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Old 7th June 2013, 11:02   #301
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by rrsteer View Post
From the discussion here, I understand Thar may perform better on offroad trails, but not extraordinarily so. On all other fronts Scorpio LX just annihilates the Thar. So my question is why are people buying Thar and then investing so much money on hard top, better seats etc? Why don't they buy a Scorpio 4wd lx, which at the end may be as cheap or costly as the Thar? Is it just about the 'jeep' looks ( which I dont give a thought) or is the Thar significantly better in some way?
If you need a hard top and tourer, then the LWB Scorpio LX 4x4 is the least expensive option, and a lot of members have bought just that. The only down side of Scorpio is the electrical shift which can go down in water. That is relatively simple to rectify - just coat the shifters at the GB and wheel hubs with silicon sealant.

Thar is a SWB soft top vehicle with; as many claim; slightly weak brakes. The ex showroom prices of Thar and Scorpio LX 4x4 are
. Thar : 7,21,548/-
. Scorio LX 4x4 : 9,94,59/

Upgrading the Thar costs approximately
. 50K for brakes
. 50-100K for HT
. 50K for power windows, seats etc
. 50K for accessories

So you will be paying around 2.7L extra, which with current taxes translate any where between 3.2 and 3.7L extra. Hence the Thar works out to be the least expensive 4x4 diesel vehicle available here.
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Old 7th June 2013, 11:30   #302
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

I can see people here talking about passion for Jeep, looks of the Jeep, etc. but let's just remember one thing that the Mahidra Thar is not worthy to be called a Jeep or for that matter no Mahindra vehicle on the original Jeep platform is worthy of being called a Jeep. The real Jeep is the one which was made by Willys Overland co. and currently by the Chrysler Group. Mahindra has just been milking the endless design for these many years and has been leveraging on its gullible customers.

I would like to see how many people would be passionate enough to buy a Thar when Fiat Group launches the original JEEP here. Ofcourse most of the potential customers would frown at the higher pricing of the original JEEP, but remember it's not a Mahindra. I would also like to see the same people who talk about passion whether they would buy the original JEEP. Because if your are passionate about the JEEP money does not matter. Again Mahindra Thar is not a JEEP it is a Mahindra Thar that's it and has all the traits of an assembling company which has been doing it since its inception which has not learnt anything apart from assembling leave apart the Q of Quality.
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Old 7th June 2013, 11:43   #303
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by anda60213 View Post
a) I never claimed myself to be an authority on Thar or Jeeps. I in fact openly admit my ignorance about these vehicles.
I never said you were an authority on Thar or Jeeps. But you surely claim to be an authority on the merits or demerits of the Thar. Subtle difference.

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Originally Posted by anda60213 View Post
b) I never said I was considering "buying" a Ford ecosport. My post mentioned that lifestyle needs will be served equally well by the ecosport and along with that I mentioned a few other vehicles in comparison.
This is where your ignorance of the Thar/ Jeep is evident (and you have admitted to it). The Thar/Jeep do NOT fulfill the same SAME lifestyle needs. That's exactly where your definition of lifestyle differs from everyone else posting on this thread - irrespective whether he is a Thar lover or hater. No wonder your expectations were not met and you are disgruntled.

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Originally Posted by anda60213 View Post

Everyone on this forum agrees on one thing without doubt:
1) Thar as it is made and sold is not worth the price being charged
2) MM vehicles have quality defects and one needs to learn to live with them and accept it as part of the game (compromise).

....

Oh come one now. Enough people have mentioned about the quality defects and compromises they needed to make to enjoy the vehicle. So I guess there are two kinds of suckers - a) Those who compromised to live and manage these issues and b) those who didn't.
You are right. Those who won and those who lost.

