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Old 19th May 2013, 11:54   #181
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl View Post


What is the capacity of that winch? Is it mounted on the plastic plate?
Sorry. did not check out the winch in detail. But it is mounted on OE metal plate which is present in all Thar's.

I guess that the main objective of placing the plate there is to reduce the water gushing into IC during wading. Only BD sir can tell.
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Old 20th May 2013, 08:32   #182
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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
This is the most important aspect, more than any MOPs and SOPs one can quote.

Back in the 90s, I was sent to do a security audit of the electronic fund transfer facility introduced by an Indian bank. The location was the main data center at the HQ of the Bank. On the second day of the audit, I just walked in purposefully into the lobby in the full view of 3-4 security guards, got into the lift with many others, then walked into the data center whose access controlled door was left fully open. Then in full view of the data center staff, I settled in front of a EFT terminal whose screen was left unlocked. I had no ID tag, still I was not stopped or questioned anywhere.

When I wanted to log this as a major security lapse, the data center manager was quite upset. He said it will make their life miserable, to keep the door locked, entering pin every time, locking/unlocking the computer screen, stringent checks by the security, etc., etc. He then consulted with my manager, who instructed me to let it slide. The only reason why the bank was getting the audit done was because of RBI directive, they didn't want any real problems found. And my manager was happy to oblige them.

Moral: If QC report says it is fine, it might not be.

The story didn't end there. The data center manager wanted the report in a week. But, my company by then had become ISO9000 certified. Which means I had run through a set of reviews and sign offs and what not. I took 2 days for the actual audit, and 2 days to write the report. However, the ISO9000 process of this tiny project stretched the process to 1 month, to get all the sign offs. By the end of it, the report got edited, censored and watered down and had become completely benign.

Meanwhile, I had to endure nearly 3 weeks of hollering from data center manager for the audit report. I told him about our ISO 9000 process as the reason for delay. He told me he doesn't care what process we follow if it takes more than a week. Then my boss told me to explain to him why ISO 9000 will greatly improve the quality of the report. Don't think the data center manager bought that story.

Moral: Customer doesn't really give a damn about your internal processes. Throwing your internal procedural buzzwords at them doesn't impress them at all, especially when the end result is not satisfying.

Even though I was quite young when this fiasco happened, I learned a great deal in just one month on how well-intentioned processes can deliver sub-par performance. It was a real crash-course in the reality of QC in India.

Sammy, I could tell you some horror stories, including one involving a large project where one of the prime stated goals was to be compliant with all that Carnegie-Mellon project management stuff. It was followed to a "T". and was Certified as such. They had really great metrics. Their metrics said so! But the code just didn't work. It was a total colossal bust thanks in part to an outside contractor who knew Cargegie Mellon inside and out, and not much else, and whose motto should have been "High Performance not Delivered" or maybe" High Perfomance, wasdat?" You know the ones. There's no substitute for clear headed analysts writing great specs and talented programmers slinging great egoless code. You can't "process" your way to success. "Process" may be necessary but it is never sufficient. Thus Spake DirtyDan.

Last edited by DirtyDan : 20th May 2013 at 08:35.
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Old 20th May 2013, 11:48   #183
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

I have built a Jeep for myself. A Superb off-roader absolutely unstoppable and not only off roading I even wade shallow rivers in it.

Go to section 4x4 vehicles and see Allahabad Jeep restoration project.

I completely rebuilt the engine to the highest precision standards, got the fuel injector serviced and recaliberated at Bosch, fitted new batteries and tyres, rebuilt complete suspension and electricals ( full overhaul ) made a new canopy, and people say it is one of the best MM550 engine and gearbox they have ever seen.

This was purchased directly from an Army auction in Allahabad from a lot of 24 vehicles. The purchase price itself was Rs. 165,000.

Spent another 180,000 is building it, the final price with registration came to around Rs. 360,000.

But is is some offroader. It has the XDP 3 engine.

Only problem is it lacks AC and Power steering but thats is fine, it is not really required off road, and if going far where highway travel is extensive say over 150 to 200 km then I have a Bolero or Scorpio to travel the highway section and take over from the drivers off road.

