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Old 26th May 2013, 14:02   #211
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Talking re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by discoverwild View Post
=== Although I would like that, I am a technical dud when it comes to the mechanicals. I would prefer it being right from the factory itself.

Didn't choose the Thar Crde (IFS), didn't like the Di (narrower track, bad bits and pieces) as well. So for now, I have to be content doing only the urban grind.
I can see you are blessed by the almighty , but I am not as lucky one .

The addiction of the Jeep ( 4x4 ) is so deep rooted that its like having a 'No choice ' & ' No return ' situation . We the Jeep addicted have to make do with what ever is offered ( thrown ) to us .

May god keep people away from this curse called Jeep thing

Sudarshan
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Old 27th May 2013, 11:38   #212
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

This weekend I was off road again in the same region of Kasganj and Badayun. A drive of about 270 Km from Delhi + 270 KM back.

The MM 550 did superbly off road during the day and night.

My friend Anirudh did not take his Thar this time but joined me in his 4x4 Scorpio LX which is a fine vehicle.

But I felt very bad, it was inhuman for me to sit in a Bolero and the MM 550 following behind me, it was 47 deg C and this kind of behaviour was inhuman for the 2 drivers on the wheels of the MM550.

Every 50 to 80 KM, wherever there was an opportunity we stopped and sprayed water on the MM550 canvas top so that evaporating heat could coll the cabin a bit. A bit of water on the Bolero evaporator also helped keep things cool.

DB SIr, is it possible to install an AC compressor in the current set up of the XDP3 engine ?

What needs to be done, where will the AC pulley be installed.

Will an evaporator installed up front hamper the radiator air flow significantly ?

Please advice.

Last edited by desertfox : 27th May 2013 at 11:40.
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Old 27th May 2013, 11:53   #213
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

It is very easy to install AC in MM550 with XD3P engine. However, your cooling system has to be in top shape. You should also monitor the temp gauge very carefully. It will be a Damocles sword hanging over your head.

I should have sorted out the cooling system before installing AC, but I didn't since I was in a hurry to attend Bangalore OTR. It basically killed my engine.
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Old 27th May 2013, 12:28   #214
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

My radiator is perfect. There are no leaks and I use good quality coolant. The radiator fan works perfectly, all hose pipes are new, even offroad the temp gauge never crosses 80 Deg C.

I will install a new canopy with the Thar Black canopy material which has a plastic vinyl insulation on the underside. Besides I will install a seperator where the driver seats side becomes isolated from the rear cabin for less work on the cooling system part. Make sure there are no leaks. Install a carpet on the front area floor. I have it already. Check all rubber linings and close gaps. What else needs to be done ?

Can you post some pictures here of your engine compartment where the compressor is installed and of your dashboard, if possible of the blower as well, maybe by starting a new thread in the 4x4 technical section - installing an AC in the MM550 please.

Last edited by desertfox : 27th May 2013 at 12:30.
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Old 27th May 2013, 13:27   #215
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

It is already posted in my MM550 thread. It will be offtopic in this thread.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ve...ml#post3014529 (Hardtop MM550 : A family friendly offroader joins Team-BHP)
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Old 27th May 2013, 15:15   #216
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
You want a Jeep ? Adjust yourself or leave it . What we can do is make most out of it or leave it. There is no end to complaining as the mighty corporations are not going to take any note of it, till it bites them commercially & we sadly cant do that.

Sudarshan

PS . I am not going to use it for stunts , I know how to live with MM products, If you really want them to last long
Ohh So you expect every M&M consumer to be a DIYer like you? In this day and age, not everyone has the time, the effort, the tools, the place to store tools and the money to get on a perpetual DIY spree for buying a product that fails you. A ridiculously small percentage of people have these resources.

Every consumer wants the product he buys to LAST. The long and short of it a very relative subject.

Quote:
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Dear Shahidbhai - please read the comparison, you will get the answers. All are good but the last one is deadly. Enjoy!
With all due respect DB - Are you suggesting that it is the consumers who are to be blamed for not accepting a sub-par product which M&M has made available to the Indian consumers? Please correct me if I'm reading it all wrong below.

In those days - for people, vehicles were vehicles
Today - for people, vehicles are projects


For the masses - vehicles are still vehicles - the product is being bought by the masses. It might sound like a lot but M&M needed to give a foolproof product to its consumers in the first place - Not a fixer upper! Its the product that is giving rise to the "project" - be it to improve it and/or to ruin it.

In those days - people used to work in India on vehicles
Today - people pretend to work on laptops and iPads. They also go to "phoren"!

Access to information platforms (ipads/laptops and more importantly, the internet) has only made the "consumer" more informed than they used to be. Are you suggesting that the end consumer not research before buying a vehicle or just read the product brochure and buy the product??
Being well travelled is in no way a reason for a sales rep to not explain the products to the consumer. If anything - a well traveled consumer is a much more informed consumer and has every right to know as to what he's buying - given the advantage of seeing the consumer market overseas.

