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Old 7th May 2013, 14:52   #16
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by vivekjayasheel View Post
At the risk of going off-topic, a stock Jeep Wrangler will run circles around ANYTHING sold in India and 90% of all 4x4s sold worldwide. And yes i truly believe it WILL serve desertfox's purpose. LOL.
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I think only the LWB 4-door version will come with engine options. The unstoppable SWB will only come with the 3.5 V6 petrol and a 6-speed manual gearbox. Or so I've heard.
..
If a SWB comes with a 3.5 L petrol engine its good. This is the JK edition, and the power output is close to 200 BJP with a fuel efficiency of about 7 kmpl. With Petrol and Diesel prices going to be the same bin the next few months, the choice of fuel will hardly matter.

Lets see what Wrangler is launched here. The TJ / YJ or JK are extremery capable legendary off roaders. In India what is launched with a diesel engine needs to be seen, I have no idea yet what is coming.
I am sorry for being completely clueless. But since we are comparing the Thar with the Jeep Wrangler, any idea what would be the price-point the Wrangler would be on?

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I had thought that I can save on double the fuel and hassle if a Thar replaces the two, it cannot.
IMHO, even with double the fuel cost plus hassle, the Thar+Bolero option would still be more economically viable than the Wrangler - if the objective is serious offroading.

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But compared to the Thar it will be as different as chalk and cheese. A real stallion not a Mule that Thar is with MM550 body, Bolero Dashboard, Scorpio front suspension, altered crawl ratio, and reduced stroke CRD engine .
The Wrangler is awesome no doubt. But seriously, how can you even compare them. Its like saying a Ferrari is better than a Jaguar. Duh. We all know that.

Please go ahead and buy the Wrangler when it gets launched and invite me for an OTR in the passenger seat. I will do the same if I buy it before you
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Old 7th May 2013, 15:00   #17
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

The DI Thar is actually OK but again a major drawback is a flawed final crawl ratio. TO bulid a good offroader out of it requires a lot of time and money to get it to MM550 level. There is a thread here where a BHP member from the south has spent a good 5 lakhs on upgrading it.

In Delhi NCR you cant get it registered it is a BS - III grade emission class vehicle. Therefore as a rule the local dealerships dont stock it. How in the world does one get a Rohtak or Aligarh or Sonipat address to get it registered there ? Impracticality.

The NDMS tyres are not so good and of poor quality, not MRF as OE, a tyre upgrade is required it will be able to take a Bolero class tyre 215/75/R15 or R16 as the rim may be I think it has a 16 inch rim, Bridgestone Dueler AT will sit fine on it.

With little options around what about the Delhi or Mumbai police force ? Thar is a replacement for phased out Gypsies ( read badly driven, maintained and destroyed ) with the police force of Bihar, Rajasthan and many other places, soon the BS - IV will become applicable here too. Then what happens a BS-IV version of Thar DI ? Will the police forces of Metro cities in India be allowed to register BS-III Thar DI ?

Aside - I simply loved your post lugnut, couldnot stop laughing out loud.

How to start on Pedder road slope - Do these dusters have handbrakes ? In the Thar I am sure it never works, even the regular brakes need a recall and upgrade.

Optimal decal placement - This topic may start a war, these days studs and rings are optimally placed in a number of places from eyebrows, lips, tongues to wherever, decals and stickers ! Imagine the options.

How to cross an 8 inch puddle - Where will the city dweller types ever find one ? They dont go near 2 inch puddles in their Gucci shoes. The challenge is how to cross an 8 inch puddle where the underfender and mudflap comes out clean without a drop of dirty murky water.

Ideal music system - Obviously the loudest, there is even one called Explode, soon there will be other explosive names, and higher wattage.

Last edited by desertfox : 7th May 2013 at 15:13.
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Old 7th May 2013, 15:08   #18
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by desertfox View Post
1. The AC cooling in this Soft Top Thar was deplorable. 2. The rigid plastic rear mud flap tore off while going over a small bush shrub. 3. The bumper design is such that a pintle hook cannot be fixed to its rear bumper, so much of an offroader. In an MM550 it can be, in fact there is. 4. The sidesteps are very low and they were uprooted in the sand track section itself. What are these for in a 4x4 jeep ? They dont belong here.
Dear Desertfox - I have been silently following this thread. I have quoted some lines from your post number 1 where I think I must reply or rather clarify. I have put numbers against each issue.