Compromising is not such a bad thing. Some people call it seeing the forest for the trees. Forget being a Jeeper or not, every married man would understand this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
[u][b]
Dear Anil - I saw your passion for the Jeep when we met so I am sad that your passion did not get realized. In order to filfill your passion, you had fitted absolutely ridiculous size and incorrect application tires, that too on 15 inch wheels, which had spoilt the vehicle dynamics completely. As a lay person, you are not expected to know this but you got right royally taken! Then you came back to production wheels and tires for which I believe you had to pay again. On top of that, Caster was low on the LH side. Car will pull to the side which has the lower caster. I just told you to correct Caster at a place who understands Caster and is willing to correct it, come back to production wheels, which you did and your car did not pull to the left. It was so simple and it cost you 500 rupees but as a lay person you are expected to get totally cheesed off, so I empathize with you. Further, the vehicle went dead on you because of the following reasons:

1. The battery cable terminal at the starter motor was loose.
2. Some bolts fell on your head.
Sirjee,

I don't remember Anil talking about his incorrect tire upgrade on the forum, which seems to be the cause of one of the major problems.

And about the battery cable, he could have got it tightened at a local mechanic for 50 Rs. Heck, some nice guy would have done it for free.

And a few bolts fell on his head. Lol.

Thats it!!??. And he decided to sell the Thar and is going on and on about it on this forum about the Thar being a Non-functional car.

Keeping the above info in mind, I now find the below quoted posts downright amusing ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by anda60213 View Post
But what happened to all that? I had to throw away this "passion" because the vehicle was "non-functional". I can't enjoy the passion if the vehicle does not function.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anda60213 View Post
... But like I have mentioned in my previous post somewhere - It will still look beautiful even if it is completely stalled and non functional. That is no use to me (or anyone else for that matter), is it?
Now for these posts of yours ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by anda60213 View Post
Also, it is quite evident to anyone on this forum that as far as Thar is concerned - There is no greater expert than BD. For the tiniest to the most crucial - BD is the advisor. So, again, I am not far off the mark by saying that if you want to make the vehicle on road and off road worthy - you need to either be BD or have him by your side.
Untrue. Disrespectful. And Rude.

He may be an expert on the production Thar, and may choose to help out some "suckers" along the way. But whether you decide to go with his advice or not is your decision. We on TBHP value his opinions, sometimes we accept them and many-times we do not. Look around the forum, you will find many experts - they will give you correct advice when you seek it. BD is passionate about the Thar so he volunteers more information in more technical form than is sometimes required - and people like you mistake his kindness for weakness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anda60213 View Post
Both. Additionally, I am also angry about not being able to fulfill this passion. I just guess I need to wait till the Jeep comes out and then I have to be willing to pay a price upwards of 20 lacs. If I get the reliability that satisfies my definition of "reliability and quality" I am willing to pay that kind of price.
We will cross that river when we get there.

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Originally Posted by anda60213 View Post
Yup - That sums it up brilliantly. I hope that the next "sucker" reads this post and makes an informed decision. At least he won't be able to say "I didn't know about it" unless if he or she does not read these posts at all.
So you actually believe that all your posts on this thread are influencing people away from the Thar, think again. At best, it is just helping separate the wheat from the chaff - for the overall benefit of the Jeeping community.

Just remember, the same "suckers" are also reading the following thread ..

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ve...eep-story.html

Last edited by manveet : 7th June 2013 at 11:45.
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Old 7th June 2013, 11:44   #304
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Originally Posted by navin_v8 View Post
I can see people here talking about passion for Jeep, looks of the Jeep, etc. but let's just remember one thing that the Mahidra Thar is not worthy to be called a Jeep or for that matter no Mahindra vehicle on the original Jeep platform is worthy of being called a Jeep. The real Jeep is the one which was made by Willys Overland co. and currently by the Chrysler Group. Mahindra has just been milking the endless design for these many years and has been leveraging on its gullible customers.

I would like to see how many people would be passionate enough to buy a Thar when Fiat Group launches the original JEEP here. Ofcourse most of the potential customers would frown at the higher pricing of the original JEEP, but remember it's not a Mahindra. I would also like to see the same people who talk about passion whether they would buy the original JEEP. Because if your are passionate about the JEEP money does not matter. Again Mahindra Thar is not a JEEP it is a Mahindra Thar that's it and has all the traits of an assembling company which has been doing it since its inception which has not learnt anything apart from assembling leave apart the Q of Quality.
Yes, everyone is waiting for FIAT with its atrocious service levels and network (relevant for 4X4 touring), to turn up in India with a vehicle which, because its assembled in India or imported directly, will have huge spare parts supply problems. We are not even getting into training for Wrangler mechanics etc., pricing etc. There is almost zero chance of wrangler making even a tiny dent in the Thar market - they may have a slot against the GV, Xtrail market (which is so tiny that it doesn't matter to Mahindra)

