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Old 28th May 2013, 16:47   #226
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by desertfox View Post
I guess so seems to be a low probability proposition, but was not the Armada Grand equipped with an AC and the same engine and what about pre 2009 Bolero 4x4 versions ?
sir,

Your Logic is right and it should work theoretically .

ARMADA/BOLERO version came with well insulated cabins and different fuel pumb ratings for different versions like

Armada 2wd/4wd,Grand 2wd/4wd,Bolero GLX 2wd/4wd,LX and Sports depends up on PS,AC,4WD/2WD combinations.

All suits ok when its a new engine from factory.

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Old 28th May 2013, 16:48   #227
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My vehicle is an MM550 with XD3 P engine, ex army 2001 model. It is with an oil cooler. The engine is superbly reconditioned. Hitting 90-95 or even 100 kmph in my vehicle is no issue at all. Did the Armada grand have the same engine ?

From what Sharat posted, and other experiences from various threads, installing an AC with the current XD3P engine seems to be a dangerous proposition which might ruin the fine engine. I am in two minds really.

XD3P failed, DI failed, Qualis engine, origins were unknown overheated, DI Turbo had mixed results. Dont know how to proceed much. Should there be a thermostat or not ? Confusing stuff.

What I may do? Upgrade the radiator to a Bolero's radiator - new / Increase the speed of the water pump (advice right or wrong move please). Install a new compressor, evaporator, blower, drier & associated kit. No need to change the dashboard but use one of these old type under the fiat's dahboard boxes (old National Panasonic types) New of course.

Its a risk. If the engine overheats this entire contraption has to be discarded. It is a financial risk of about Rs. 50,000 odd to play with. If not careful the engine might be damaged and then it will cost another Rs. 100,000 to purchase, rebuild and install a DI turbo engine. Needs strict evaluation.
Dear Shahidji - decision is simple. Buy the Thar CRDe because at least you will get reliable AC with engineered cooling system. As Thar CRDe will come with IFS which you (and a few others) may be keen on not having (I really don't know your individual preference, I am presuming), you may like to consider changing it. Please be careful that the beam axle that you fit does not tear the sump and the propeller shaft meets Euler's theory of long columns (drawing interference is 43mm, axle goes inside sump in spike test). The cost and effort of doing this whole exercise may turn out as similar as trying to fit a non-engineering solution AC on the old generation XD3. If you don't do AC exactly as per the Armada Grand BOM (which I presume you don't have access to), you will lose reliability big time. Same thing will happen in this case also, because engineering information of "Non-IFS on NEF on Bolero platform" does not exist. In either case, its a huge chance you will take, so what difference will it make, isn't it? Your call, Sir! I await your comments. Armada Grand domestic Bill of Material (BOM) calls for XD3 engine suitable for 4000 rpm without oil cooler. Army MM540 BOM calls for XD3 with 4500 rpm with oil cooler. I have already mentioned it.

Dear all - please make careful note of my above comments. Without any doubt on anybody's capabilities, what a manufacturer can do in production, others cannot do, irrespective of what anybody tells you. Please be careful how you spend your hard earned money, "building your Jeeps"! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 28th May 2013, 17:46   #228
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear Shahidji - decision is simple. Buy the Thar CRDe because at least you will get reliable AC with engineered cooling system. As Thar CRDe will come with IFS which you (and a few others) may be keen on not having (I really don't know your individual preference, I am presuming), you may like to consider changing it. Please be careful that the beam axle that you fit does not tear the sump and the propeller shaft meets Euler's theory of long columns (drawing interference is 43mm, axle goes inside sump in spike test). The cost and effort of doing this whole exercise may turn out as similar as trying to fit a non-engineering solution AC on the old generation XD3. If you don't do AC exactly as per the Armada Grand BOM (which I presume you don't have access to), you will lose reliability big time. Same thing will happen in this case also, because engineering information of "Non-IFS on NEF on Bolero platform" does not exist. In either case, its a huge chance you will take, so what difference will it make, isn't it? Your call, Sir! I await your comments. Armada Grand domestic Bill of Material (BOM) calls for XD3 engine suitable for 4000 rpm without oil cooler. Army MM540 BOM calls for XD3 with 4500 rpm with oil cooler. I have already mentioned it.

