan blower replaced due to fin noise defect at 11000 km
5. Leaf springs replaced under warranty due to defect at 12000 km
6. Front right disc replaced due to over heating issue. Replacement of master brake distributor at 14000 km
7. Fan belt replaced under warranty for noise at 17000 km
8. Leaf Springs re-cambering done due to noise at 38000 km

Sold the car at 50000 km!

I purchased another Scorpio(the mHawk version) because of my childhood lineage with M&M(Willys 4X4 and Tractors from my village). The major reason was also the service support I got from the dealer in Hyderabad which swung me to own my second Scorpio

Now the facts of maintenance as below,

SCORPIO mHawk VLX(2008-2011)

1. Vehicle pulling to left at slow speeds. Brake bleeding done at 183 km!!!!
2. AC expansion valve replaced under warranty due to 'whoa' noise at 900 km
3. Replaced rear view mirror due to buzzer defect at 4500 km
4. Replaced the a.c expansion valve due to a new model due to the problem of ‘whoa’ noise at 7500 km
5. Spare tyre wheel TPMS sensor replaced at 12000 km
6. Clutch Master cylinder (clutch became very hard) & power windows remote switch console(one of the window switch failed) at 12800 km
7. Head Lamps & Tail lamps changed due to water seepage at 25290 km
8. Brake Master Cylinder unit replaced due to issues with braking above 60kmph speeds, at 27000 km
9. Changed Brake booster unit as brakes lost their bite(resulting in me rear ending an Indica at 35 kmph speed!!!)at 33000 km
10.Replaced reverse gear switch near gear box due to faulty switch keeping the rear sensors continuously on at 37000 km
11. Water condensation below steering with carpet becoming wet, ASC did some insulation to AC pipes at 37000 km
12. Steering column replaced due to noise and steering alignment issue at 39000 km
13. Star bearing, propeller shaft replaced due to manufacturing defect(khat khat noise from the rear)at India garage, BLR at 43000 km
14. Clutch release bearing, pressure plates, assembly replaced for juddering at 44000 km
15. Evaporator coil replaced due to defect at 51000 km
16.Spare tyre TPMS sensor replaced at 52000 km
17. Rear left tyre TPMS sensor replaced at 53000 km

Car sold at 56000 km.
Some of the above mentioned items might be minor in nature for qualified defects definition. Some are not captured in my log which I do not recall now. However, I request you to look at this from an 'end Customer' point of view and you will realize that I have to spend so much 'effort', 'money' & my 'time' at the A.S.C. to resolve them.

I have maintained all my rides very well and TBHPians who have seen my cars can vouch for that. My driver never drove my cars apart from cleaning them everyday and standing outside in parking spaces not to let anybody touch the cars.

So, the fact remains that M&M QC is defined per its own comfort and convenience. The end customer cannot be forced to accept a substandard product clearing your ‘QC’ definitions.

I was eagerly looking forward to buy two M&M products- XUV & Thar upon my return to India this december. Having gone through so many issues on both the ‘fast selling’ products, I have weaned away from both of them.
M&M- You can ignore the Customer’s voice and bask in the current sales numbers, however history has taught us that ‘Customer is the King’.
Mods, Apologies in advance for a long post!

Last edited by getsurya : 16th May 2013 at 23:33.
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Old 16th May 2013, 23:56   #152
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Originally Posted by getsurya View Post
Sold the car at 50000 km!

I purchased another Scorpio(the mHawk version) because of my childhood lineage with M&M(Willys 4X4 and Tractors from my village).

Car sold at 56000 km.

I was eagerly looking forward to buy two M&M products- XUV & Thar upon my return to India this december.
Dear getsurya,

Firstly, I dont know if you have met BD personally. I had the honor to do so. I must say that a finer gentleman I have not come across in this word ever. He did not know me nor had heard about me. Yet, he met me, spent time with me explaining stuff, explaining the kind of issues that people face, the rationale behind why the Thar was engineered the way it was.

At a time when all the "experienced jeepers and off roaders" tried every trick in the book to make money from my questions (and they talk of building a community based on common interest when all it is a community for selfish interest), BD was the most distinguished professional giving me sound technical advise and did not charge me any consulting fees.

