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Old 22nd May 2013, 17:29   #196
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by Parm View Post
That was enough for me to stay away from the vehicle and M&M.
Dear Parm Ji and other respected members,
Whatever said by everyone is true, but have we (including me) ever thought that if 'Project Thar' would have not seen the day of light, we were not even discussing/bashing about it. We should appreciate M&M and DB sir & team to give us a modern platform to start with. Everyone can see the change which Mahindra has bought by launching Thar (obviously to make money – there is no free lunch in this world), people have started recognizing Jeeps. Otherwise what we could have told to our future generation? That, once upon a time there was a vehicle which was used in wars and later adopted by people to reach places and see this is the picture of Jeep which I used to have. Someone is at least trying to keep this alive. Its still a long way to go, but they should get credit for their initiative as well as they should get cussed for what they have not done correctly.

How they are trying to change Indian offroading scenario. Now at least people know what offroading is. Remember, when you used to explain people that offroading is neither race nor rally, its different. Crowd is now aware of this sport and In coming year I as an offroader really want Mahindra to have international level offroading competition which allows all make of vehicles from across globe.

Indian automobile companies are known for using their customers for testing their beta products. But what about government, why don’t they make rules strict enough to avoid this?
buck stops there.......
Shubhendra Singh
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Old 22nd May 2013, 17:38   #197
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But what about government, why don’t they make rules strict enough to avoid this?
buck stops there.......
Shubhendra Singh
The buck stops with us, the customers to stop accepting poor quality output. If we all refuse to accept sub standard quality (all being the operative word), then companies have no choice but to improve themselves.
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Old 22nd May 2013, 20:31   #198
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Here is a picture of a unlimited 4 Door that my friend did in Ranchi
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Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!-560971_10151095046481089_2118288748_n.jpg  

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Old 23rd May 2013, 07:24   #199
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by venson View Post
What does it take to mount NEF or MHawk in THAR DI's solid front axles?
Is weight the issue? Does that require transmission change too.?
Is that a direct fit with no cutting and welding.?

Regards,
venson
This sort of thing is generally not done because newer engines are ECU-sensor controlled and these are not easily transplanted from one vehicle to another. There are also legal and insurance issues to contend with. However, one can opt for older non-ECU motors that still perform well. Also, the idea of needing to go over 90kph in any kind of Jeep strikes many of us as a nebulous proposition. I don't like the feel of my Thar CrDe over 80-90kph. Doubt DI would be an improvement.

Last edited by DirtyDan : 23rd May 2013 at 07:38.
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Old 23rd May 2013, 09:48   #200
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by Shubhendra View Post
(obviously to make money – there is no free lunch in this world)
Shubhendra Singh
I am a bit taken aback by the above sentence. Obviously no company or business is doing their work for charity neither are WE customers doing a favour to the company by buying their products it is for our personal and recreational use and we are paying them our Hard Earned Money. How can a 60+ years old company like Mahindra with so much experience not be able to get their so called "Lifestyle Vehicle: THAR" THE RIGHT FIRST TIME inspite of charging 8 odd lakhs for this vehicle and the same vehicle sans the engine and other parts(MM540DP, Commander, etc.) had been in production since so many years. It shows that Mahindra like good old days is just assembling the parts and that too without paying attention to basic parts. This is just not acceptable for a Brand New Vehicle just out of the showroom. I dont want Free Lunch but atleast give me an acceptable (NO WAY I used the wrong word "acceptable". In today's scenario I want a "100% defect free A1 Quality") product.
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Old 23rd May 2013, 10:53   #201
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

There are certain things that I do like about the Thar and I am going to go about adding these refinements in my MM550.

I had gone to Mayapuri market and Karol Bagh auto market yesterday and drew some good conclusions.

Canopy - The new black canopy material of the Thar manufactured at nasik is available in the open market now. A seat and hood fabricator in Mayapuri stocks it. Also some high quality 40 micron tranparent material for windows on the canopy.

