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Old 7th June 2013, 14:12   #316
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by prakash_ajp View Post
Many car owners, if not majority, that I know don't know or don't bother with changing tires in case of a flat. But even then, comparing having a flat with other mechanical or electrical problems is not acceptable, simply because problem of any other kind is directly related to the quality of the vehicle. Even the car manufacturers don't except us to know anything other than changing wheels, replacing fuses and bulbs and other simple things.
Let me clarify - I agree to almost everything Anil has said but what is irritating is his going on and on about his car being non-functional. I mean, you made a point - we got it. We agreed. Now let it go.

If comparing a puncture to a starter wire is an exaggeration, then comparing a starter-wire problem to a "non-functioning car" 20 times over is an exaggeration as well.

The only problem here in simple terms is that Anil did not know what he was getting into, and he suffered because of it. He got conned by Mahindra marketing.

In no way am I justifying Mahindra, its crap quality and am very clear no one should suffer because of their problems. There is NOT a single person on this thread who disagrees with the above. Lets move on now.

I bought the Thar because I wanted a hobby vehicle, so I am happy. This is not my primary vehicle. This CANNOT be a primary vehicle for anyone with wife and kids.

Buy the Thar if you do not have high expectations of quality and are fine with tinkering around once in a while, preferably have some past experience of spending time with mechanics, or don't mind it. Else do NOT buy the vehicle. Mahindra SUCKS.

I believe this explicitly clarifies my position on things.
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Old 7th June 2013, 14:53   #317
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Originally Posted by manolin View Post
Yes, everyone is waiting for FIAT with its atrocious service levels and network (relevant for 4X4 touring), to turn up in India with a vehicle which, because its assembled in India or imported directly, will have huge spare parts supply problems. We are not even getting into training for Wrangler mechanics etc., pricing etc. There is almost zero chance of wrangler making even a tiny dent in the Thar market - they may have a slot against the GV, Xtrail market (which is so tiny that it doesn't matter to Mahindra)

The worst thing about FIAT is that they are suspicious of everything Indian. Their bad experience with PAL, made them doubt everything - I had a close view of this when the FIAT- TATA JV stuff was happening and my law firm was involved in that - they would doubt everything, and start jabbering in Italian. All JVs are built on some amount of trust. These guys take suspicion to a different level.

And what is a jeep - a brand name? Who gives two hoots about a sticker or piece of metal letterings. Jeep to most people in India is a rugged vehicle which carries people places - a jeep, as thought of for eternity in most of India, is a rugged people carrier - sometimes 4x4. Even trekkers, commanders, jongas were called jeeps. I believe that when someone made a jeepers club, it was a continuation of that same principle (knowingly or unknowningly) - every manufacturer's vehicles take part in those club activities - because to them jeeps were rugged vehicles able to take up the terrain.

Ed: My point being that Wrangler will not be the solution to any problems regarding 4x4 availability in India. The solution lies with only with manufacturers with real bases in India.
I don't want to comment about Fiat JV with PAL or Tata or for that matter Mahindra JV with Renault, the less said the better. People who just know Jeep by its name(locals) are the ones who dont care a Hoot for the lovely vehicle as they have no idea about the Jeep legacy for them unfortunately that is the only option as a people carrier in rural areas which occupy 70%(apprx.) of our country. The same people are the most easy target for companies like Mahindra as they know that Rural people will not fight back as it is Ok with them, this factor also seems to hold true with Urban buyers in the form of the infamous Chalta Hai attitude.