As for the winch installed on that Thar in the picture, it must be a Taiwani derivative or Chinese winch, which can pull out a kids tricycle if it gets bogged down in some soft sand / mud right outside the house. Not good enough even to retrieve a Polaris ATV I promise you. But a winch on the bumper makes a Macho man offroader even more Macho perhaps and attracts more girls! than a Thar with no winch.
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Old 20th May 2013, 12:11   #184
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Originally Posted by anda60213 View Post
1)Water seepage from 4wd lever boot and rt hand side mudguard bolts to the cabin
2)Castor & Camber - was out
3)Door & roof noise - Rectified many number of times, keep coming and going.
4)front RHS free wheel hub failed at 350 kms during a long trip
5) Only front 2 doors and soft top keep rattling.
Total mileage of vehicle at time this was reported = 5,000 kms
Total defects that have been listed = 5
Mean mileage between failures = 1000 kms

Quote:
Originally Posted by getsurya View Post
SCORPIO Crde SLX(2005-2008)

1. Power steering belt noise, replaced under warranty at 3500 km
2. Rear leaf spring suspensions recambering done for noise at 5000 km
3. Power steering Belt noise-belt tightened, leaf springs recambering done, Black smoke from exhaust checked at 10000 km
4. Fan blower replaced due to fin noise defect at 11000 km
5. Leaf springs replaced under warranty due to defect at 12000 km
6. Front right disc replaced due to over heating issue. Replacement of master brake distributor at 14000 km
7. Fan belt replaced under warranty for noise at 17000 km
8. Leaf Springs re-cambering done due to noise at 38000 km

Sold the car at 50000 km!

I purchased another Scorpio(the mHawk version)

Now the facts of maintenance as below,

SCORPIO mHawk VLX(2008-2011)
1. Vehicle pulling to left at slow speeds. Brake bleeding done at 183 km!!!!
2. AC expansion valve replaced under warranty due to 'whoa' noise at 900 km
3. Replaced rear view mirror due to buzzer defect at 4500 km
4. Replaced the a.c expansion valve due to a new model due to the problem of ‘whoa’ noise at 7500 km
5. Spare tyre wheel TPMS sensor replaced at 12000 km
6. Clutch Master cylinder (clutch became very hard) & power windows remote switch console(one of the window switch failed) at 12800 km
7. Head Lamps & Tail lamps changed due to water seepage at 25290 km
8. Brake Master Cylinder unit replaced due to issues with braking above 60kmph speeds, at 27000 km
9. Changed Brake booster unit as brakes lost their bite(resulting in me rear ending an Indica at 35 kmph speed!!!)at 33000 km
10.Replaced reverse gear switch near gear box due to faulty switch keeping the rear sensors continuously on at 37000 km
11. Water condensation below steering with carpet becoming wet, ASC did some insulation to AC pipes at 37000 km
12. Steering column replaced due to noise and steering alignment issue at 39000 km
13. Star bearing, propeller shaft replaced due to manufacturing defect(khat khat noise from the rear)at India garage, BLR at 43000 km
14. Clutch release bearing, pressure plates, assembly replaced for juddering at 44000 km
15. Evaporator coil replaced due to defect at 51000 km
16.Spare tyre TPMS sensor replaced at 52000 km
17. Rear left tyre TPMS sensor replaced at 53000 km

Car sold at 56000 km.
Here is a quick data analysis & review:

Total mileage of the two vehicles at time of last problem = 103,000 kms
Total defects that have been listed = 25
Mean mileage between failures = 4120 kms
Assuming average repair time or down time = 3 days per repair
Total number of days in repair = 75 days.

I know some people who have an average driving of 6000 to 8000 kms in a month. For such people the above statistics would imply the following:

a) Send the vehicle for repairs once every 2 weeks
b) If average number of days to repair = 3, then 6 days in a month, vehicle is in repairs
c) For people who have such a high driving requirements, they need to have a backup vehicle which they can use while this vehicle is in repairs
d) Opportunity cost that has been lost - Amount of time, fuel & energy spent on repairs which could have otherwise been spent on productive income earning activities but were wasted in repairs
e) The mental exhaustion of frequent repairs

What does this mean in terms of Total Cost of Ownership?? The maths has been done here.