It will be better than the Thar, when making a bespoke canopy, I will use the best quality 3M velcro tapes, the best YKK zippers and have it centre opening, side opening and even the front part opening and rolling with velcro tapes as per the demand of the particular time.

I will have patches of velcro affixed to arrest all those loose retainer belts flapping around,

The present canvas canopy is customized this will be a further refinement over it.

CRDe engine - Engine swap possible. CRDe engines removed from older Scorpios are available for Rs. 70,000 to 90,000 and also the expertise for mounting them perfectly.

This will be fitted along with its own 5 speed gearbox and transfer case, but transfer case shift will be manual.

One thing I have seen when driving the MM550 is that it simply screams for an overdrive from 70 KM to 100 KM speed.

For the pundits who advocate on Thars highway capability, the highest speed limit in North India is 100 kmph and the road too is only fit for 100 kmph on the Greater Noida - Agra Yamuna Expressway.

The MM 550 followed my Scorpio right behind me where I had set the cruise control to 95 kmph.

I had stopped midway and checked for engine overheating etc, but everything was perfect. It was the steed for the Indian Army afterall.

Pulley for running AC is already fitted on this engine.

A new compressor available from Subros, more powerful than the Scorpio O/E which will deliver better results.

Old Bolero dashboard can be cleaned, refurbished adjusted to size and fitted in the MM550 with the blower installed without much ado. Also a heater to go along with it.

Power steering - possible but I am not interested. The results in other MM550 s have been failures in most cases. Not really required, I dont have oversize tyres with a larger contact area or anything in my MM 550.

I am going ahead with it, lets see how it comes out.

Last edited by desertfox : 23rd May 2013 at 11:02.
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Old 23rd May 2013, 18:30   #202
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by Parm View Post
While test driving the Thar, salesman told "Sir this is a 4x4 vehicle, with 4x4 steering and 4x4 Engine"!
Dear Parm - hahaha, good one there, but you are lucky, you got a "small dose" from the salesman. I got a "super-big" dose on "D day" (somewhere in the third week of December 2010! ). I could not even laugh that day, so am adding the LOL smiley here. As I am stopping short of typing what I was asked that day (I'm a decent guy, you know!), let's have a conversation on "Wild and Whacky Jeep Comments". Dudes, enjoy, this is gonna be fun!

.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 24th May 2013, 00:57   #203
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear Parm - hahaha, good one there, but you are lucky, you got a "small dose" from the salesman. I got a "super-big" dose on "D day" (somewhere in the third week of December 2010! ). I could not even laugh that day, so am adding the LOL smiley here. As I am stopping short of typing what I was asked that day (I'm a decent guy, you know!), let's have a conversation on "Wild and Whacky Jeep Comments". Dudes, enjoy, this is gonna be fun!

.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
Sir ji, imagine a FM sales man selling a Gurkha II which is a World's first EOV 4x4x4!
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Old 24th May 2013, 13:06   #204
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear Parm - hahaha, good one there, but you are lucky, you got a "small dose" from the salesman. I got a "super-big" dose on "D day" (somewhere in the third week of December 2010! ). I could not even laugh that day, so am adding the LOL smiley here. As I am stopping short of typing what I was asked that day (I'm a decent guy, you know!), let's have a conversation on "Wild and Whacky Jeep Comments". Dudes, enjoy, this is gonna be fun!

.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
Truely strange I would say. Even before for the last 60 years was Mahindra not producing and selling 4x4 CJ3B, MM540, Classic, Hunter, CL500, why is the 4x4 concept still so alien to the staff and salesforce.