The worst thing about FIAT is that they are suspicious of everything Indian. Their bad experience with PAL, made them doubt everything - I had a close view of this when the FIAT- TATA JV stuff was happening and my law firm was involved in that - they would doubt everything, and start jabbering in Italian. All JVs are built on some amount of trust. These guys take suspicion to a different level.

And what is a jeep - a brand name? Who gives two hoots about a sticker or piece of metal letterings. Jeep to most people in India is a rugged vehicle which carries people places - a jeep, as thought of for eternity in most of India, is a rugged people carrier - sometimes 4x4. Even trekkers, commanders, jongas were called jeeps. I believe that when someone made a jeepers club, it was a continuation of that same principle (knowingly or unknowningly) - every manufacturer's vehicles take part in those club activities - because to them jeeps were rugged vehicles able to take up the terrain.

Ed: My point being that Wrangler will not be the solution to any problems regarding 4x4 availability in India. The solution lies with only with manufacturers with real bases in India.

Last edited by manolin : 7th June 2013 at 11:48.
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Old 7th June 2013, 12:10   #305
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by manveet View Post
I never said you were an authority on Thar or Jeeps. But you surely claim to be an authority on the merits or demerits of the Thar. Subtle difference.
No I don't. I only am an expert at the problems I faced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manveet View Post
You are right. Those who won and those who lost.
Of course I lost - and I chose to do so because it was impossible to continue to compromise with all the issues I faced with the vehicle. Everyone chooses what is the level of compromise which is acceptable to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manveet View Post
I don't remember Anil talking about his incorrect tire upgrade on the forum, which seems to be the cause of one of the major problems.
Not correct. The dents in the vehicle existed even before I took delivery. The problem with the alignment existed as soon as I took the vehicle out of the showroom with stock tyres and stock rims.

Secondly, within the first week of ownership I met BD and when he advised - I got the tyres changed soon after getting the alignment fixed. By the way - as soon as the caster was fixed - the alignment issue was sorted out even with those tyres.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manveet View Post
And about the battery cable, he could have got it tightened at a local mechanic for 50 Rs. Heck, some nice guy would have done it for free.
Sure. I got a better deal. M&M workshop people fixed it up for free and hence I saved even those Rs 50.

But the point is - I was left stranded with a non functional vehicle. That is a fact.

What if it had happened at a place where I could not reach any workstation guy or even the local garagewalla? What then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by manveet View Post
And a few bolts fell on his head. Lol.
Few??? Let's quantify few - it was 1 bolt. But it was a bolt for a structural component of the vehicle. If 1 bolt can fall off from a structural component (after several other negligent assembly problems or maybe accident problems) - then what is the guarantee that others won't fall off? Even M&M people have refused to give me a written guarantee that this won't happen with any other part. Their only promise is that we will fix it in warranty free of cost.


Quote:
Originally Posted by manveet View Post
Thats it!!??. And he decided to sell the Thar and is going on and on about it on this forum about the Thar being a Non-functional car.
Yes. That's it!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by manveet View Post
Keeping the above info in mind, I now find the below quoted posts downright amusing ..
Sure. Have a laugh. I can join in the laughter with you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by manveet View Post
Untrue. Disrespectful. And Rude.

He may be an expert on the production Thar, and may choose to help out some "suckers" along the way. But whether you decide to go with his advice or not is your decision. We on TBHP value his opinions, sometimes we accept them and many-times we do not. Look around the forum, you will find many experts - they will give you correct advice when you seek it. BD is passionate about the Thar so he volunteers more information in more technical form than is sometimes required - and people like you mistake his kindness for weakness.
I wouldn't know. I met several of these "experts". I have already mentioned what advise these "experts" gave me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manveet View Post
So you actually believe that all your posts on this thread are influencing people away from the Thar, think again.
No I don't. But I sure do hope so. If enough people stop accepting these quality defects, then it will be a matter of time before M&M churns out truly wonderful and reliable products. And after that, it will be this very community which will benefit. And I may not even be a part of this community to receive this benefit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manveet View Post
At best, it is just helping separate the wheat from the chaff - for the overall benefit of the Jeeping community.