Dear all - please make careful note of my above comments. Without any doubt on anybody's capabilities, what a manufacturer can do in production, others cannot do, irrespective of what anybody tells you. Please be careful how you spend your hard earned money, "building your Jeeps"! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
IMHO, this one post above hits the nail on the head. It completely clarifies why to, or why NOT to buy the Thar. Either ways, you'd still be building a Jeep.
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Old 29th May 2013, 08:35   #229
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Finally I found some time Prasad JEE (happy now) ?
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Originally Posted by R32_GTR View Post
Are you suggesting that it is the consumers who are to be blamed for not accepting a sub-par product which M&M has made available to the Indian consumers? Please correct me if I'm reading it all wrong below.
YES , for all those years we have been buying such things, its in our blood now. Its a long list, the firy Ventos , blowing Nanos , Clutchy Skodas , Braky-shaky swiftys. Ohhh its endless.

Quote:
In those days - for people, vehicles were vehicles
Today - for people, vehicles are projects


For the masses - vehicles are still vehicles - the product is being bought by the masses. It might sound like a lot but M&M needed to give a foolproof product to its consumers in the first place - Not a fixer upper! Its the product that is giving rise to the "project" - be it to improve it and/or to ruin it.
Prasad JEE do you think its happening first time in the history of M&M ? I mean all other products were just as fool proof as you desired ?

There is nothing special about Thar in this regard


Quote:
Access to information platforms (ipads/laptops and more importantly, the internet) has only made the "consumer" more informed than they used to be. Are you suggesting that the end consumer not research before buying a vehicle or just read the product brochure and buy the product??
In Reality the research is just limited with some figures from brochures & paid reviews by well hosted auto press.


Quote:
Is that so?? I wonder where all the "SIRS" "JI / JEE" and "GURU" connotations came up all of a sudden. The respect has always been there and will continue to be there.
Cool Prasad Sir , its not the person's fault to be called like that, its in the culture of the caller.



Quote:
I agree with you on this one and would like to quote another cliche here - "In a blind mans world, the one-eyed man is king". If only there were better options that the THAR CRDe could be compared to - Having said this, it does not mean that M&M justify the shortcomings/failures (mechanicals) of the Thar - Ohh wait, M&M isn't!
TRUTH, but again, is it happening first time with any mm product

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How is this the end consumers problem?? What does this have to do with a consumer wanting a complete product for which he's paying for? Its still being marketed and sold right?? If the product isn't the way it was supposed to be (100%), don't sell it!! Not many care about how a product moved from inception to realisation!
I differ here. When a Product is launched, the statement is made. Its in open market & customers are as free (not to buy), just as they dont care about its moving from inception to reality.

The company has 'done' its Job, now its for the customer to decide.

Quote:
Again - Do you really expect every consumer (or most of the masses that are buying the Thar) to know the "intricate" workings of the product like you do?
This was not a part of M&M ad campaign. These details were shared as a courtesy by DB Sir with 'us' . Yes courtesy, I dont remember any GM of a R&D talking with the 'masses' so straight. Is there anyone like him who would even take notice of what you are trying to say ? Expecting accountability from him is bit too much. Some one has given a hand, dont pull it too much.


Quote:
I hope that this post is seen in good light - I'm just a potential consumer at this stage and threads like these just don't make me want to be a potential M&M consumer.
M&M is least bothered about the sales figure of 'this' product. They are regularly making full happy meals thrice a day in other segments, & till its going on, even the existence of Thar does not matter. IMHO

Sudarshan

P S ; I have heard about your wonderfully restored Jonga, Please start a Thread & share details. Would be nice to know the intricacies of the wonderful Nissan product.

Last edited by Sudarshan : 29th May 2013 at 08:50.
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Old 29th May 2013, 10:09   #230
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I am really amazed when someone in this age passes sub-standard product like Thar from a company like Mahindra as acceptable and reasoning to buy it as a part of our chalta hai culture.

This has to STOP somewhere, true that we Indians haven't cared about a hoot for Quality till now and that is the only reason why we have been taken for granted and finally we accept that this is a part of our culture and nothing can be done about it.