One has to meet him personally to know the person he truly is.

Having said that, If I had a bad experience with a vehicle once - I would not buy that vehicle a second time. And most definitely I would not think of buying any product from that manufacturer if I have had the same bad experience twice.

First decision can be a bad decision. Second and third time is not a bad decision, it is a death wish chosen consciously and knowingly.

There is no doubt that as a company Mahindra is at the forefront of automotive design in India. The design capabilities of Mahindra is not the major issue with the Thar. It is the manufacturing execution which falls way below desirable churning out poor quality products from the plant expecting customers to accept such poor quality.

And you know what - their expectation is placed in reality. What with customer continuing to buy bad products even after having a history of quality issues. This is best summarised by what Parm stated:

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Originally Posted by Parm View Post
some people buy a Thar just because it turns heads while parked by the road side (or in a break down state)!!

So MM dont need to worry about it's QC and we should not be debating here!
If customers continue to buy and rebuy bad quality products, then there is no reason to debate.
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Old 17th May 2013, 01:27   #153
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If I had a bad experience with a vehicle once - I would not buy that vehicle a second time
Hi Anda,

I did that, because of my earlier affliation to M&M(as explained) and also the great service I got from the A.S.C. There is nothing wrong in giving a second chance to somebody....my 2 cents!

I do not know why you brought BD into your post, as I have nothing against anybody. My concern is one cannot be defensive about a self proclaimed practice that does not satisfy the end customer. It does not interest me who designed the car or engineered it or bolted it on in the factory, that information is good to know and not must to know. What is must is the quality promise of the overall manufacturer has to be delivered. Period!

I know about M&M from my childhood and have good friends working for them. The reason why we are discussing this is that one's experience should be other's learning.

Happy Learning!

Last edited by getsurya : 17th May 2013 at 01:31.
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Old 17th May 2013, 09:43   #154
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Hi All,

I am a satisfied customer of M&M products and owned more than 7 vehicles in last 10years.Uses a Scorpio VLX 2011 and THAR Crde 2011 now.

Faced normal service issues as usual and got sorted out well in time.

I dont have any regrets and will buy more products if need comes.

Rajith

Last edited by Rajith : 17th May 2013 at 09:52.
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Old 17th May 2013, 10:29   #155
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Dear getsurya,

Firstly, I dont know if you have met BD personally. I had the honor to do so. I must say that a finer gentleman I have not come across in this word ever. He did not know me nor had heard about me. Yet, he met me, spent time with me explaining stuff, explaining the kind of issues that people face, the rationale behind why the Thar was engineered the way it was.

At a time when all the "experienced jeepers and off roaders" tried every trick in the book to make money from my questions (and they talk of building a community based on common interest when all it is a community for selfish interest), BD was the most distinguished professional giving me sound technical advise and did not charge me any consulting fees.

One has to meet him personally to know the person he truly is.
Dear Anda60213 - Anilji, you know something? I feel so calm, I feel so nice, I feel as light as a feather, as if some giant weight has been lifted off. I feel so simple and humble. I am just a normal guy doing a normal job, but I am extremely passionate about automobiles. Please accept my simple - "thank you".

I lose nothing by helping you, on the contrary, I gain knowledge. I learnt that day from the way your vehicle was behaving. People do not understand this.

I just want to quote three sentences:
1. The "cine-que-non" of leadership is "professional knowledge and professional competence". - Field Marshal Sam Maneckshaw.
2. Do good to people, irrespective of what they do to you, then you will always win!
3. Real leaders do not set up their teams for failure! - Robin Sharma.

Unfortunately, the corporate world insists of filling itself with people who do not have 1 (why? no answer, only fancy presentations). Because they do not have 1, they do not believe in implementing 2 and they ensure that they firmly implement 3. Unfortunate!

With above as reality, can you become a delighted customer? No way! No wonder you sold your vehicle. .

I still hope that good sense prevails and "somebody does something". I know that "somebody" is reading, this is addressed to you Sir, please do something!

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 17th May 2013, 10:57   #156
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There is nothing wrong in giving a second chance to somebody....my 2 cents!
Dear getsurya,

I can understand a second chance especially you have your trustworthy friends working for M&M. But in your own words you considered a third and a fourth chance (XUV and a Thar)? I am not saying that your choice would be wrong. Maybe this time around you might get a better product. It is not impossible.