Just remember, the same "suckers" are also reading the following thread ..

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ve...eep-story.html
Sure. Let them read and let them make an informed decision unlike me.

Like I have said before. I have lost what I did. And I don't stand to gain any further. But I do believe that if enough people stop accepting that which is not right and enough people raise these issues - then change for the better is only a matter of time.

Last edited by anda60213 : 7th June 2013 at 12:15.
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Old 7th June 2013, 12:29   #306
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by anda60213 View Post
But I do believe that if enough people stop accepting that which is not right and enough people raise these issues - then change for the better is only a matter of time.
I seriously doubt this. When MM did not give it the required seriousness even during the design or manufacturing (tooling), they will be least bothered when people even stop buying the Thar. Then they can devote the entire resources for other more profitable ventures like the XUV or Scorpio

I doubt whether the Thar would have a separate dedicated assembly line - and the production head wouldn't like the assembly line disrupted due to some niggle discovered on a Thar

Thar sells around 500 nos per month from two plants. Of which 90% will be Thar DI bought by the traditional commercial jeep buyers - people who are already used to DIY in terms of fixing a jeep

The people who are making the noise are CRDI 4X4 buyers - and they are making the news at the wrong place, due to our ridiculous anti-consumer legal system. Forums like this do not matter to them, when the product itself is of least importance to them

Cry hoarse,if you want to - but M&M will not give two hoots to that!!

Last edited by mallumowgli : 7th June 2013 at 12:31.
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Old 7th June 2013, 12:37   #307
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Originally Posted by anda60213 View Post
No I don't. I only am an expert at the problems I faced.

..

Few??? Let's quantify few - it was 1 bolt. But it was a bolt for a structural component of the vehicle. If 1 bolt can fall off from a structural component (after several other negligent assembly problems or maybe accident problems) - then what is the guarantee that others won't fall off? Even M&M people have refused to give me a written guarantee that this won't happen with any other part. Their only promise is that we will fix it in warranty free of cost.
I am NOT an expert on the Thar. But since you are an expert on the "problems you faced", what "structural component" did this bolt belong to? AFAIK there are no structural components that high up in the Thar.

In fact, just to resolve that "issue" of lack of structural rigidity with the Thar (leading to rattle and body-shear in cornering), people are installing roll-bars and then connecting them to the B-pillar.

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Originally Posted by anda60213 View Post

Not correct. The dents in the vehicle existed even before I took delivery. The problem with the alignment existed as soon as I took the vehicle out of the showroom with stock tyres and stock rims.

Secondly, within the first week of ownership I met BD and when he advised - I got the tyres changed soon after getting the alignment fixed. By the way - as soon as the caster was fixed - the alignment issue was sorted out even with those tyres.
Lets not talk about the dents. If there was an unusual dent - please put up pictures. There are dents and then there are dings. If the vehicle had dents, you should NOT have taken delivery. Period.

And do clarify with timelines, WHEN you got a tire upgrade done - was it within the first week of ownership? Was it before or after meeting with BD? What size and brand did you go for? And on whose advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by anda60213 View Post
But the point is - I was left stranded with a non functional vehicle. That is a fact.

What if it had happened at a place where I could not reach any workstation guy or even the local garagewalla? What then?
This is something every car owner JUST knows - Car not starting, lights not working at all, - battery cable is the first culprit! Its like saying if you had a puncture in a remote place - what to do? Boss, you are expected to know how to change a tire.

Still, its OK you could not figure it out - but you could pop open the bonnet, kind of tricky on the Thar, but still manageable - look around and identify the loose battery cable.

Alternately, you could make a few phone-calls and a fellow TBHP'ian would help you out. Or just phone the Mahindra Service guy - they would give you some quick advice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anda60213 View Post
I wouldn't know. I met several of these "experts". I have already mentioned what advise these "experts" gave me.
Are these experts on TBhp? Please give names. Everybody who calls himself or herself an expert, or whom you think is an expert - does not qualify to be called an expert.