Dear getsurya

Thanks for your above data. I can say I truly feel your pain. None of us should ever have to suffer this from any vehicle manufacturer.

Last edited by anda60213 : 20th May 2013 at 12:21.
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Old 20th May 2013, 13:23   #185
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by DirtyDan View Post
You can't "process" your way to success. "Process" may be necessary but it is never sufficient. Thus Spake DirtyDan.
Amen.

Processes and measurement frameworks are just tools and not the outcome. Unfortunately, we have that cart these days in front of the horse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by desertfox View Post
Only problem is it lacks AC and Power steering but thats is fine, it is not really required off road, and if going far where highway travel is extensive say over 150 to 200 km then I have a Bolero or Scorpio to travel the highway section and take over from the drivers off road.
This is really the crux of the problem. I had mentioned this in an earlier post too -- that you can't have all of the things you want (a capable offroader, a comfortable highway cruiser and a daily use vehicle) in the same vehicle at less than 10L. That does not justify the shoddy level of work on the Thar, but what we have in the Thar is what we have.

Consider a few other points too.

1. Check the number of MM 540/550 that are listed in the classifieds section. Most of the owners don't seem to hold on to them for more than 1-2 years and the vehicles themselves seem to have persistent issues, even in cases where a lot of work has already gone into them. Not everyone has the time/patience/knowhow to do all of this own their own. I have restored a Gypsy, I loved doing it as a learning experience, but I'll not go down that route again, if I can afford it.

For a fair comparison, you have to assume that a vehicle platform that meets both your highway travel and offroading needs is something that costs at least 11 lakh on the road (the 550+Scorpio or 550+Bolero combination). Most people don't have that luxury and have to pick one vehicle at that price point, even if you ignore the time/effort/money that goes into keeping old Jeeps going.

The bottom line is that both the Thar and the restored old jeeps are solutions that involve a great deal of compromise. The right compromise is a very subjective matter and for some that compromise is not worth it and they won't pick either option.

2. It has been over 2-years since the Thar has come to the market, for all the complaining, I still don't see many of them in the used market. The ratio of restored 550s being sold to used Thars is heavily tilted in the favour of the Thar options being nearly not available in the market. You have to then consider the scenario that, yes, it is a failure for a small niche audience (I once tried counting up all the members of the 4x4 clubs in India and it made no business sense to build a perfect vehicle for them, at any price point, even if the churn was something like they'd buy a new vehicle every year), but for a larger market it has worked well.

I know DB will differ on this point and bring MH01V521 into the picture. But, I will respectfully disagree and limit the comparison to the vehicle that came out of the factory, as that's what 99% of the owners will have to live with.

3. The Thar is not the end of the road, in fact, it is just the beginning. It has proven that a market exists for such a product. Our auto manufacturers have missed many obvious facts about the market. Prime example of this is the Duster and even in that big segment the competitors are struggling to respond to its success. There will be good answers that come up for the Thar, but it will take time. That said, 9/10 times the product that comes out will be a softroader and not something that will please the hardcore offroad enthusiasts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anda60213 View Post
What does this mean in terms of Total Cost of Ownership?? The maths has been done here.
Unfortunately, data will always be skewed towards the cases where there has been persistent problems. The incentive for owners who have had a relatively trouble-free experience to post their story is nearly-zero. There are many Scorpios that have kept going without many problems for tens of thousands of kilometers. Yes, there is the odd problem and routine maintenance, but not much else.

Coming to the Thar itself, a good friend who is an avid tourer owns one (the first gen one). It has done numerous trips to the mountains (often solo ones) and last year we did two weeks in Ladakh in some of the really desolate places with it. The only problem we had was with a broken hand brake cable and otherwise the vehicle performed brilliantly. Otherwise too, other than the godawful state of the plastics and other fittings, the vehicle has not had a single breakdown or other issues. It is also used as a daily drive and when on tour it is often touring in areas where finding even another vehicle on the same road is something that requires a lot of luck. Needless to say the owner has a lot of faith in the reliability of the places he takes the vehicle to.