The customers then and even now in some cases were not aware of the world class global standards that other auto companies follow, and companies like Mahindra were taking full advantage of this by offering bull crap. Just see on another thread about the turbo charger in a Ssanygyong Rexton gone kaput and the so called Mahindra service engineers unable to rectify it and some authorised mahindra service centre even refused to touch the Rexton, so much for the Mahindra Rise tagline. They are working in India since last 60 years going like this will they ever Rise in true sense(they may rise commercially). That brings me to my next and most important point and that is Mahindra has a monopoly of manufacturing Jeep like vehicles in India as they are the only manufacturer doing this since their inception, they have no competition in this segment atleast for the iconic Jeep face type model, they are taking full advantage of this and cashing in on this. It's good that Mahindra is making profit but that profit comes at the cost of poor workmanship, sub-standard product, zero quality and lastly dissatisfied customers. Also when you talk about the offroad club activities about Mahindra Jeeps I would like to see how it fares against the JEEP Wrangler in the same or worst 4X4 offroad trails, there's a saying in Hindi "doodh ka doodh aur paani ka paani ho jayega."

Also about manufacturers with real bases in India solving the 4X4 availability in India, tell me which 4X4 manufacturer in India has designed their own 4x4 model, I'm not even talking about the engine, gearbox and other components as it is a different ball game altogether. As we are discussing about Mahindra they have been using the same Jeep model platform and design with minor tweaks from so many years. We have been waiting for Mahindra to give us something fresh like how Chrysler did to the original Willy's Overland JEEP by bringing out the JEEP Wrangler. It's been more than 60 years that Mahindra is in business, do you think we should wait for another 60 years for a manufacturer no assembler is the right word for a company like Mahindra to give if not a Wrangler but something like a Wrangler quality product.

Mahindra has taken the same old dyes of the MM540 and brought out the Thar with some bells and whistles that too which don't ring.

Last but not the least Mahindra till the early 90's was indirectly protected by the Government of India's protectionist policies which helped them make anything and throw at the customers. Now it's a free market albiet some restrictions still being there which is protecting local companies like Mahindra. Let some competition and more free market come in then we willl see how the competitors mercilessly hammer down Mahindra to where it belongs to unless they understand the value of a customer and manufacturing true world class products.

Last edited by navin_v8 : 7th June 2013 at 14:58. Reason: adding additional comments
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Old 7th June 2013, 19:13   #318
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Originally Posted by navin_v8 View Post
People who just know Jeep by its name(locals) are the ones who dont care a Hoot for the lovely vehicle as they have no idea about the Jeep legacy for them unfortunately that is the only option as a people carrier in rural areas which occupy 70%(apprx.) of our country.
Jeep in India is synonymous with utility, it might be a Trax for that matter, but might be called a Jeep. Not many are able to identify the vehicle by MM540/MM550/MM650/Thar DI/Thar CRDE/whatever. Jeep to them is something which looks good (subjective but I go by popular appeal), is agrarian, can carry loads/people/goats/chicken/whatever. Can take mud/stones/even people standing on bonnets and bumpers/cost of use is cheap/lot of mechanical work required etc.

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Originally Posted by navin_v8 View Post
The customers then and even now in some cases were not aware of the world class global standards
We are mostly an agrarian country with developed pockets in the cities, awareness is low, reach is negligible and top it all even if you are aware what can you do?

If you have the budget for world class standards-buy it
If you don't, then this is the first step for compromise, for everything else which is not world class, will cost lesser. So, now you start looking for something that is at least 'Some' Class if not world class with a competitive price.

Here's a small conversation between a Jeep lover and his conscience when you start looking for one.

HuMan: Can't find any 'Some' Class vehicle called JeeP?
Conscience: Don't purchase the vehicle,

HuMan : But then this 'passion' thing takes a hit, what to do?
Conscience: Hmmmm go on to these forums, read them thoroughly, see what problems people have faced

HuMan: Ok, read all of it, there seems to be a lot of issues with this vehicle called Jeep. And only one manufacturer makes it in India, what to do?
Conscience: You sure, you want to buy it?

HuMan: If I don't purchase this vehicle called Jeep, then this 'passion' thing will take a hit.
Conscience: Hmmmm, then go ahead, but remember you would be considered a fool by many.

HuMan: I am OK, I love this vehicle called JeeP
Conscience: Are you sure?

HuMan: Yes, totally
Conscience: OK, buy it then.

A few months later...

HuMan: This vehicle called JeeP is driving me nuts
Conscience: I told you so, where is the passion buddy?