Last edited by manveet : 7th June 2013 at 12:45.
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Old 7th June 2013, 12:55   #308
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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post

1. The battery cable terminal at the starter motor was loose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by manveet View Post

This is something every car owner JUST knows - Car not starting, lights not working at all, - battery cable is the first culprit! Its like saying if you had a puncture in a remote place - what to do? Boss, you are expected to know how to change a tire.

Still, its OK you could not figure it out - but you could pop open the bonnet, kind of tricky on the Thar, but still manageable - look around and identify the loose battery cable.

Alternately, you could make a few phone-calls and a fellow TBHP'ian would help you out. Or just phone the Mahindra Service guy - they would give you some quick advice.
I see you are on a roll to prove a point. anda60213 had explained himself quite well in the previous post, but you are still going on and on. What are you trying to say?

BTW, please slow down and check the issues again. If you feel battery cable to the starter is an easy fix, you might be mistaken.

Cheers.
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Old 7th June 2013, 12:58   #309
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by manveet View Post
..... what "structural component" did this bolt belong to? AFAIK there are no structural components that high up in the Thar
.
...Lets not talk about the dents.

This is something every car owner JUST knows - Car not starting, lights not working at all, - battery cable is the first culprit! Its like saying if you had a puncture in a remote place - what to do? Boss, you are expected to know how to change a tire.
Hats off to your love towards Thar! Its truly amazing.

But tell me Manveet, would you have accepted any bolt coming out of your Honda city or Getz? How would you feel if your Thar stops on a daily run and you have to open the bonnet in the middle of the road to tighten 'something' which should not be loose at the first place?

As far as dents are concerned, I haven't seen a single Thar that can pass a reflection test!
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Old 7th June 2013, 13:41   #310
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Hi rrsteer,

The Scorpio 4x4 cost 15Lakhs approx. Thar CRDe 9Lakhs approx.
The Scorpio LX 4wd variant costs less. In Jalandhar it will cost me approx Rs 10.5 lakhs on the road. The Thar costs about Rs 7.7 lakhs on the road. So considering that the hard top in Thar costs a lakh and other improvements take in another lakh at the least, the Thar would end up costing more than Rs 9.7 lakhs. In which case I felt Scorpio should be a better deal.

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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear rrsteer - the answer is very simple. People buy Thar because it looks like Jeep. If it looked like anything else, people would not have bought it (we would not have made it in the first place)!
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Originally Posted by XD2 View Post
As folks have pointed out in earlier posts, one of the driving reasons for many to go for a Thar is this 'Jeep thing'.
I for one can't/don't understand the 'Jeep thing'! Which is surprising, because I live in a state where every 20 something wants to do 2 things: 1) Hit the gym 2) A 'Gehri' in a Jeep.

My question, was more from the point of view of a vehicle functionality and 4wd prowess on trails, but sans looks.

Last edited by rrsteer : 7th June 2013 at 13:45.
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Old 7th June 2013, 13:43   #311
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Originally Posted by manveet View Post
This is something every car owner JUST knows - Car not starting, lights not working at all, - battery cable is the first culprit! Its like saying if you had a puncture in a remote place - what to do? Boss, you are expected to know how to change a tire.
Dear Manveet - I used to think like you. For my cars, I always attend to all these niggles in "My PDI" (Pre Delivery Inspection) process. For normal customers, I have now changed my thinking. This happened after I opened the bonnet of my cousin brother's "small car". It was very funny. I did not have to use the prop to keep the bonnet up, it just stayed up because the hinge pins had rusted! He had not even opened the bonnet for close to two years! So, a majotity of people are like that only, we need to accept it. "Bolt falling on head" is serious to them and they matter, because they are CUSTOMERS"!