The shorter version is that, you seem to have wound up with an exceptional lemon in the Thar you've got. Yes, you should have checked it better and yadayada, but the dealer had no business selling you one and the QC processes at the company should have caught it. It is a failure at multiple levels. Ideally, they should have compensated you for your troubles and if they care as much as they claim to about their brand, they should have made sure that the situation should have been rectified. But they didn't and they deserve all your ire and you have all of my sympathies.

But I do disagree with forming conclusions based on the threads on TBHP alone that a particular vehicle is horrible or great.

Last edited by codelust : 20th May 2013 at 13:27.
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Old 20th May 2013, 14:07   #186
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Originally Posted by Skyline GT-R View Post
Saw this good looking Thar with Hard Top & Winch @ Calicut.
Whats that in the front below the grill, bolted to the MM steel plate!

Seriously, why waste money on that winch designed for a snowmobile!
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Old 20th May 2013, 14:12   #187
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Originally Posted by codelust View Post
2. It has been over 2-years since the Thar has come to the market, for all the complaining, I still don't see many of them in the used market.
This does not imply that the owners do no wish to sell them. Ths maximum quote I received locally in Pune was 5 lakhs for my Thar which was just 3 months old & 3000 kms done without telling them of the problems. Imagine if I divulged the list of problems how much would they have quoted. It does not make financial sense to sell the product at such a phenomenal loss. I too would never have sold at that price. Kenneth in Delhi (DisasThar fame) has been quoted 5.25 lacs for his Thar which is also relatively new and he is desperate to sell. When I spoke to him, he said that if he has to sell at 5.25 now, he might as well sell it after 1 or 2 years and still get 5.25.

I got a quote of 6.6 from out of state plus a tax refund in MH of 65000 totaling to 7.25. Not counting the price of accessories, my financial loss was 75000.

Quote:
Originally Posted by codelust View Post
That said, 9/10 times the product that comes out will be a softroader and not something that will please the hardcore offroad enthusiasts.
I look forward to this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by codelust View Post
Unfortunately, data will always be skewed towards the cases where there has been persistent problems. The incentive for owners who have had a relatively trouble-free experience to post their story is nearly-zero. There are many Scorpios that have kept going without many problems for tens of thousands of kilometers. Yes, there is the odd problem and routine maintenance, but not much else.
Getsurya faced issues with one vehicle and again with second. Coincidence?

Unfortunately the data on all the forums suggests otherwise including practical observations in the neighborhood. My cousin brother has purchased scorpio and even he has purchased it 3 times. Yet, as I found out now from him, his story is same as Getsurya's, riddled with troubles. He bears it for several reasons - It is a heavy tonnage vehicle and he can use it to transport load to & from his factory. He has plenty of vehicles in his stable for his use, so if one goes down, he has another to use. the alternative for carrying such loads is Tata's and he says Tata's is worse. Besides his scoprios are driven by drivers who have to take care of issues.

Recently, he purchased an XUV and within the first week he had to send it back to the workshop and it stayed there for 3 months.

Just like Rajith has mentioned in his previous post, people are ok to take these problems as part of the game. Precisely because no one else is offering anything similar within this price range.

Sure there are these odd ones like your friend and XD2 for whom the Thar has had truly minor issues which are non functional in nature. By and large everyone across all the forums seem to agree that the quality problems in Mahindra vehciles are plenty and people have gotten used to accepting these since they believe there is no other option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by codelust View Post
The shorter version is that, you seem to have wound up with an exceptional lemon in the Thar you've got.
Oh yes, you can say that again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by codelust View Post
Yes, you should have checked it better and yadayada,
I did not. I assumed quality was a fundamentally existing in this brand name. Had I read all these posts or spoken to other owners of Mahindra vehicles, I wouldn't be here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by codelust View Post
but the dealer had no business selling you one and the QC processes at the company should have caught it. It is a failure at multiple levels.
And yet they did. If they could do this once, how many more could they have been doing this & continue to do this? Sadly no one to stop them as long as customers continue to accept defects as part of the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by codelust View Post
Ideally, they should have compensated you for your troubles and if they care as much as they claim to about their brand, they should have made sure that the situation should have been rectified. But they didn't and they deserve all your ire and you have all of my sympathies.
Thanks for the sympathies.