HuMan: This company loots everyone what standards they have, Global Standards, blah blah blah
Conscience: I told you so, where is the passion buddy?

HuMan: So many people have had the same issues, have you read the forums!
Conscience: I told you so, where is the passion buddy?

HuMan: Passion has a price, but this is not what I signed up for!
Conscience: I told you so, where is the passion buddy?

HuMan: I hate this vehicle called JeeP, I will sell it
Conscience: WHAT! So much for your passion

I think this kind of sums up, we all know about its plus & minus, and it keeps running at the back of our heads all the time, but then its always Heart over Mind isn't it?

People who have bought it and feel they suffered knew it somewhere that this might happen, they were hoping against hope, praying for things to go right, praying that the mind was wrong.

Alas, that is not to be my friend, for going with the heart, you need to sacrifice, after all Love is Blind isn't it?

But as is the case with love, after a while Love suddenly gets Eyes, Ears, Nose and a big mouth as well hahaha which keeps reminding all the time maybe good maybe bad!
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Old 7th June 2013, 19:15   #319
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Originally Posted by powertrain View Post
In effect what that means is that 800 bucks is more precious than a Indian life. I have nothing more to add,I rest my case here
Dear Varun - I have copied your above sentence here and I am adding somethings to it. What I am adding is underlined.

In effect what that means is that in today's Great Indian Corporate World, 800 bucks only presentation instead of work is more precious than a Indian life and to hell with somebody's career!

The guy who proposes the saving knows that he is meeting his target of cost reduction so he does not care, the guy to who the first fellow does "shine maroing" of his saving does not even know how to sit properly in the driving seat of the vehicle, how can he even apply the brakes to determine whether they are good or not? Believe you me guys, I am not kidding! HaHaHa!

.

I have nothing more to add, I rest my case here. Me too.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 8th June 2013, 04:51   #320
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

You've summed it very well mate. I've been wanting to buy the Thar for a while now. Wouldn't mind spending time with the mechanics or at the garage tweeking it up to my desire, but sadly, time is something that I don't have on my hands as I am mostly out of India. Maybe one day soon I will take the plunge but am hoping that at that time I have the option to choose between couple vehicles . That's wishful thinking.
I've been following your thread. You have done an awesome job with your Red Thar. It's commendable.
Nothing drives better than passion.

Cheers


Quote:
Originally Posted by manveet View Post
Let me clarify - I agree to almost everything Anil has said but what is irritating is his going on and on about his car being non-functional. I mean, you made a point - we got it. We agreed. Now let it go.

If comparing a puncture to a starter wire is an exaggeration, then comparing a starter-wire problem to a "non-functioning car" 20 times over is an exaggeration as well.

The only problem here in simple terms is that Anil did not know what he was getting into, and he suffered because of it. He got conned by Mahindra marketing.

In no way am I justifying Mahindra, its crap quality and am very clear no one should suffer because of their problems. There is NOT a single person on this thread who disagrees with the above. Lets move on now.

I bought the Thar because I wanted a hobby vehicle, so I am happy. This is not my primary vehicle. This CANNOT be a primary vehicle for anyone with wife and kids.

Buy the Thar if you do not have high expectations of quality and are fine with tinkering around once in a while, preferably have some past experience of spending time with mechanics, or don't mind it. Else do NOT buy the vehicle. Mahindra SUCKS.

I believe this explicitly clarifies my position on things.
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Old 8th June 2013, 11:13   #321
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Reminds me when every buyer of a new Ambassador would go straight to the workshop and get
. All bolts tightened
. Check the welds in the floor pan and strengthen them with additional welds
. Check the wiring harness and ensure all electricals work.

That was then. Once Maruti came, the sales plummeted and all of us who had invested in a whole lot of hand tools for DIY jobs were devastated. In my twenty years of ownership of Maruti vehicles, all my tools are lying packed and I do not recollect using them at all except to change the battery once every three years

Just to utilize my tools, I think I will get the Thar so that all my skills gained during the Ambassador and Fiat days, are not lost for ever.