Dear Mallumowgli - You are absolutely correct! Its like breaking your head against a wall, only your head will break! By the way, Thar CRDe is made on the Bolero line in Nasik plant. The company only told us to dream, so I thought it was OK to dream, so I dreamt, and I fulfilled my dream also, I don't know whether they liked it or not, who cares, big deal, they were left with no choice but to sell anyways, the thingy is selling, so "game over"! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 7th June 2013, 13:52   #312
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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
"Bolt falling on head" is serious to them and they matter, because they are CUSTOMERS"!
Its not just about being a customer. Its about - if 1 bolt falls off, what is the guarantee that other bolts won't fall off?? If it was a one off incident, one can overlook. But when you put it together with all other issues - it leads to a serious lack of trust and reliability in the product.

Besides, the solution to is so simple as you have explained in your previous post. If the manufacturer invests just a tiny little bit more (self locking nuts/bolts, Rs 800 more for the brake calliper etc etc) - the customers will get so much more benefits. Believe me, people would be happy paying a few thousands extra to get that kind of reliability from the factory in which case, manufacturer can recover the additional costs easily.


Quote:
Originally Posted by manveet View Post
I am NOT an expert on the Thar. But since you are an expert on the "problems you faced", what "structural component" did this bolt belong to? AFAIK there are no structural components that high up in the Thar.
Read my original post where all these have been explained in the below post

Quote:
Originally Posted by anda60213 View Post
To start with, ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by manveet View Post
In fact, just to resolve that "issue" of lack of structural rigidity with the Thar (leading to rattle and body-shear in cornering), people are installing roll-bars and then connecting them to the B-pillar.
So you accept that there is one of these issues about structural rigidity which needs to be fixed for making it road worthy. Which just proves what I said in my post that you took offense to.

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Originally Posted by anda60213 View Post
So the bottomline with the Thar is:
c) To make it on road worthy and off road worthy - you need to be Dhabhar Behram and spend money to make it what you want. <clarified>(or atleast have knowledge like his)<clarified>
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Originally Posted by manveet View Post
This is something every car owner JUST knows - Car not starting, lights not working at all,
Nope. I have never had a vehicle with these problems and I have owned 7 myself and another 6 of my brother who has also never ever faced such basic issues.

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Originally Posted by manveet View Post
Alternately, you could make a few phone-calls and a fellow TBHP'ian would help you out. Or just phone the Mahindra Service guy - they would give you some quick advice.
I did. That is why the vehicle started after the workshop guys came.

But you seem to be missing the point altogether in your attempt to make this about bashing me.

I was at a location where the I could reach people and get it solved.

This vehicle promises go anywhere capability and in that "go anywhere" one may not be able to contact others so easily. That is where a person gets stranded.

What does he or she do?

Or are you saying that one needs to first become a someone technically knowledgeable about such problems before taking this vehicle anywhere? That would again prove what I have said - One needs to have BD (or have the knowledge similar to BD) for this vehicle.

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Originally Posted by manveet View Post
Are these experts on TBhp? Please give names. Everybody who calls himself or herself an expert, or whom you think is an expert - does not qualify to be called an expert.
I know that they regularly off road here in Pune. I know they participate in M&M championship events and some of them have even won at some point of time or another. That was my yardstick to consider them as experts.

Hindi me kahawat hai - andhe ko (aur agyani ko) kaala akshar bhais barabar.

The people I have made friends with here know. They know who advised me what. BD knows who advised me the tyres. I do not want to make this a mud slinging match about individuals. I write here on the principles of what a customer is entitled to when he or she pays for a product.


It is however interesting to see your reactions even though you have said exactly the same thing (in your earlier post) which I have been saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manveet View Post
I have been following the thread closely. It's not so much about "is the Thar a good vehicle?" but more about "Is the Thar at X quality and Y price-tag, worth it?".