Yet they did not. They haven't even bothered to comment on these posts let alone apologize for the troubles I have gone through.

Besides Compensate how? They won't give cash back for my loss. They will only want to make another sale. Why would I want that? Even if they offer a vehicle free to me, I will be the one straddled with problems and issues and I will have to deal with them if it turns out to be defective (the case for which seems to be very compellingly strong from all the inputs on the forums).


Quote:
Originally Posted by codelust View Post
and for some that compromise is not worth it and they won't pick either option.
I am amongst this set. I won't pick either compromise as an option.

Last edited by anda60213 : 20th May 2013 at 14:25.
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Old 20th May 2013, 17:27   #188
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Originally Posted by codelust View Post
Amen.

Processes and measurement frameworks are just tools and not the outcome. Unfortunately, we have that cart these days in front of the horse.



This is really the crux of the problem. I had mentioned this in an earlier post too -- that you can't have all of the things you want (a capable offroader, a comfortable highway cruiser and a daily use vehicle) in the same vehicle at less than 10L. That does not justify the shoddy level of work on the Thar, but what we have in the Thar is what we have.

Consider a few other points too.

1. Check the number of MM 540/550 that are listed in the classifieds section. Most of the owners don't seem to hold on to them for more than 1-2 years and the vehicles themselves seem to have persistent issues, even in cases where a lot of work has already gone into them. Not everyone has the time/patience/knowhow to do all of this own their own. I have restored a Gypsy, I loved doing it as a learning experience, but I'll not go down that route again, if I can afford it.

For a fair comparison, you have to assume that a vehicle platform that meets both your highway travel and offroading needs is something that costs at least 11 lakh on the road (the 550+Scorpio or 550+Bolero combination). Most people don't have that luxury and have to pick one vehicle at that price point, even if you ignore the time/effort/money that goes into keeping old Jeeps going.

The bottom line is that both the Thar and the restored old jeeps are solutions that involve a great deal of compromise. The right compromise is a very subjective matter and for some that compromise is not worth it and they won't pick either option.

2. It has been over 2-years since the Thar has come to the market, for all the complaining, I still don't see many of them in the used market. The ratio of restored 550s being sold to used Thars is heavily tilted in the favour of the Thar options being nearly not available in the market. You have to then consider the scenario that, yes, it is a failure for a small niche audience (I once tried counting up all the members of the 4x4 clubs in India and it made no business sense to build a perfect vehicle for them, at any price point, even if the churn was something like they'd buy a new vehicle every year), but for a larger market it has worked well.

I know DB will differ on this point and bring MH01V521 into the picture. But, I will respectfully disagree and limit the comparison to the vehicle that came out of the factory, as that's what 99% of the owners will have to live with.

3. The Thar is not the end of the road, in fact, it is just the beginning. It has proven that a market exists for such a product. Our auto manufacturers have missed many obvious facts about the market. Prime example of this is the Duster and even in that big segment the competitors are struggling to respond to its success. There will be good answers that come up for the Thar, but it will take time. That said, 9/10 times the product that comes out will be a softroader and not something that will please the hardcore offroad enthusiasts.



Unfortunately, data will always be skewed towards the cases where there has been persistent problems. The incentive for owners who have had a relatively trouble-free experience to post their story is nearly-zero. There are many Scorpios that have kept going without many problems for tens of thousands of kilometers. Yes, there is the odd problem and routine maintenance, but not much else.

Coming to the Thar itself, a good friend who is an avid tourer owns one (the first gen one). It has done numerous trips to the mountains (often solo ones) and last year we did two weeks in Ladakh in some of the really desolate places with it. The only problem we had was with a broken hand brake cable and otherwise the vehicle performed brilliantly. Otherwise too, other than the godawful state of the plastics and other fittings, the vehicle has not had a single breakdown or other issues. It is also used as a daily drive and when on tour it is often touring in areas where finding even another vehicle on the same road is something that requires a lot of luck. Needless to say the owner has a lot of faith in the reliability of the places he takes the vehicle to.