But you see as someone mentioned earlier - MM is here to make money. And as long as customers keep buying their products, they will continue to do so and as long as they continue to make money - what is the incentive for them to improve the quality of their product? Product is being sold even without quality improvements, so why bother?

But when customers who have faced issues start going away from Mahindra to better reliable products, hopefully they will stat feeling the financial pinch. That is when there will be incentive for them to drastically improve their quality.

Note that when I refer to quality, I am referring to manufacturing quality and not design quality. M&M is truly the leaders in their segment as far as product design is concerned.

I don't mean to dissuade you nor persuade you. I am just presenting the business case for M&M of either of the choices that you make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajith View Post
Faced normal service issues as usual and got sorted out well in time.
Dear Rajith,

Would you like to provide some examples of what you consider as "normal service issues"? I ask because this is a very generic term and can cover anything and everything in its fold. All the problems I faced were termed as normal service issues and yet, to me they are not.

If you would like to clarify, then hopefully it will give better insights for other readers of this post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Unfortunately, the corporate world insists of filling itself with people who do not have 1 (why? no answer, only fancy presentations). Because they do not have 1, they do not believe in implementing 2 and they ensure that they firmly implement 3. Unfortunate!
BD Sir, I've been there, done that, got out, trying to get back in.

What can I say, its the same anywhere and everywhere. Hence I probably can understand your sentiments much better than you might think I could. End of the day, home is where the heart is and one hopes that the home & heart remain healthy.

I still owe you the dinner I promised, so you can hold me to it anytime. It will be my honor.

Last edited by anda60213 : 17th May 2013 at 11:22. Reason: Rule#11
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Old 17th May 2013, 11:38   #157
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

I have had a Thar for a year and some 15000 odd kms now. The thar is my only vehicle and my daily drive. Have faced no issues so far in my ownership experience - except for some bad plastic handles falling off and an issue with the Torsion bar setting with was fixed by ASC.

I've been in love with Jeeps for as long as I can remember, would have loved to own a CJ3B - but have neither the knowledge nor the time to own a project of the sort.

My only bone of contention with Mahindra is wrt the brakes - a widely known issue. Am just hoping that Mahindra recognizes the issue and gets a 'proper' replacement done for the same.

Overall, am pretty happy with what I got - possibly because of all the Thar bashing on TeamBHP, that the expectations were set accordingly.
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Old 17th May 2013, 11:53   #158
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Originally Posted by anda60213 View Post
Dear Rajith,

Would you like to provide some examples of what you consider as "normal service issues"? I ask because this is a very generic term and can cover anything and everything in its fold. All the problems I faced were termed as normal service issues and yet, to me they are not.

If you would like to clarify, then hopefully it will give better insights for other readers of this post.
Dear Anda,

Let me clarfiy the point of normal service issues by rewriting as i never faced any quality problems with any of my M&M vehicles.

All ASC works managers ,CRM and even M&M HO team is easily approachable for any sort of help reqd 24/7 - 365 days, i am not talking about M&M customer care here.

My Thar CRDe has done 20000kms with zero issues. No offroads.(having another beast with lion heart for the same).

THAR CRDe is a Scorpio CRDe 4wd in disguise.

Scorpio VLX - done 37000kms with zero issues.

Will pick up a REXTON soon.

Last edited by Rajith : 17th May 2013 at 12:01.
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Old 17th May 2013, 12:12   #159
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Overall, am pretty happy with what I got - possibly because of all the Thar bashing on TeamBHP, that the expectations were set accordingly.
Dear XD2, Bassed on thie statement that your expectations were set accordingly, I am assuming that you were well prepared in advance to expect issues and knew how to resolve them. Am I correct? Would you care to elaborate what were the issues you faced?

What I have noticed in all these discussions is that there is a class of buyers who are willing to accept issues as part of "jeep experience". I am not saying you are one of those.

Satisfaction level with any product is a subjective experience and is based on many things over and above plain simple facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajith View Post
All ASC works managers ,CRM and even M&M HO team is easily approachable for any sort of help reqd 24/7 - 365 days, i am not talking about M&M customer care here.
Absolutely. I agree. I never faced any issues with dealing with all these people. They were very friendly, approachable and always eager to solve the problem.