Atleast I can tell you that during my childhood days I would have personally accompanied my family to purchase 3 or 4 Jeeps from Lawley Sen the Bihar distributors for Mahindra, I never felt anything odd, the guys knew everything about offroading and the transfer levers then, why not now ? Wrong training ? What comes out of a Mahindra Showroom essentially is an off roader be it Bolero, Scorpio, Thar or that one saloon car vento or something ?
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Old 24th May 2013, 22:05   #205
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by desertfox View Post
Truly strange I would say. For the last 60 years was Mahindra not producing and selling 4x4 CJ3B, MM540, Classic, Hunter, CL500, why is the 4x4 concept still so alien to the staff and salesforce? The guys knew everything about offroading and the transfer levers then, why not now? Wrong training?
Dear Shahidbhai - please read the comparison, you will get the answers. All are good but the last one is deadly. Enjoy!

In those days - for people, vehicles were vehicles
Today - for people, vehicles are projects

In those days - people used to work in India on vehicles
Today - people pretend to work on laptops and iPads. They also go to "phoren"!

In those days - people who used to work on vehicles were looked up to and considered wise, so that others could learn something from them
Today - people who still make the mistake of working on vehicles are considered as idiots (perfectly shown in "3 idiots")

In those days - real improvements used to happen on a daily basis but people did not shout about it
Today - fancy comments like "only change is constant" are made, that means that anything you ever did in your life upto now which gave good results is not good now! HaHaHa!

In those days - there were engineers who did work
Today - there are managers who just look over the shoulders of engineers who pretend to do work

In those days - people knew the difference between the front of the vehicle and the back of the vehicle.
Today - people pride themselves on openly declaring that they need not know the difference between the front of the vehicle and the back of the vehicle!

See "3 Idiots", you will be very clear. The last one is not mine, one customer actually told me this in the dealer's workshop! When I told this to my "the then Boss", he wanted to hit himself with his shoes on his head!

Times have changed, Shahid Sir! Its time to make fancy presentations to prove to people that: Sir, your vehicle has four wheels, so it is "Four Wheel Drive"!

ENJOY!

.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

PS - if you are persistent these days, you can prove, that if there is a 4 stroke engine and a 2 stroke engine, there can also be a single stroke engine! You may even get a budget to start the program and you will be "severely reprimanded" if you don't spend the budgeted money before 31 March! .
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Old 25th May 2013, 06:45   #206
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

I think the THAR is a WIP vehicle, a guniea pig from M&M, look at what all happened from the beginning

- They introduce 2 models with different engines and front suspension, they did not know which road to take, the plush one or the rugged one. What we needed was 1 model
- They thought the 4x4 guys would not want AC, now the 4x4 guys are mostly MNC guys who are used to AC everywhere, hence they had to retrofit the AC
- The THAR comes out unfinished, that's the reason they have so many customizing options, so that you can finish the unfinished work
- The price, they overshot the budget and priced the vehicle above the target customer, try talking to your Dad/Wife on replacing your current ride with the THAR

The THAR should have been a 5 lakh product, it should have been basic with add-on options, you could decorate it suiting your budget

Look at Appartments, they are in the same building, same specification, but inside, each one is unique, the poor can do it their way and the rich and do it their own way
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Old 25th May 2013, 08:01   #207
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Thanks a ton for your balanced views Shubhendraji . This is what is needed than taking sides.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shubhendra View Post
Dear Parm Ji and other respected members,
Whatever said by everyone is true, but have we (including me) ever thought that if 'Project Thar' would have not seen the day of light, we were not even discussing/bashing about it. We should appreciate M&M and DB sir & team to give us a modern platform to start with.
Thats the reason I Will buy it some day . Yes the platform thing. I dont care if its overpriced by a Lakh of Rs or so, I dont care if some doors rattle or some dash screws fall .

There is really no other option/alternative for this 'well bashed Thar '. NO I don't see one .

If an well abused & auctioned & then refurbished vehicle is an option as a reliability symbol, then people must remember what happened to a Diff of a Mumbai 550 ngcs Jeep ( forum member here ) which traveled a long way to attend a southern OTR . ( & all such instances of braking all sorts of Parts )

Jeeps In India, Read M&M particularly, be it old/new, 550/Thar are NO way reliable ( In some Jap sedan sense ) & that's a fact. But I will certainly choose a New vehicle & face some music rather than some old .