On a more serious note. If we start with assumption that the Thar, like the Ambassador at its nadir, requires a thorough checking at PDI and within first week of ownership (tighten all bolts, grease all sliding surfaces, change upgrade the parts that are know to break . . ., then we will have a decent vehicle. After all the ambassadors did give stellar service in rural areas once its "manufacturing defects" were taken care of. If you want a "Fill and forget" vehicle, then I am afraid the Thar is not for you.

If you are going to take any vehicle to off beat and remote locations, then you better know how to carry out minor repairs/adjustment. Even those who take the reliable Toyotas on expeditions, have a lot of expertise in minor repairs.
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Old 8th June 2013, 15:05   #322
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2) MM vehicles have quality defects and one needs to learn to live with them and accept it as part of the game (compromise).
This becomes a generic statement for al MM vehicles? Not true at all! I own a Mahindra Scorpio from 2007 and believe me, I haven't spent more than 90k till date over service, spares and replacements (tyre replacement after 5 yr included). For that matter of quality defects, one of my friends purchase an Ertiga last year and it's engine had leaking problem that even Suzuki QA guys from Japan couldn't resolve or find a reason thereof and ultimately they replaced the entire engine assembly. He is now thinking of getting rid off the "non-functional" vehicle.

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Originally Posted by anda60213 View Post
Not correct. The dents in the vehicle existed even before I took delivery...
...But the point is - I was left stranded with a non functional vehicle. That is a fact.
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Originally Posted by manveet View Post
Lets not talk about the dents. If there was an unusual dent - please put up pictures. There are dents and then there are dings. If the vehicle had dents, you should NOT have taken delivery. Period.
+1 to Manveet's response on the dent things. This should be true for any vehicle.

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Originally Posted by powertrain View Post
.
BD Sir has openly commented on this forum that M&m went in for a single pot booster(or something therein) to save 800 bucks. In effect what that means is that 800 bucks is more precious than a Indian life.
Didn't BD sir also mentioned that the specs with a single pot calipers also met the CMVR?

Ultimately if I understand it correctly, the whole thread and Thar bashing is based on:
1. People assuming it to be a true offroad vehicle and then getting frustrated by its limitations. But then M&M never claimed it to be one!
2. Personal experience of 2-3 bad units
3. Comparison with high-end vehicle
4. Wishlist not being fulfilled.

Am I wrong?

And of course +1 to the last post by Aroy.

Last edited by Nonstop-driver : 8th June 2013 at 15:08.
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Old 8th June 2013, 15:21   #323
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This is what came to mind after all this bashing and bragging that we have been doing. If you want a Jeep (Mahindra), start young!
Attached Thumbnails
Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!-mm.jpg  

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Old 9th June 2013, 08:46   #324
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Originally Posted by manveet View Post

The only problem here in simple terms is that Anil did not know what he was getting into, and he suffered because of it. He got conned by Mahindra marketing.
The truth is he just got one bad piece to add injury to insult.

Quote:
In no way am I justifying Mahindra, its crap quality and am very clear no one should suffer because of their problems. There is NOT a single person on this thread who disagrees with the above. Lets move on now.
I still own a 1989 540 (bought New), I know what garbage is . But now when I looked at the Thar closely, I saw very notable difference in build & paint quality , seats ,electrical etc ( plastics are crap as usual - no difference ) . The chassis is rock solid, mechanicals look sturdy enough. All compared to the 540 lot.

I had been to Nasik plant & had discussion with the man himself on the very assembly line with a rolling chassis in front of us, specially kept aside for the discussion & observation purpose. I must say I am impressed with what I saw.

I am in to the "Hobby" of Land Rover since I saw a series 1 in a auction, in 93 (bought by my friend) & have owned three different models since 14 yrs . I have also had a good run with various LR models produced up to 96 . With this back ground I must agree that the Thar is a bold experiment & I am eager to own one. (may be very shortly)

Quote:
This CANNOT be a primary vehicle for anyone with wife and kids.
Why not if a 40 odd year old Land Rover can become one ? My kid "travels" to school in it every day . It all depends on the adaptability & everyone may not have it if one is used to a too cozy lifestyle , but we are not . Even my Dad (83) is happy with the LR ride when we visit our farms.