In those days - people who used to work on vehicles were looked up to and considered wise, so that others could learn something from them
Today - people who still make the mistake of working on vehicles are considered as idiots (perfectly shown in "3 idiots")

Is that so?? I wonder where all the "SIRS" "JI / JEE" and "GURU" connotations came up all of a sudden. The respect has always been there and will continue to be there. Wouldn't you agree that it might even be the SIR's and JEE's that should be made accountable for sharing their views to make the "consumer" informed and/or suggestions on how the product itself can be improved by DIYing. Its a spiral!

In those days - real improvements used to happen on a daily basis but people did not shout about it
Today - fancy comments like "only change is constant" are made, that means that anything you ever did in your life upto now which gave good results is not good now! HaHaHa!

I agree with you on this one and would like to quote another cliche here - "In a blind mans world, the one-eyed man is king". If only there were better options that the THAR CRDe could be compared to - Having said this, it does not mean that M&M justify the shortcomings/failures (mechanicals) of the Thar - Ohh wait, M&M isn't!

In those days - there were engineers who did work
Today - there are managers who just look over the shoulders of engineers who pretend to do work

How is this the end consumers problem?? What does this have to do with a consumer wanting a complete product for which he's paying for? Its still being marketed and sold right?? If the product isn't the way it was supposed to be (100%), don't sell it!! Not many care about how a product moved from inception to realisation!

In those days - people knew the difference between the front of the vehicle and the back of the vehicle.
Today - people pride themselves on openly declaring that they need not know the difference between the front of the vehicle and the back of the vehicle!

Again - Do you really expect every consumer (or most of the masses that are buying the Thar) to know the "intricate" workings of the product like you do? It simply isn't possible and should not be expected from the consumer.

Its completely "normal" for consumers (past/present/potentials) to voice their concerns with regards to the Thar. Think of it as feedback that might help improving a product, whereby making it fool-proof (or even idiot-proof for that matter).

I hope that this post is seen in good light - I'm just a potential consumer at this stage and threads like these just don't make me want to be a potential M&M consumer.

An old motorcycle advertisement comes to mind - All I want from M&M is a vehicle where i can just "Fill it, Shut it and Forget it " I don't think this is asking for too much .

Last edited by R32_GTR : 27th May 2013 at 15:30.
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Old 27th May 2013, 16:30   #217
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post


In those days - there were engineers who did work
Today - there are managers who just look over the shoulders of engineers who pretend to do work

Is there a thread around here on corporate/group dynamics? I think we might have some interesting posts.

Behram, look at all the threads, all the posts on the Thar. You surely found a lot of folks interested in off-roading or bad-roading....or whatever it is.

When you matriculate over to Maruti maybe you can show them all the mild and wild interest the Thar has generated and then build us a world beater.
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Old 27th May 2013, 18:12   #218
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Cool re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by R32_GTR View Post
Ohh So you expect every M&M consumer to be a DIYer like you?
No -No NO ! why I would like some competitors doing their own DIY & then be able to argue with me on the same level by giving me 'due respect ' ?? Hell No .

Quote:
In this day and age, not everyone has the time, the effort, the tools, the place to store tools and the money to get on a perpetual DIY spree for buying a product that fails you. A ridiculously small percentage of people have these resources.
Agree absolutely. No need to hold a spanner if one has resources to get it done. Also DIY isn't everyone's piece of cake ( Sorry for the attitude ).

But we should not be selective with the Thar.People have even sold newly bought & touted 8 lakh worth Gypsies, why only thar ? 4x4 is a messy area it does not suit everyone while handling life's priorities. DIY is a step further, doing it for some 25+ years may make you look like a Jobless Junk .

On a lighter note ;- I have recently acquired a 600 sq feet garage ( closed ) near FC road Pune to systematically do all the DIY I desired to do for years. I have also acquired an acre of parking lot near Lonavla, so I could buy & store MM 550s or Stalions for future activities.(awaiting mstc licence)

Wish me Luck Sir ! Thar CRDe is just a 10% of my desired activity.

Sudarshan

PS haven't read rest of your post, would be interesting to, but time restricts
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Old 27th May 2013, 18:17   #219
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Quote:
Originally Posted by R32_GTR View Post
...
With all due respect DB - Are you suggesting that it is the consumers who are to be blamed for not accepting a sub-par product which M&M has made available to the Indian consumers? Please correct me if I'm reading it all wrong below.

In those days - for people, vehicles were vehicles
Today - for people, vehicles are projects

...
I think you did not get what DB was trying to say. His "In those days" & "Today" comments are explaining the working of Mahindra and not reflecting the behaviour of the customers.

DB sir, perhaps you can write a book along the lines of "On a clear day you can see General Motors"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
I can see you are blessed by the almighty , but I am not as lucky one .

The addiction of the Jeep ( 4x4 ) is so deep rooted that its like having a 'No choice ' & ' No return ' situation . We the Jeep addicted have to make do with what ever is offered ( thrown ) to us .