So here are my quick answers to a few FAQ's that I face ..
  • Is the Mahindra Thar overpriced : Yes.
  • Is it possible to get a better quality Mahindra Thar at the current price point : Possibly, Yes.
  • Is it possible to get the same Mahindra Thar (as it exists today) at a lower price point : Definitely, Yes.
  • Is Mahindra being fair to its customers : No
  • As a customer, do I feel any brand loyalty to Mahindra : Hell, No.
  • But aren't they helping the community - look at their "special initiatives" like Mahindra Adventure: Hogwash marketing stuff. They don't even allow you to take your "own" Thar on any 1+ day event. In my opinion, its primarily because all defects would come to the forefront - fact is that they can replace multiple problems in own vehicles and no on will be the wiser. But what they will tell you is that "their vehicles are specially prepared for this" or "they can guarantee the condition of their vehicles but not user vehicles" as "we are not sure how each owner treats his Thar".
  • Is Thar a true-blue offroader : Hell, No.
  • Is it a family vehicle : No.
  • Can it be the only vehicle : No.
  • Can it be a primary vehicle within the city : Yes. With a few mods.
  • Would I recommend the Thar : Does ANY car less than 15L (even 30L for that matter) available in the market today garner the kind of attention on the road that the Thar does?
  • Wait till the Wrangler comes, it will kill the Thar : Ok, lets wait and watch. Maybe it will, maybe it will not. Depends on the price point. Personally, I will be comparing "Thar + customization" expense to "Wrangler+customization" expense.
I don't like Mahindra and I agree with most of the Thar-basher's on this thread - the ones who are criticizing the vehicle from a "quality" or "price" perspective.

But as a product - Mahindra is bang on. They are taking advantage of their monopoly and skimming the market, so what? I personally feel the iPhone is overpriced but everyone else in my family has one. That's MY problem. Not Apple's.

Do not compare Honda quality of 4L vehicle with Mahindra quality of 8L vehicle. Look at it this way - at 8.5-10-12L whatever, do you get a Jeep as reliable as this. I don't think so.

So this is what I told myself before I bought my Thar : Boss, you are buying a Jeep, a few trips to the garage should be OK with you. That's what owning a Jeep is all about. If you are not prepared for this commitment - then you don't deserve a Jeep.

My expectations were aligned to Mahindra's reality. That's the only reason I was kind of OK with what I got, and more than happy with what I customized it into.
Quote:
Originally Posted by manveet View Post
Neither do I. Honestly, I feel bad that you had to go through all of this - and no one deserves these kind of issues in a new vehicle. Am truly with you on this one.

All are quality issues, and no matter what you call them - are unacceptable. So I agree with you on this one as well. All I am saying is that calling it a "Jeep experience" makes it a little easy to live with.


Just for the record, I have had NONE of these issues thus far, touchwood. But then I don't have much of the OE stuff remaining.

Edit: I just read TSK's post above and agree with him completely. IMHO we need to delineate the company and the product for what it is vs. the options available. The Thar is still more reliable and better quality than an MM540 built with a new engine from a local garage in Gurgaon or Mayapuri. THAT is the frame of reference here, and to no great credit to Mahindra.

Last edited by anda60213 : 7th June 2013 at 14:05.
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Old 7th June 2013, 13:53   #313
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Originally Posted by manveet View Post
This is something every car owner JUST knows - Car not starting, lights not working at all, - battery cable is the first culprit! Its like saying if you had a puncture in a remote place - what to do? Boss, you are expected to know how to change a tire.

Still, its OK you could not figure it out - but you could pop open the bonnet, kind of tricky on the Thar, but still manageable - look around and identify the loose battery cable.
Many car owners, if not majority, that I know don't know or don't bother with changing tires in case of a flat. But even then, comparing having a flat with other mechanical or electrical problems is not acceptable, simply because problem of any other kind is directly related to the quality of the vehicle. Even the car manufacturers don't except us to know anything other than changing wheels, replacing fuses and bulbs and other simple things.

If you love your Jeep, fiddling with it or don't mind getting your hands dirty, that's great. But most people here in the forum as well as anywhere else, would just like to own a trouble-free car to the extent possible.
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Old 7th June 2013, 13:55   #314
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Originally Posted by manveet View Post
So you actually believe that all your posts on this thread are influencing people away from the Thar, think again. At best, it is just helping separate the wheat from the chaff - for the overall benefit of the Jeeping community.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ve...eep-story.html
Well I don't know about others, but i was DEFINITELY swayed away from buying a Thar by the colossal negative reviews it received on T-bhp and 2 friends who bought them, in addition to 1 minor incident at the sales and service location itself: The chief sales guy who did not know the difference between 2 valves and 2 cylinders insisted that I would get a 2012 manufactured model only and NOT a 2013 one. When asked why, he said we have to clear old stock. I was a little shocked at his attitude especially considering the fact that they do not have a single vehicle available for a test-drive. I chose to buy a dear friend's Civic instead and fulfil my 4x4 dreams either by buying the Wrangler if priced right or building a 550.