1. I had a hard time convincing people that Thar CRDe actually needs an AC, otherwise customers won't buy. Believe you me, it was a hell of a job convincing people that soft top can actually have AC. It was not funny! Oh come on! .
2. No serious off-roader (including both of us) will keep such parts during actual off-roading. The details or even the existence of this part will not be known to many in the company, you think people actually tested whether mud flaps tore off? Oh come on!
3. Pintle hook mounting cross member is taken straight off the army MM550. Part number is also same. Only CJ/CL340 and CJ/CL500D with the original "C" section chassis had the original "K" member to mount the pintle hook. Please recheck. As soon as the tank comes underfloor, the "K" member goes! And, by the way, you think people actually know what is a "K" member? Oh come on!
4. Same as 2. "XYZ" will not accept catalytic converter being seen, CMVR won't accept car without catalytic converter, people who have never seen anything offroad say that "its difficult to get in, Behram you must provide footstep, you know", what is the platform head supposed to do? LOL!

.

Inspite of everything, we ensured that this vehicle saw light of day and guys like Manveet (thanks dude!) + many others buying them every month are enjoying it. I also enjoyed it immensely, in fact I enjoyed the "real Thar" as all of you know!

However, I respect your opinion, you are entitled to it, finally, to each his own! If you don't buy it, you'll miss doing many things which an MM540 will never be able to do!

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

Last edited by DHABHAR.BEHRAM : 7th May 2013 at 15:11. Reason: add info
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Old 7th May 2013, 15:24   #19
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Dont blame you Behram Bhai, you worked very hard at it I know, took time off from your liesure as well to drive it in off road events, let people have a look at it, let them drive it. I can understand your constraints and frustations and also appreciate all the help you have been giving to people on niggling umpteen problems that are cropping up.

Fortunately such things did not crop up in another crude Mahindra Car the Bolero that I own.

Why so much in the Thar ? Because every Thar owner is an enthusiast. Most Bolero owners are not on team BHP, most Thar owners are.

Where can i buy about 7 metres of the Thar canopy material for my MM550 top ? Will the manufacturer in Nasik give me some ? What if I send someone there to his factory with the cash ? Can I have his address and contact details please ?
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Old 7th May 2013, 19:35   #20
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by desertfox View Post

Why so much in the Thar ? Because every Thar owner is an enthusiast. Most Bolero owners are not on team BHP, most Thar owners are.
Because M&M did not apply all the quality process for THAR as they follow for other breeds.
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Old 7th May 2013, 19:57   #21
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Because M&M did not apply all the quality process for THAR as they follow for other breeds.
What quality process? it does not exist much for them. All the 'breeds' have similiar issues(if not less or more) irrespective of running for years on the road.

If they had a worthy quality process, why would M&M take ~8-10 years to stabilize(?) a selling platform model like Scorpio? I am saying this after owning two generation Scorpios!
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Old 7th May 2013, 23:27   #22
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

The Mahindra Thar does have its issues but atleast thats a start from Mahindra to open up a new untapped segment. For starters its great to have such a refined, powerful and smooth engine but thats pretty much where I would stop with the Thar. The brakes are sufficient but emergency braking at 110+ with such big tyres should do some justice atleast. Then comes the AC which is pretty ok for a softtop but the vent controls make no sense. The rattling after its price tag is just the icing in the cake. Now about the Thar as an offroader is a serious no no.

It takes a little time to understand the capabilities and the power delivery of the Thar in offroad conditions. Once you get the hang of it it can be real fun on the sand and slush stages but come rocks and the Thar is off its ground. Rewind to OTR in Bengaluru 2013, the Thars opted for the bypass section on the rock stages. The clutch hose and the rear shackles often bottomout in the Thar while offroading. Add this to dealing with Mahindra service centers for repair, cost and assistance in offroad scenarios its better to keep the Thar on road. The clatter, fumes, oil leaks and sweat in a mm540 delivers that piece of mind any day offroad.