Quote:
Everyone can see the change which Mahindra has bought by launching Thar (obviously to make money – there is no free lunch in this world),
Its not a crime. You can see people all around FB groups, building brands & selling Tins to Tail lights

Quote:
people have started recognizing Jeeps.====
True Sir.


Quote:
Indian automobile companies are known for using their customers for testing their beta products. But what about government, why don’t they make rules strict enough to avoid this?
buck stops there.......
Shubhendra Singh
Quote:
Originally Posted by anda60213 View Post
The buck stops with us, the customers to stop accepting poor quality output. If we all refuse to accept sub standard quality (all being the operative word), then companies have no choice but to improve themselves.
Sadly there is NO such thing as customer as King, not yet & Never will be in India . ( I am hoping for that day for past 24 years, since we bought a New MM Jeep )

You want a Jeep ? Adjust yourself or leave it . What we can do is make most out of it or leave it. There is no end to complaining as the mighty corporations are not going to take any note of it, till it bites them commercially & we sadly cant do that.

Sudarshan

PS . I am not going to use it for stunts , I know how to live with MM products, If you really want them to last long

Last edited by Sudarshan : 25th May 2013 at 08:12.
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Old 25th May 2013, 11:12   #208
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Jeeps are a purchase by the heart are no by the brain. Mahindra & Service are two words that never sync. I had been to their sales point to get the quote for Bolero. The sales personnel seemed to be least interested in pushing his product. No test drive was offered. I gave my number to him expecting a call back...... no one gave a followup call.

If this is the sort of service before buying a vehicle, then what can I expect from them as after sales service???

Mahindra should learn from the FIAT experience with TVS and must definitely revamp itself.
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Old 25th May 2013, 16:39   #209
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Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
Sadly there is NO such thing as customer as King, not yet & Never will be in India . ( I am hoping for that day for past 24 years, since we bought a New MM Jeep )

There is no end to complaining as the mighty corporations are not going to take any note of it, till it bites them commercially & we sadly cant do that.
Very true. This is the sad and unfortunate reality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
There is really no other option/alternative for this 'well bashed Thar '. NO I don't see one .

Jeeps In India, Read M&M particularly, be it old/new, 550/Thar are NO way reliable ( In some Jap sedan sense ) & that's a fact. But I will certainly choose a New vehicle & face some music rather than some old .
Very true. Anyone would expect a new vehicle to be better reliability (in a comparitive sense and not an absolute sense) than an old one of the same brand without bringing comparison with Japanese brands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
I dont care if its overpriced by a Lakh of Rs or so, I dont care if some doors rattle or some dash screws fall .
Where does one draw the line in this case? A screw in the dash falls off is acceptable? The dashboard itself falls off is acceptable? The B pillar falls off is acceptable? The engine falls off is acceptable?

This is where relative perception comes into play of what one expects from an old vehicle and hence what one is getting from a new one. If someone has had a worse experience with an old vehicle, then even the bad experiences of a new one appears to be good since what they had before was even worse. And vice versa is also true.

The bottom line remains that just because people choose to accept poor quality does not mean it is good quality. And everyone on this forum seems to agree on this.

What however does make a difference to each individual is where would they draw the line with respect to what is acceptable to them.
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Old 26th May 2013, 10:58   #210
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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What however does make a difference to each individual is where would they draw the line with respect to what is acceptable to them.
Very True. For guys like Arka or Fazal, they will actually be very happy if they could everything as an amalgamation of parts, so they can re-assemble it, the right way. Although I would like that, I am a technical dud when it comes to the mechanicals. I would prefer it being right from the factory itself.

Didn't choose the Thar Crde (IFS), didn't like the Di (narrower track, bad bits and pieces) as well. So for now, I have to be content doing only the urban grind.
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