Why can't a company like Mahindra get their product right first time rather than leaving niggling issues to us customers, as they too think that these customers will live with these issues as it it in their blood and culture. Oh come on give me a break from this apathy that has been plaguing us for long. If I as a customer expect my brand new vehicle to function properly in atleast its warranty period is that asking for too much. It is not about free service or other gimmicks it is about the vehicle living upto the basic standards. If customers dont set the standards who will? A customer is the end user and hence he should be entitled to expect some basic standards for what he is paying for. These excuses like "Mahindra JEEP is for DIY'ers", "You should have Mahindra JEEP in your blood", "You have to learn to live with a Mahindra JEEP" sounds a bit to cliched and dont hold water in today's lean manufacturing and quality adherence. Blaming our culture is a very easy thing changing the culture is a different ball game altogether and I salute those who take up the courage to tell others about the problems and trauma they have faced with a sub-standard product like Mahindra Thar instead of overlooking its poor quality and haggling about "It's a Jeep live with it or leave it".

And finally the irony here is Mahindra is the only manufacturer making/destroying the Jeep in India so they think no matter what, we will always have our cash registers ringing, customer be damned! we as customers are buying this theory too, but for how long...

Last edited by navin_v8 : 29th May 2013 at 10:17. Reason: spelling mistake
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Old 29th May 2013, 10:40   #231
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Dhabhar Bhai it wont serve my purpose.
Only feasible solution is to bear the high cost of operating a Bolero and MM 550 in tandem, double the fuel cost and manpower cost of 2 additional personnel, driver / helper on my trips. Actually it will be a cheaper solution.

If the DI Thar was BS IV it could be an option to buy a new Jeep. However it is impossible for me to get hold of someone in Aligarh or SOnipat and buy a DI in his name. Why do it ? More trouble. Trust our authorities, anyone can buy a BS III vehicle in Patna or Aligarh or Allahabad and keep it in Delhi for the next 15 years, how will it have a positive impact on pollution level ? Do these kind of vehicles not ply on Delhi roads ? Even worse than these operate here, specially Gurgaon where Gios and god knows what makes of three wheelers emmit black soot.

I will upgrade the MM550, it is a beautiful vehicle, a new top, custom made to my specifications where I can open it from the centre in a minute, the sides roll up.

The MM 550 has a brilliant engine, Bosch recaliberated fuel pump, new paint, brand new JK Sandgripper tyres, perfectly working gear box and transfer case rehauled by an expert.

All it needs it a few rubber bush chages, perhaps the front shocker bushes and a small adjustment to the steering which has some small play, no major hassles here.

I have used 100 W Philips Holland bulbs in it with original wiring and relays of Hitachi Japan, I had brought some wires from Dubai.

Below the floor plate there is a concealed stowage compartment as well, very secret so your tool box or a few items stored will be safe. ( 3 ft x 1.5 ft x 1.5 ft ).

SO the best arrangement remains, ride the Bolero or Drive the Bolero till the point where 4x4 country starts and then take over my beautiful MM550.

After so much discussion about Jeeps I felt like driving it last night. Took the top off, drove it filled it up with Diesel, went to a paan shop had a 7 Up and Paan, dressed in a White Kurta Pajama, now the problem is the Paan shop owner thinks I am a goon and refuses to take money from me! Bhaiya Kaisi baat karte hain, kyon sharminda karte hain, so Jeeps have a fringe benefit in North India I guess.

Last edited by desertfox : 29th May 2013 at 10:41.
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Old 29th May 2013, 10:51   #232
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Originally Posted by navin_v8 View Post

This has to STOP somewhere, true that we Indians haven't cared about a hoot for Quality till now and that is the only reason why we have been taken for granted and finally we accept that this is a part of our culture and nothing can be done about it.
Yes, please dont hurt yourself by banging your head on the wall

Quote:
Why can't a company like Mahindra get their product right first time rather than leaving niggling issues to us customers, as they too think that these customers will live with these issues as it it in their blood and culture. Oh come on give me a break from this apathy that has been plaguing us for long. If I as a customer expect my brand new vehicle to function properly in atleast its warranty period is that asking for too much. It is not about free service or other gimmicks it is about the vehicle living upto the basic standards.===
For All, let me ask a very basic question, Who is this guy Customer ? I do some kind of businesses daily (yes, though I am forced to do) . The definition of customer in my business/s is generally " the person who can make the difference to your earnings, not essentially through his buying power "

Do we in any way stand as customers (potentially may be) in the eyes of M&M to take notice of anything we say ?