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Originally Posted by Rajith View Post
Dear Anda,
Let me clarfiy the point of normal service issues,i never faced any quality problems with any of the my M&M vehicles.

My Thar CRDe till today no issues, done 20000kms. No offroads.(having another beast for the same).
I would say here that you are expressing your satisfaction level with your vehicle and in doing so you may have clubbed several issues as part of the normal service issues.

However, many others (including myself) wll consider issues like the below as "defects". And from another post of yours, I am aware that you have indeed faced these issues within the 1st 5000 kms itself

1)Water seepage from 4wd lever boot and rt hand side mudguard bolts to the cabin
2)Castor & Camber - was out
3)Door & roof noise - Rectified many number of times, keep coming and going.
4)front RHS free wheel hub failed at 350 kms during a long trip
5) Only front 2 doors and soft top keep rattling.
6) 4 crde's in a group all having the same rattling noise for which BD has explained of how it is due to saving of cost at the plant to meet someone's MOP and for which the design at M&M had perfect provisions to prevent these issues but were sacrificed by M&M to save their own cost.

I appreciate that You are very satisfied with your vehicle and that is absolutely true for you.

But when I look at all these issues even before the 1st service, I can never prepare myself for what others call "jeep experience".

To me, this is the kind of problems I expect from old, used, second hand vehicles or vehicles, built, handled/repaired by unauthorized and unscrupulous people. If the customer starts accepting these issues as "features" and pay 8 lacs for these, then no wonder companies like M&M and Tata's continue to make money.

To me, this is not about Thar bashing. Bashing is when someone uses excessive force against someone who is incapable of defending themselves. M&M is hardly incapable of defending themselves and I am no where so mighty that I could use excessive force.

It is true that many people would like to have this "jeep experience".

It is also true that there are plenty of customers who expect quality, reliability and a basically functioning vehicle which will have issues related to wear & tear but not due to factory defects and many of these issues being discussed are not wear & tear (what wear & tear under 5000 kms?).

One makes a choices and decides which group of customers they are in. Those who prefer the jeep experience, will buy the Thar. Those who expect reliability - won't.

As someone aptly titled this thread - "Why I won't buy a Thar".
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Old 17th May 2013, 13:00   #160
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

This might be off topic but staging an act like this in India MIGHT get them to fix their shoddy product and after sales service.

All the haters COULD pool in and buy a brand new Thar and vent out their frustration. Rambling along on an automotive forum such as this is just isn't enough these days... The Chinese are making it quite a habit but they seem to be getting their point across. The Indian media is always looking for "FRESH" news/entertainment stories and would happily oblige.





http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/intern...ml#post3124529 ($423,000 Maserati Quattroporte smashed by Owner in China)



P.S - Is the Thar exported to China??
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Old 17th May 2013, 13:29   #161
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All the haters COULD pool in and buy a brand new Thar and vent out their frustration.
The consequences however of this would be that it will increase sales for M&M and then after you damage your vehicle, they will come up with a compensation package which you can claim if you again buy an M&M vehicle which means even more sales.

The way to get back to them is to hit them financially by refusing to buy their products - Boycott M&M the way Gandhi did to the British. Hurt the British so much that they had no choice but to leave the country.

But this requires a huge resolve to be willing to pay a higher price for better quality or sacrifice the desire for the "lifestyle".

You are anyways paying a higher price in terms of wasted time, energy and even money.

When summed up for a Total Cost of Ownership - Its worth it to buy a higher priced reliable product. Thankfully options are available in India.

M&M, hope you are listening to this discussion.
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Old 17th May 2013, 13:44   #162
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Originally Posted by anda60213 View Post
1)Water seepage from 4wd lever boot and rt hand side mudguard bolts to the cabin
2)Castor & Camber - was out
3)Door & roof noise - Rectified many number of times, keep coming and going.
4)front RHS free wheel hub failed at 350 kms during a long trip
5) Only front 2 doors and soft top keep rattling.
6) 4 crde's in a group all having the same rattling noise
Dear anda,

All above 6 issues i have faced and the same was settled with in same day for ever, may a be for a normal customer this will feel pain.