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Originally Posted by Nonstop-driver View Post
This becomes a generic statement for al MM vehicles? Not true at all! I own a Mahindra Scorpio from 2007 and believe me===== He is now thinking of getting rid off the "non-functional" vehicle.
well said.

Quote:
Ultimately if I understand it correctly, the whole thread and Thar bashing is based on:
1. People assuming it to be a true offroad vehicle and then getting frustrated by its limitations. But then M&M never claimed it to be one!
2. Personal experience of 2-3 bad units
3. Comparison with high-end vehicle
4. Wishlist not being fulfilled.
I want to add Sour grapes theory behind the Thar Hatred . I can understand there is no real VFM for 9 lakhs on road , unless one sees it from specific angles like I do.
One thing is quite clear, buying a Thar must be a well informed decision otherwise its a disaster like Anda

Sudarshan

Last edited by Sudarshan : 9th June 2013 at 08:52.
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Old 9th June 2013, 13:49   #325
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I had a more generic question - is it that Jeeps in general are considered more maintenance than any other car/SUV ?

I was in the US for some time - and being hooked to Jeeps i was looking to buy a Wranger. I did have a limited budget though. Friends who were residents there thought I was bonkers and told me to get a Toyota saying a Jeep comes with its pains, and might be more trouble than what I could manage.
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Old 9th June 2013, 14:31   #326
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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear Varun -
The guy who proposes the saving knows that he is meeting his target of cost reduction so he does not care, the guy to who the first fellow does "shine maroing" of his saving does not even know how to sit properly in the driving seat of the vehicle, how can he even apply the brakes to determine whether they are good or not? Believe you me guys, I am not kidding! HaHaHa!
Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
Hello BD Sir,
Let me start off by saying that I truely THANK YOU for bringing the Thar from your "mind" to the "showroom"
But with all due respect, I beg to differ to your opinion in your above post:-

Quote:
The guy who proposes the saving knows that he is meeting his target of cost reduction....
COST REDUCTION - Every organization's single point focus.
Let me tell you that my company is maybe 1/100th of the size of M&M & we have cost reduction focus too. But does -
COST REDUCTION EQUAL QUALITY COMPROMISE/SAFETY COMPROMISE??!!
Is it not a completely wrong way to fulfill targets??!!

In that sense, what Union Carbide did in Bhopal in 1984 seems perfectly logical & ethically right!! They compromised on their equipment safety too.

Many say(and I do not agree),that Thar is a niche vehicle. I shudder to think what if the same cost cutting exercise happens to M&M's milking cow, the Bolero!!

A company such as M&M should know "whom to listen & how to act".

I do have one query though - I read somewhere that Ranjith invested around 50K's to bring his Thar's brakes the way it should have been. How did a saving of 800 bucks for M&M become an expense of 50K's to Ranjith??!!

I hope that I've not offended you in any way. Apologies if I have.

Regards,
Varun

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonstop-driver View Post

Didn't BD sir also mentioned that the specs with a single pot calipers also met the CMVR?
Hello NSD,
The same CMVR states that ABS & Airbags are not mandatory in passenger vehicles. Does it mean that we should not buy cars equipped with ABS & Airbags & it's an unnecessary expense??!! You've got to be kidding me...

Quote:
Ultimately if I understand it correctly, the whole thread and Thar bashing is based on:
1. People assuming it to be a true offroad vehicle and then getting frustrated by its limitations. But then M&M never claimed it to be one!
Wrong again my friend. M&M has always claimed the Thar to be an "OFFROAD ADVENTURE RECREATION VEHICLE"
Below is the Thar launch presentation by Mr. Vivek Nayar. Do go through the whole clip & focus on timeframe 4:26 to 4:40 & 5:20 to 5:30.