As long as we do not stand as customers the 'apathy ' will continue

Sudarshan
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Old 29th May 2013, 11:12   #233
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Dhabhar Bhai it wont serve my purpose.
Dear Shahidji - the above line quoted in your post clearly indicates that you have no intention of converting Thar CRDe IFS to non IFS because it will not serve your purpose. That's it, thank you Sir!

Dear all - Topic of Thar CRDe having IFS is now comprehensively closed.

Dear Sudarshan - your comment - "as long as we do not stand as customers, the 'apathy' will continue" - may I take the liberty to provide a slight addition here - "as long as the management is in denial mode and is therefore hell bent on recognizing and rewarding people who do not understand the difference between the front of the vehicle and the back of the vehicle (and who are allowed to brazenly declare so), the 'apathy' will continue".

"Hum angrezon ke zamaane ke jailor hain, hum nahin sudhrenge"!

.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

Last edited by DHABHAR.BEHRAM : 29th May 2013 at 11:14. Reason: add info
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Old 29th May 2013, 11:31   #234
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

No Dhabahr Bhai,

I saw the thread and your comments as well in the thread where an electronics engineer from Punjab attempted IFS conversion to rigid axle.

This whole business of playing around with steering geometry, altering axle position, additional steering rods diametrically opposing each other is very unnerving indeed.

I am a working class person who cannot spare two days a week at a Jeep mechanics place, on Saturday I prefer giving time to Skeet shooting or merely off road and pleasure trips on a weekend.

On a similar note, my observation is that all attempts to istall AC in XDP 3, Di, DI Turbo or even Toyota / Nissan / Isuzu engines are largely failures. I will cross check with the Bhopal guys as well when I am there next but I am not optimistic at all on this one.

I had a similar set up AC installed in a Gypsy 1.3 and the engine overheating problem was severe.

I am perfectly OK with taking a convoy of two vehicles, bear the extra diesel and manpower costs. It is a cheaper alternative in the short, medium and long term, and the most comfortable under the given circumstances.

I have a VLX MHawk top of the line 4WD Scorpio but not the heart to take it off road. Even if I buy another Landcruiser I am not going to take it off road in India, deflating and driving on sand in the desert is a different thing from driving on rocks and hard mud canyons.

Playing around with OE suspension settings and steering geometry is a dangerous game and I have first hand experience.

Installation of lift kit, Old Man Emu Nitro Shockers and Coil springs was done by Al Futtaim Motors, the Toyota dealers and covered under warranty, but what a rut it created on my LWB Prado 90, the best of service engineers, including the Middle East National Servcice Manager, four of them brainstorming together and skill contest winner mechanics could not solve it. Frequently breaking Nitro shockers, steering geometry out, longer drive shaft travel, frequent tears in stablizer bar bush sets. No Sir, I have had my share of fun and learnt my lessons the hard way.

If you have money to buy a Banana buy a banana , dont expect apples for money just right for bananas.

Inspite of a semi functional Air Conditioner, fairly good CRDe engine, the Thar because of its IFS set up does not suit me. It is the Thar which is a failure. Not IFS. My Landcruisers, V8 pr LWB or SWB Prado all had IFS, but it was made as King of the Road and King Offraod.

In Thar IFS is not to blame alone. It is not a serious off road vehicle and was never designed to be. Neither is the 4WD Scorpio with a similar set up.

So the Thar does not meet my purpose and I should not buy it.

Last edited by desertfox : 29th May 2013 at 11:45.
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Old 29th May 2013, 16:04   #235
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by navin_v8 View Post
I am really amazed when someone in this age passes sub-standard product like Thar from a company like Mahindra as acceptable and reasoning to buy it as a part of our chalta hai culture.

This has to STOP somewhere, .......

..........
Inspite of all the discussions in the Forum, Thar is selling in reasonably good numbers. All of us are free to avoid this product.