Finally Mahindra has always had that knack of using its customers for R&D over the years and consistently improved their products. The next Thar will hopefully have rectified most of its shortcomings but for now your spot on desertfox.
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Old 8th May 2013, 09:39   #23
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I was in the market for a 4x4 in Oct 2012 and most discussions with friends, colleagues and acquaintances were largely on Thar and Duster. 99% had no clue about how a 4x4 is engaged and some had interesting questions like can any set of wheels be engaged depending on mood to suit FWD or RWD. Most people in advising capacity in my case were novices and a Thar looked smart, rugged with road presence (imposing) and the final clincher being Diesel.

Another set of friends (NIOC and Rallyists) were avid fans of CJs, MM540 and Classics including the GPW. While I did not seek counsel from this group but almost all discussions were serious, hot blooded and sometimes I feared for the safety of the 2 arguing parties.

My criteria was After Sales Service and Reliability so went in for a New Gypsy. Another rationale was Raid De Himalaya and Desert Storm (heavily modded and stock entrants) and the Gypsy performing well in harsh terrains, proven work horse for rally enthusiasts even after it stopped selling years ago and the beating it can take. My other car is a 2.4 Liter Grand Vitara and a family SX4 so this was not going to be one where creature comforts were required.

Back to my novice friends in the first paragraph above, I do enjoy the rants around Diesel Torque, Mahindra Great Escape wow pics and my usual retorts to amuse all like:
"Gypsy can be converted to LPG /CNG while Thar is Diesel so it has conversion issues"
"When I go to Ladakh Indian Army has Gypsy repair capability"
"Gypsy has MPFI now" lol

Most Thars that I do see are well maintained and driven nicely, so that market segment has my respect. A new launch with decent following and product refinement over years will tell a better story - hindsight is always 6/6.
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Old 8th May 2013, 10:44   #24
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Why is the Thar a head turner ?


Every human being has a spirit of adventure inside him. A Jeep reveals this a sort of born free attitude.

Nobody in India has seen more than a couple of shiny new spanking gleaming jeep, chances are they have seen none at all.

To the rural Indian a Jeep spells authority, the local thana or BDO or District Magistrate / superior officer.

To the urban dweller in this era of Marutis Hyundais and ford fiestas and Indicas Jeeps had dissapeared from the road for a long time. The last CJ3B derivative avtar CL340 was hardly sold apart to govt departments, MM550 had virtually ceased to exist. The few Jeeps the urban indian saw were mostly old depleted police jeeps.

So when a comaratively gleaming, spanking Thar passes by people do have a look and want to see what this is all about. A good Jeep, say a nice yellow Wrangler would turn heads anywhere in the world in a similar manner.
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Old 8th May 2013, 10:48   #25
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by star_aqua View Post
Because M&M did not apply all the quality process for THAR as they follow for other breeds.
Dear Star Aqua - quality processes are applied equally, it is the "basic mindset" about the product that has to change. Everything cannot be only major platforms and huge projects with larger than life budgets. There is talk of "Auto Passion", and when auto passion is demonstrated, you have to deal with all sorts of "things"!

This reminds me of the Terence Hill / Bud Spencer dialogue, used by Dharmendra also - "If you want to shoot, shoot. Don't talk"! .

The quality matrice of the first Thar prototype was "X", so everybody started beating drums (oh so convenient!). The team made a complete study of dress level condition (soft top v/s hard top, CMVR implications, standardization across platforms etc) and it was clearly shown that a realistic quality matrice score of Thar will be "Y" which will be certainly less than X. It clearly showed that the project operated at a particular level of delivery for which there was a target customer. That's it!

"Product Clarity" is in extremely short supply these days. If you in TeamBHP have it, please use it fully to your advantage! .

Dear Desertfox - thank you for your reply, I know that you know it. The time has come when we must do something about the situation that I have mentioned above. Unnecessary drum beating must be stopped. There are correct ways of climbing the corporate ladder, actually doing good work should be the first one on that list! I request you to start this very healthy discussion.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

Last edited by DHABHAR.BEHRAM : 8th May 2013 at 10:51. Reason: add info
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Old 8th May 2013, 10:59   #26
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Unnecessary drum beating must be stopped. There are correct ways of climbing the corporate ladder, actually doing good work should be the first one on that list!