May god keep people away from this curse called Jeep thing

Sudarshan
It is precisely for this reason, that despite of family pressure, I still have not bitten the bullet. I am still waiting for a better Thar. Many people here had the big issue of convincing the family to buy the Thar. For me after I got them hooked to the Thar (and a week long use of Thar DI in Kerala helped that), I have to constantly find reasons to explain why I am still staying away.

Last edited by pjbiju : 27th May 2013 at 18:29.
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Old 28th May 2013, 10:56   #220
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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DB SIr, is it possible to install an AC compressor in the current set up of the XDP3 engine? What needs to be done, where will the AC pulley be installed. Will an evaporator installed up front hamper the radiator air flow significantly? Please advice.
Dear Shahidji - what a simple question Sir! Use the complete system from the Armada Grand. Front and engine compartment geometry including dash panel orientation is same as MM540 XD3 4000 rpm engine without oil cooler for domestic application. As a product engineer, I understand and talk in this language only. Complete information is conveyed. Now go ahead and implement it, then your vehicle will work. If you don't implement like this, your vehicle will not work, so don't even try. Parts must be as per ECN and drawings. .

Dear pjbiju - thank you for clarifying to R32_GTR.

Dear R32_GTR - sadly, in large organizations, the well being of the product is an incidental activity, not necessarily a primary need! This comment is brutally direct but it is also absolutely true! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 28th May 2013, 12:10   #221
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
...
Dear R32_GTR - sadly, in large organizations, the well being of the product is an incidental activity, not necessarily a primary need! This comment is brutally direct but it is also absolutely true! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
How I wish some of those people who mattered had actually sat in the Thar and also had driven it both on the road and off the road for a few kilometers at least; had sat in the front seat and also in the rear instead of dropping by a chopper and taking a walk around it (at the most). Approving products based on presentations will not get the right product on the roads. The presentations only show you what they want to show you. So why even bother looking at them? This is like looking at a recipe and saying the dish is fantastic. Serve it to the people. For God's sake eat the dish first and then decide if it is worth serving to the public and at what cost.

Last edited by pjbiju : 28th May 2013 at 12:19.
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Old 28th May 2013, 12:34   #222
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
In those days - for people, vehicles were vehicles
Today - for people, vehicles are projects

Interesting comparisons, and loved the underlying humour. I have not driven the Thar, but have been keenly following the feedbacks coming along in various threads and the responses coming from the concerned who have worked on the project (I said project based on your first comparison ). Its really commendable that you take time out of your busy schedules to provide answers/clarifications.

Got a question though. Are these comparisons applicable for only for M&M, or do these hold true for other manufacturers/corporates as well? IMHO, blaming today’s world for the so-called issues, lack of finesse is a bit clichéd. Quite sure that there will be manufacturers who can say: In those days – We made good products. Today – We still make good products.
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Old 28th May 2013, 13:31   #223
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

My vehicle is an MM550 with XD3 P engine, ex army 2001 model. It is with an oil cooler. The engine is superbly reconditioned. Hitting 90-95 or even 100 kmph in my vehicle is no issue at all.

Did the Armada grand have the same engine ?

From what Sharat posted, and other experiences from various threads, installing an AC with the current XD3P engine seems to be a dangerous proposition which might ruin the fine engine. I am in two minds really.

XD3P failed, DI failed, Qualis engine, origins were unknown overheated, DI Turbo had mixed results.

Dont know how to proceed much. Should there be a thermostat or not ? Confusing stuff.

What I may do :

Upgrade the radiator to a Bolero's radiator - new
Increase the speed of the water pump ( advice right or wrong move please )
Install a new compressor, evaporator, blower, drier & associated kit.
No need to change the dashboard but use one of these old type under the fiat's dahboard boxes ( old National Panasonic types ) New of course.

Its a risk. If the engine overheats this entire contraption has to be discarded. It is a financial risk of about Rs. 50,000 odd to play with. If not careful the engine might be damaged and then it will cost another Rs. 100,000 to purchase, rebuild and install a DI turbo engine.

Needs strict evaluation.
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Old 28th May 2013, 15:32   #224
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by desertfox View Post
My vehicle is an MM550 with XD3 P engine, ex army 2001 model. It is with an oil cooler. The engine is superbly reconditioned. Hitting 90-95 or even 100 kmph in my vehicle is no issue at all.
Needs strict evaluation.
Dont install AC into a XD3 P MM550.Its just another way of killing it.

Enjoy the machine as is.There are 100 valid reasons for this set up failures, but only one reason for success.(If it works).

Last edited by Rajith : 28th May 2013 at 15:33.
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Old 28th May 2013, 16:21   #225
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Dont install AC into a XD3 P MM550.Its just another way of killing it.

Enjoy the machine as is.There are 100 valid reasons for this set up failures, but only one reason for success.(If it works).
I guess so seems to be a low probability proposition, but was not the Armada Grand equipped with an AC and the same engine and what about pre 2009 Bolero 4x4 versions ?
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