The reason Thar sells is that at its price point it is the only new vehicle offering. You may rave and rant about Landcrisers, Jeeps and other 4x4, but all of them start at 3 times or more of the Thar price, some thing that most of us could not bear. So buyers of Thar, bear with its short comings and modify it to their needs. A good design and manufacturing costs money, so an Indian Jeep Rubicon will be as expensive as the US version. At least with Thar I do not have to build a Jeep, I get it new from the show room

Thar attracts the sort of buyer who will bear with its niggles and devote time to getting rid of them. For others there is the "Alto" and "Swift family". These models sell more in a day than Thar in the whole year. Make Thar at that level of fit, finish and reliability at the current price and see it fly off the shelf. After all the Bolero sells like hot cakes, and Thar is based on it.
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Old 29th May 2013, 16:41   #236
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Read my post carefully Thar is selling in numbers because unfortunately Mahindra is the only manufacturer milking the legendary JEEP's image in India and selling it as a so called Life Style Vehicle to gullible customers. What do you expect? will every customer have enough time on his hand to put up with the niggling issues that the THAR has to offer and compromise its shortcomings by modifying a brand new vehicle that's just out of the showroom. What is there not to rave about the Landcruisers and Chrysler's Jeep(original JEEP)? they are world class vehicles with pedigrees that Mahindra products can only dream about. A good design ofcourse costs money but not at the cost of the customer's loss. I just checked out the retail price of a JEEP in USA, it costs apprx 25,000 USD(base model) convert that to INR (at Rs.55 Per US dollar) and it comes to 13,75,000. THAR sells here for 8 odd lakhs. You are saying that these vehicles will cost 3 times that of THAR that is thanks to Government of India's ridiculous import tax duty. Now imagine if Chrysler's JEEP sets it shop in India by localizing parts like Harley Davidson did, initially they will be able to sell it at a higher price point but eventually when they fully localize it what will happen to THAR. It will scare the s**t out of Mahindra's living daylights. That is why I said customers have no option other than Mahindra but for How Long?

Last edited by navin_v8 : 29th May 2013 at 16:42.
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Old 29th May 2013, 16:49   #237
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Buy the Thar CRDe because at least you will get reliable AC with engineered cooling system.

Dear all - please make careful note of my above comments. Without any doubt on anybody's capabilities, what a manufacturer can do in production, others cannot do, irrespective of what anybody tells you. Please be careful how you spend your hard earned money, "building your Jeeps"! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
Really? The Thar's A/C system is an engineered system? A jugaad setup if done at Mahindra still remains a jugaad setup.

How can mounting of the A/C compressor on a sliding bracket be called an engineered solution? A compressor that is subject to turning on and off under load mounted on what was essentially the belt tensioner is an engineered solution? Please.

A jugaad is a jugaad is a jugaad. No matter how much technical jargon you throw around it.

Cheers.
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Old 29th May 2013, 17:19   #238
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There are many 4x4 vehicles with IFS. But Thar is a 4x4 with unfunctional IFS offroad in 4x4 mode.

This is the prime reason why it is not a proper off road vehicle, suitable for serious applications in off road terrain.

It is a lifestyle vehicle for a particular set of customers who are not off roaders. It is good that they are lapping up plenty of Thars.

Once the Fiat - Chrysler introduced, Diesel Engine Jeep Wrangler hits Indian markets for about Rs. 11 - 13 Lakhs, then lets see how many Thars are sold.
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Old 29th May 2013, 18:10   #239
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...
Once the Fiat - Chrysler introduced, Diesel Engine Jeep Wrangler hits Indian markets for about Rs. 11 - 13 Lakhs, then lets see how many Thars are sold.
Auto magazines have been indicating that the Jeep Wrangler and Cherokee will be imported with prices for the basic Wrangler anywhere between 18 to 22 lakhs. If that is so, the massess will still have only the Thar as a "Jeep" option. Because just like the Thar, for all practical purposes, the soft top Jeep Wrangler cannot be the only car in most cases. Even among those who can afford them, only a handful might ever take it off-roading.

But I fervently wish that the magazines be wrong and you be proved right. If you are, then the top honchos at Mahindra will only be too glad to kill the Thar.

All other competetion, when they eventually come, will not have the "Jeep" look for those who are obsessed with that look (like me), no matter how capable they are. So we are back to square one - watching and waiting.

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Old 29th May 2013, 18:10   #240
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

What is coming.

Jeep Wrangler - JK Manual transmission.

5 Speed Diesel Engine - A - 428 VM Motori - Italy ( Fiat )
4 Cylinder in line, DOHC 2800 cc
Power output - 200 PS ( 197 KW ) about 190 bhp
410 N-m Torque

Euro V / Bharat V emission compliance.

4x4 , low transfer case.

Now the best of Jaisalmer dunes can be tamed !

I want to be among the first to buy it.
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