Behram Dhabhar
On that note, was wondering a few things about the Thar. Doubt if will get truthful responses, but still:

1. When did the export version of Thar hit M&M product line?
2. How long did it take between launch of export Thar and Indian Thar?
2. Which team developed the export version of Thar?
3. How much is different from an export Thar and Indian Thar other than RHD?
4. What components of Indian Thar was difficult to push through management?

Actually, doing good work might not be enough. Professional ethics also might be very important.

Cheers.
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Old 8th May 2013, 11:06   #27
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Money and people are critical components. As I had mentioned earlier, a good M Tech. Automobile engineer / Mecahnical Engineering M Tech. guy working on drivetrain systems at Diamler Bosch in Detroit is paid US $ 200,000 to 250,000 a year.

Mr. Anand Mahindra wants research engineers at a salary of 10 Lakhs CTC per annum, naturally there will be a difference.
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Old 8th May 2013, 11:18   #28
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear Star Aqua - quality processes are applied equally, it is the "basic mindset" about the product that has to change. Everything cannot be only major platforms and huge projects with larger than life budgets. There is talk of "Auto Passion", and when auto passion is demonstrated, you have to deal with all sorts of "things"!

This reminds me of the Terence Hill / Bud Spencer dialogue, used by Dharmendra also - "If you want to shoot, shoot. Don't talk"! .


Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
My first post on the Thar ever since the original original inception thread. Did not even comment on IFS v/s Solid Axle (Sorry could not resist.)

The line

"If you want to shoot, shoot. Don't talk"!

Is actually not from the Bud Spencer and Terence Hill Classics but from the mother of all Westerns



"The Good The Bad And The Ugly"

And that to me is the story of the Thar...it comes with its fair share of all and it is upto the customer to decide if it becomes a cult or a passing fad.

Regarding the debate on MM550 v/s Thar, there is another dialog from the movie in which Tuco says:

"There are two kinds of spurs, my friend. Those that come in by the door, [crosses himself] those that come in by the window."

Each kind to their own choice of operation.

Completely Random Trivia:
Though these whole "spaghetti western" series with Bud Spencer and Terence Hill which had a great fan following in India in the seventies and eighties are about the West, not too many in America have heard about them, they were all produced in Italy. We once went around asking people in a bar in New York "Do you know about Bud Spencer and Terence Hill" ...but that is another story!

Last edited by genesis : 8th May 2013 at 11:25.
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Old 8th May 2013, 12:12   #29
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Manveet, I completely agree with you. What Mahindra has done with the Thar is to make a Jeep that can be the only car. It is something that someone who usually drives a sedan/hatch can switch over to without having to make too many sacrifices, at a somewhat reasonable price.

You also have to look at this from a manufacturer's view. As it is, the That doesn't sell in huge numbers. Imagine if it had been built to true off-road specs, it would be the car that 90% of current Thar buyers would look at before buying a sedan/SUV.

If you're the sort who is used to driving a hatch/sedan but has the habit of looking longingly at jeeps and sighing, then the Thar is for you. It's the jeep to buy if you can only have one automobile.

Sadly, I am not a jeeper, but I've always wanted to be. And I finally got a chance when I got a chance to drive my uncle's CJ500 for a while. While it was quite awesome at first, the scary handling and a sudden deluge of rain, not to mention the sheer roughness of the beast, threw me off Jeeps for a while. I realised that while Jeeps do have their appeal, there were some things that one comes to expect from automobiles that a true blue jeep simply can't offer.

For me, the Thar is the best compromise. It has proper high speed manners, acceptable ride, a refined engine, power steering, AC and is a better off roader than anything else in its price range that you can pay off in EMIs!

If you're the kind of guy who likes extreme off-roading, then there's no real option for you other than building your own. But then, that has always been the case, hasn't it? Building your own or buying one that's already been built is the only way.
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Old 8th May 2013, 12:15   #30
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by desertfox View Post
guy working on drivetrain systems at Diamler Bosch in Detroit is paid US $ 200,000 to 250,000 a year.

Mr. Anand Mahindra wants research engineers at a salary of 10 Lakhs CTC per annum, naturally there will be a difference.
Last time I checked, Detroit did not sell new Jeeps for $15,000 with close to 40% of that price accounting for taxes and duties.

You get what you pay for.
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