Below is the Thar launch presentation by BD Sir. Go through the whole clip & focus on timeframe 0:49 to 1:10 & 2:45 to 2:50 ; the ppt on 3:33 & the AV from 4:19 to 4:35:-


Below is the Thar launch presentation by Vinod Nookala.Go through the whole clip & focus on timeframe 1:47 to 1:57 & 5:00 to 5:05.


Please understand that we are not "assuming" anything, we are merely "believing" what M&M said.

And the 3 gentlemen above did not talk what came into their minds. Before announcing to the world about the launch, these people must have given this same presentation to M&M senior management & got their approval.

Even if they wanted to sneeze, it would have warranted their approval!!!

Quote:
2. Personal experience of 2-3 bad units
There are equal no. of satisfied & dissatisfied Thar customers.

Quote:
3. Comparison with high-end vehicle
AFAIK, nobody compared the Thar with cars like Hummer. The comparison is limited to how much we pay v/s what we get!!! If anyone has compared the Thar to a more expensive vehicle then it's unfair to the Thar.
You can't buy a Mercedes for Maruti money.

Quote:
Am I wrong?
That I dont know, I'm just providing a different perspective. You are free to slam it!!!


Regards,
Varun

Last edited by powertrain : 9th June 2013 at 14:46.
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Old 9th June 2013, 16:26   #327
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Originally Posted by headers View Post
4x4 high can be used..it should not matter for 100m or so..


And I doubt the remap having anything to do with power and torque curve characteristic at all..
Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post

Dear Ken - the "guys" who map the ECU are not "flatlanders" or for that matter, "anylanders" also. Some guys who do this may not be company guys at all! I have very regularly heard "as per XYZ", it is always "XYZ", never "us"! It is very frustrating. That area is a black box. First of all, it is sacrilege to ask. If you are still crazy enough to ask (I was), the "emissions" bogey gets hung in front of you! I got tired of it, that's why "My Super Thar" got born in the first place without anybody even realizing that it existed! Its time someone took this thingy seriously, if not for anything else, there is huge potential for "post registration business" here, which you as customers will gladly pay for and buy, instead of trying your hand at "something, hoping that it will work"! It was made and demonstrated in EXAMM / AKC for that purpose only!

Dear Sharath - off-roaders need not have bad handling. I had proved it on 25 June 2010 late evening during returning to Lonavla from EXAMM where a certain blue colored fully blown rally prepared Gypsy driven by a very competent and dear personal friend could not even keep up, let alone overtake! But for that you need IFS! You also need the tires! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

My seat-of-pants-ometer tells me that an engine that is about 2500cc with a 105bhp rating and 4:30 crown gears ought to be able to perform better at low speeds than it does. Behram's comments are just what I suspected.

Are there enough of these engines out there in the Thar and other vehicles (Xylo???) to warrant a Petes Box or a Sunita's steroid injection or some such aftermarket enhancement and savior?

About tyres and wheels.....Thar has 6.5 inch wide wheels if I am not mistaken. On other vehicles I have greatly improved the handling, particularly the body roll, by using wider wheels. I think wider wheels cut down sidewall flex and provide flatter handling. OF course if you go too wide you've got a probelm. Anybody with after market wider wheels on a Thar got a comment?
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Old 9th June 2013, 18:49   #328
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Are there enough of these engines out there in the Thar and other vehicles (Xylo???) to warrant a Petes Box or a Sunita's steroid injection or some such aftermarket enhancement and savior?
LOLL!!
Here you go Ken http://www.racechip.com/chiptuning/m...77kw/index.php
I am not sure if there is anybody here using it.
By the way, who really maps these ECUs for M&M - Bosch??
Cheers,
Deepak
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Old 9th June 2013, 18:55   #329
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By the way, who really maps these ECUs for M&M - Bosch??
Cheers,
Deepak
I think its Bosch. Plus the MM engine department
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Old 9th June 2013, 19:06   #330
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Originally Posted by headers View Post
I think its Bosch. Plus the MM engine department
Hey, Thanks for this info Vikram.
So just wondering, won't these Bosch service centers not be able to remap it, if need be?
Cheers,
Deepak
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