The shorter version is that, you seem to have wound up with an exceptional lemon in the Thar you've got. Yes, you should have checked it better and yadayada, but the dealer had no business selling you one and the QC processes at the company should have caught it. It is a failure at multiple levels. Ideally, they should have compensated you for your troubles and if they care as much as they claim to about their brand, they should have made sure that the situation should have been rectified. But they didn't and they deserve all your ire and you have all of my sympathies.

But I do disagree with forming conclusions based on the threads on TBHP alone that a particular vehicle is horrible or great.
Obviously a purpose built vehicle for testing and demos cannot be compared to a vehicle on the commercial sale.

But what is not divulged is :

What is the weight of CRDE and MHawk engines.

Is an MHawk engine heavier than DI engine that it cannot be mounted on solid front axles.

What was so special about the MH01V test vehicle different from production vehicles.

If team Bhp was crucial to its development from day 1 why were all aspects not discussed here, how did Mahindra end up with such a poor compromise ?

Did team Bhp ever suggest to design a vehicle with the crudest interior possible and an off road vehicle with such poor tow points ?

Lot of unanswered questions.
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Old 20th May 2013, 20:43   #189
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Dear getsurya

Thanks for your above data. I can say I truly feel your pain. None of us should ever have to suffer this from any vehicle manufacturer.
Anda,

Thanks and please understand that I also had wonderful times with both the rides. However, having two more cars at home always helped with the 'back up' mode whenever the Scorpios' were at the workshop. One big credit in the entire rigmarole is to the Automotive workshop folks(who were simply FANTASTIC!!) who knew how I love my cars and would ensure full coverage for me 24 X 7. Also factor my effort and time(apart from money) that I must have spent on all these occasions at the workshop. I was always present in person with the car for all the works(Except the Bangalore workshop visit for the star bearing and the transmission axle replacement due to my work requirements).

But does that absolve the M&M for a bad quality product- NO!
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Old 21st May 2013, 01:17   #190
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Originally Posted by anda60213 View Post
This does not imply that the owners do no wish to sell them.
You have first-hand experience of this, so I'll go with it.

I was, though, pointing that out to DesertFox about the comparo between restored MM5xx and the Thar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anda60213 View Post
Getsurya faced issues with one vehicle and again with second. Coincidence?
They have QC issues for certain. I'll agree fully with you on that, with M&M, the higher end model tends to get more of these problems. That said, the girlfriend has a nearly 4-year-old mHawk LX and save one bust alternator (replaced with no fuss under warranty) it has been an excellent companion on our roads. My bro-in-law has a XUV 500 and the only problem he's had so far are the brake discs accumulating rust in just a few months after he got his vehicle.

Does that mean I'll say M&M products are free of flaws? Nope. What I will say is that when you get a bad one, they'll make life really hard for you and the risk of that happening is exponentially higher in the top-end models and the failure rate on their models (at various levels) is quite high. But you can't ignore the fact that there are also good experiences there.

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Originally Posted by anda60213 View Post
I did not. I assumed quality was a fundamentally existing in this brand name. Had I read all these posts or spoken to other owners of Mahindra vehicles, I wouldn't be here.
When I picked up my Swift Zxi in 2007, I'd not been a member here nor had I bothered checking out the PDI details and other things. I picked it up because I liked the look of the car and didn't care about much else. I was REALLY lucky to wind up with a flawless piece, but I'd have been madder than hell if something had gone wrong and they treated me the way they treated you. I'm fully with you on this.

This is absolutely wrong; RISE or no RISE.

It is completely the company's and dealer's responsibility to deliver a perfectly good model when they take your hard-earned money. If there is a problem, the manufacturer has to make it up to you. No two questions about that.

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Originally Posted by desertfox View Post
Is an MHawk engine heavier than DI engine that it cannot be mounted on solid front axles.
I'm probably the worst possible candidate to answer that question as I know/understand little about these things. What I do remember is that there is a thread on this aspect where someone has attempted it and, boy, did it create a ruckus.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-te...olid-axle.html (Mahindra Thar - *Converted* Independent Front Suspension to Solid Axle)

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What was so special about the MH01V test vehicle different from production vehicles.
It does not make an iota of a difference what MH01V was able to do. What is rolling off the production line is not a clone of MH01V and if I break something on my (hypothetical) brand new Thar or have an accident in it due to deficient brakes, saying "but, MH01V could do it" won't get M&M to even cover for labour in fixing the damage.