The other factors that influenced me in a minor way were:
1) I used to own a prepped MG410 in my college days bought from a guy in Pune who used to race 2 and 4-wheelers professionally. It was prepped by none other than Leela and sold to me before it was ever raced. To my knowledge that was one of just 14 MG410s that he completely did up, but I may be wrong. That thing was so quick off the mark that it warped the driver's seat mount within a year. After a drift-king like that, that sounded like a lion through stadium speakers and made any driver seem like a driving god, I didn't really think a 1700 kg 100 bhp thar with an anemic low-end would be the same amount of fun. So I thought that if anyway i am compromising majorly on the fun factor for the achingly soulful jeep looks, then why not go for a 550? In my opinion a 550 NGCS is a more honest "jeep". On the other hand, if I want an honest Go-Anywhere-OFFROADER, I know what to get.

2) I do not intend to wrench at all. My RD-350 sucked up all my wrenching desires and now every vehicle I own will need to be a trouble-free, exciting piece of kit. This makes me slightly apprehensive of going for a Mahindra product, the 550, but not as much as going for a Thar. In the 3 years that I had the 410, and after all those endless, sideways, wannabe-rally-driver jaunts in Karjat and Chakan, I didn't even need to change a light-bulb. I sincerely think a Thar wouldn't survive my driving for more than a month.

Am still waiting for Nookala ji to take up Behram's gauntlet and enter a Thar in TPC and win it without chewing through 37 intercoolers LOL. That last part was a joke; Thar-lovers, please don't start furiously typing now. But nevertheless, I would love to be proven wrong.

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Old 7th June 2013, 13:57   #315
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Originally Posted by manveet View Post
Sirjee,

I don't remember Anil talking about his incorrect tire upgrade on the forum, which seems to be the cause of one of the major problems.

And about the battery cable, he could have got it tightened at a local mechanic for 50 Rs. Heck, some nice guy would have done it for free.

And a few bolts fell on his head. Lol.

Thats it!!??. And he decided to sell the Thar and is going on and on about it on this forum about the Thar being a Non-functional car.

Hello Manveet,
Let me start of by saying that "I LOVE WHAT YOU'VE DONE TO YOUR JEEP!!". In fact your Jeep is my PC's screensaver.
Having said that,there are some things that I would like to comment.
Quote:
I don't remember Anil talking about his incorrect tire upgrade on the forum, which seems to be the cause of one of the major problems.
There are a lot of cars that run on tire upgrades in India. Do all of them have alignment problems? No, then why just this.

Quote:
And about the battery cable, he could have got it tightened at a local mechanic for 50 Rs. Heck, some nice guy would have done it for free.
Of course he could have, but the question is is WHY SHOULD HE??!!
Then what the hell is M&M's responsibility??!! Heck going by this standard, a day will come when we will be told to repair the car ourselves!!! If we are investing our money, we should get it's worth. PERIOD.
Your above statement also reflects the Indian mentality - the CHALTA HAI attitude. And unless this changes, the manufacturers will not change.

Quote:
And a few bolts fell on his head. Lol.
Let's ask a question - " How much bolts should fall,before the issue is taken seriously?"
Let's imagine a scenario where your close friend has taken your Thar for a spin. The bolt holding the seatbelt falls off & your friend unfortunately meets with a minor mishap.
Will you be LOL'ing then??!!
The point I'm trying to make is,a bolt should not fall off, irrespective of whether it's a seat belt bolt or a hardtop screw.

The love of our vehicle should not blind us from seeing such basic shortcomings.
BD Sir has openly commented on this forum that M&m went in for a single pot booster(or something therein) to save 800 bucks. In effect what that means is that 800 bucks is more precious than a Indian life.

I have nothing more to add,I rest my case here.

Regards,
Varun
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