1)Water seepage from 4wd lever boot - Added a wiretag in lower bottom step of the rubber boot , sorted for ever .

Rt hand side mudguard bolts to the cabin - Removed 2 -10size bolt, refitted with sealant.

2)Castor & Camber - was out - Redone at ASC.

3)Door & roof noise - Rectified many number of
times, keep coming and going. - Installed a rollcage and secured the bill pillar to middle of the rollcage.

4)front RHS free wheel hub failed at 350 kms during a long trip - Replaced imm in the near by ASC.

5) Only front 2 doors and soft top keep rattling.

Door rattling stopped with help of rollcage and soft top was fully insulated in kerala. No more rattling.

6) 4 crde's in a group all having the same rattling noise [/quote]
All sorted.

I didnt feel above as a big issue and took as a part of the game .

Last edited by Rajith : 17th May 2013 at 13:46.
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Old 17th May 2013, 14:25   #163
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Regular reviews are held where the data is shared and the indices showing the results are highlighted. People's MOP (Measure of Performance) is based on compliance with these processes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post
Having said that THAR CRDe is not perfect and I know it. But I firmly believe that it delivers it core promise- 'ability to take people anywhere!'
BD & Vinod,

On a related note I have some questions and I'll understand if BD chooses to not answer since he can no longer officially represent MM.

With all these reviews, SOPs and MOPs including MOPs for cost reduction that the company has in place -
a) Is there any review of the total cost of spares replaced in warranty for which the customer does not bear any charges but either M&M bears it or the dealer.
b) Who bears this cost, M&M or dealer?
c) Is there any MOP on reducing this cost?
d) Is there any root cause analysis of why so many failures are being treated in warranty and if so, why is the action of that not visible to the customer buying the product now.

The Thar has been in the market close to 3 years and despite that most of the defects from first year still continues to persist in the products being sold even now (one of them being coolant leakage).

I think if M&M took into consideration the amount of cost incurred on replacing faulty parts in warranty, then the cost saved at time of manufacturing will easily be offset by the warranty costs incurred. Sadly however we may never get a full picture of how many customers are turned away by ASC's from claiming warranty.
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Old 17th May 2013, 14:35   #164
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Dear XD2, Bassed on thie statement that your expectations were set accordingly, I am assuming that you were well prepared in advance to expect issues and knew how to resolve them. Am I correct? Would you care to elaborate what were the issues you faced?

What I have noticed in all these discussions is that there is a class of buyers who are willing to accept issues as part of "jeep experience". I am not saying you are one of those.

...
I tend to disagree with the general idea that the 'Jeep Experience' needs to include living with niggling issues - that would have been true for a jeep you build, but should not apply to one you buy. IMO, the jeep experience to me relates more the 'go anywhere' ability/attitude that the vehicle tends to inspire, which similarly capable vehicles often do not. I too would be unwilling to live with issues as part of the 'Jeep experience'. I pretty much treat the Thar as any other vehicle I own when it is out of the showroom.

Well, I made the switch from a Fiat Punto, and the kinds of things that I was expecting and ready for are things like :

- The door handles giving up
- The steering feels nervous at triple digit speeds
- The off center steering wheel, which, at least for me, seemed like a non issue
- The gears take a little getting used too
- The AC ducts don't direct air to the driver as you would expect
- Some rattles, few of which were fixed, few which I guess I don't notice anymore.

As you all mention above, the ASC was prompt and addressed these issues without much hassles.

To note, I've faced worse on my initial one year ownership with my Fiat Punto, with some clamps giving up, ridding me of the comfort of the A/C 200km from base and, at one point, leaving me stranded in the middle of the highway. At that point, I too had felt I made a bad decision buying the car. But things settled down, and it was a nice experience thereafter.

But, with what you went through with your Thar, I can well relate to what you felt. Had I had some bolts falling off my Punto, I might have parted ways as well.
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Old 17th May 2013, 15:40   #165
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

At the risk of going OT, we as Indians as a whole are partly to blame for accepting poor quality with the "chalta hai" attitude.

http://www.firstpost.com/living/the-...ai-174966.html

http://agrawalsanjeev.blogspot.in/20...-attitude.html
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