I respect DB a lot for what must have been a really crazy process to get the Thar on the road (been in similar situations in my professional life), but MH01V has no relevance to people who are buying the Thar from dealers in its stock form.

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Originally Posted by desertfox View Post
If team Bhp was crucial to its development from day 1 why were all aspects not discussed here, how did Mahindra end up with such a poor compromise?
It is a compromise for the offroaders, but not for people who want a relatively comfortable and problem-free Jeep that does not require you to lose sleep over which engine swap is the best option for you, depending on your desired application (with AC/without AC/what gear ratio to run etc).

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Originally Posted by desertfox View Post
Did team Bhp ever suggest to design a vehicle with the crudest interior possible and an off road vehicle with such poor tow points?
I don't like the end product (at the current price point and the effort/money it will take to make it right), but, strangely, I can completely understand how the eventual product came into being.

Can you really both like and dislike a product at the same time? It seems that I can.

Last edited by codelust : 21st May 2013 at 01:21.
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Old 21st May 2013, 10:20   #191
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I have been following this thread for quite sometime. I somehow think that the THAR or for that matter any Jeep from Mahindra's stable is like Royal Enfield's Bullet. Each has it's own quirks and are somewhat temperamental beasts.

The niggles of newly launched Mahindra Thar are very much similar to the newly launched RE Classic Series. The fact is the company doesn't care as long as its cash registers are ringing and they are selling their so called "Life Style" vehicles to gullible diehard customers in huge numbers. WE as customers should stand together as united and teach them a lesson at the crap they're throwing at us. Both RE and Mahindra are milking the hapless customers with timeless beauties like the Bullet and Jeep. Infact Damagers (aka Managers) at Mahindra might have borrowed this idea by studying the market where RE Bullets were selling like hot cakes inspite of problems like rusting on day one, parts falling off, paint chipping, etc. The fact was the new RE bullet was being purchased by hordes of customers who always wanted to own a Bullet and had a perception that since RE is charging 1 lakh odd for their product it must be having top notch quality and better reliability, but the gullible customers of RE were in for a surprise similar to what the Thar customers are in terms of quality, reliability, after sales, etc.

But I certainly do agree that in this ultramodern age Mahindra has the tenacity to charge 8 lakh odd for a Thar that is riddled with problems and takes its customers for a ride. It is just not acceptable that the screws and bolts fall off from a brand new vehicle, brakes don't have enough bite for such a heavy vehicle, rubber parts keep getting loose, interior plastic sucks and even cuts or bruises with its sharp edges, the AC blower doesn't adjust as per owners need, is this a Test Vehicle or what with so many defects. No doubt the Brand Value of a Mahindra doesn't match upto the Brand Value of the true JEEP(currently owned by Fiat originally owned by Willys Overland followed by Chrysler corp.) from USA.

I think rebuilding a Mahindra Jeep(I have serious reservations by associating the legendary JEEP's name with Mahindra) is the best option available as long as the bunch of Jokers at Mahindra keep playing the same game.

Last edited by navin_v8 : 21st May 2013 at 10:23. Reason: spelling mistake
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Old 21st May 2013, 23:39   #192
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Originally Posted by navin_v8 View Post
I think rebuilding a Mahindra Jeep(I have serious reservations by associating the legendary JEEP's name with Mahindra) is the best option available as long as the bunch of Jokers at Mahindra keep playing the same game.
After BCCI, now we have bunch of jokers in M&M too!

Well, its not M&M or RE's fault if they are laughing all the way to the banks and the cash registers are filling up, we are buying what they are making and selling!

Both know people have childhood dreams of owning a Jeep and riding a Bullet, we are grown ups and have the purchasing power to buy those two to just full fill our childhood dreams.

Also some people buy jeeps just to turn heads, even if its broken down by the road side!

Duster has shown and proved what a small compact SUV can do and would do more in 4WD variant.

FM has jumped in with Gurkha II, Tata (Sierra/Sumo/Safari) was confused inspite of having the largest fleet of SUVs, and lost to M&M (Bolero/Scorpio/XUV).

Maruti needs to think about launching Jimny and not the Alpha, which is just a concept.

We, will keep buying because we have the option and the moolah to make our dreams (Jeep/Bullet) true.

OR

JBYO (Just Build Your Own).
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Old 22nd May 2013, 00:28   #193
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Originally Posted by desertfox View Post
I have built a Jeep for myself. A Superb off-roader absolutely unstoppable and not only off roading I even wade shallow rivers in it.

Go to section 4x4 vehicles and see Allahabad Jeep restoration project.

I completely rebuilt the engine to the highest precision standards, got the fuel injector serviced and recaliberated at Bosch, fitted new batteries and tyres, rebuilt complete suspension and electricals ( full overhaul ) made a new canopy, and people say it is one of the best MM550 engine and gearbox they have ever seen.

This was purchased directly from an Army auction in Allahabad from a lot of 24 vehicles. The purchase price itself was Rs. 165,000.

Spent another 180,000 is building it, the final price with registration came to around Rs. 360,000.

But is is some offroader. It has the XDP 3 engine.

Only problem is it lacks AC and Power steering but thats is fine, it is not really required off road, and if going far where highway travel is extensive say over 150 to 200 km then I have a Bolero or Scorpio to travel the highway section and take over from the drivers off road.

As for the winch installed on that Thar in the picture, it must be a Taiwani derivative or Chinese winch, which can pull out a kids tricycle if it gets bogged down in some soft sand / mud right outside the house. Not good enough even to retrieve a Polaris ATV I promise you. But a winch on the bumper makes a Macho man offroader even more Macho perhaps and attracts more girls! than a Thar with no winch.
desertfox, no doubt you've built quite the mean machine for off-road. I do have some questions though.

1. What is the cruising speed that you can sustain on a long trip?

2. How is the ride?

3. How would you rate it on NVH levels? Better or worse than the Thar?

4. What is the handling like at 70 kph? Can you make a lane change at that speed?

5. How many jeeps did you build before this one?

Not trying to be rude or clever, just want the full details.
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Old 22nd May 2013, 09:42   #194
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desertfox, no doubt you've built quite the mean machine for off-road. I do have some questions though.

1. What is the cruising speed that you can sustain on a long trip?

Offroad mean machine is meant for OFFROAD and not for cruising! buy a Thar for cruising and turning heads!

2. How is the ride?

Whats an offroad vehicle got to do with ride?

3. How would you rate it on NVH levels? Better or worse than the Thar?

For better NVH levels buy a Range Rover!

4. What is the handling like at 70 kph? Can you make a lane change at that speed?

While offroading one doesnt go at 70kph and dont change lanes!

5. How many jeeps did you build before this one?

Thats a stupid Question for Shahid, he is got a five star rating in offroading segment.

Not trying to be rude or clever, just want the full details.
Sir, you have contradicted your self by writing "Mean Machine for Offroad" then you ask the above mentioned questions!

Im not trying to be rude or clever, just want to know if people know what is an offroad 4WD vehicle is! Is it for Crusing and Turning heads or is it "Thar hates Tar"!

Thar or no thar, dedicated offroad 4WD vehicles are built as per the requirements and needs of one's taste and terrain the vehicle will be used on. Some people buy it in rush to put "Balloon Tyres" , Chrome Alloys, Loud Music and turn heads and go to malls and hardly go offroad, and on the other hand some people build their own OTR 4WD.

While test driving the Thar, salesman told "Sir this is a 4x4 vehicle, with 4x4 steering and 4x4 Engine"!

That was enough for me to stay away from the vehicle and M&M.

Last edited by Parm : 22nd May 2013 at 09:47.
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Old 22nd May 2013, 13:55   #195
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

What does it take to mount NEF or MHawk in THAR DI's solid front axles?
Is weight the issue? Does that require transmission change too.?
Is that a direct fit with no cutting and welding.?

Regards,
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