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Old 12th June 2013, 23:08   #361
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Dear all - (I don't know why I am even typing this, I just don't know!).

Please read the dialogue below, from the 1990 classic movie, the original "Agneepath", starring Amitabh Bachchan (AB) and Tinu Anand (TA). Make your own inferences!

(AB) - yahi hai woh gaon - haan - ek din maa ko - yeh gaon wapas deneka hai - yeh gaon jidhar se - maa ko nikaala, wapas deneka hai. (TA comes running to AB) - arre, aa gaya re mera Viju beta - haan, haan - beta - Viju - woh - tem aa gaya naa? - (AB) - haan kaka, tem aa gaya, aa gaya tem!

I still don't know why I did this, I guess I just had to!

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

PS - and guys, thanks for the compliments! .
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Old 13th June 2013, 10:56   #362
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

In any product development project there is a strategy cycle followed.

Conceptualization of idea.
Desk top research
Drawing, analysis, test
Benchmarking
Target customer study
Sales volumes and finacial projections

Based on this the first proto type is created.

THis proto type is more or less a replica of what is to be actually sold to customers and what will be approved by motor vehicle authorities and environmental authorities.

A trial production is done, and say about 10 to 12 cars are extensively tested in the extremest of conditions.

About 12 to 200 niggles crop up in each case, be it Toyota or Mercedese Benz.

These are sorted out and 6 to 8 more Gen 2 trial production cars are built and tested.

Finally an automobile manufacturer is ready to launch a new product.

In the case of Mahindra Thar it seems the following :

Two lobbies, one who wish to release a Jeep Clone while the other from Corporate affairs, finance, sales thinking the other way, why with Bolero, Scorpio, XUV, Xylo sales exceeding expectations why bother.

One wise man comes and explains the potential of Thar DI in new Avtar to police, govt. departments and perhaps army as the new derivative of MM540 / 550.

THis convinces Anand Mahindra and he gives the Go ahead.

Incedently, an afterthought - Lifestyle vehicle to be created with a CRD e engine from existing parts bin.

So a slopped up vehicle, with improper proto type and insufficient off road field data is hastily stiched up as Thar CRD e.

Data collection for off road functionality is not from a production proto but a souped up fabrication. Does this make any sence that what is being tested is not what is going to be produced and sold ?

Obviously it would fail - the 4WD system for off road terrain was less than perfect even in the 4x4 Scorpio the company knew that very well. No help was sought from outside vendors to sort it out, not from Jeep who dont care who Mahindra are any longer, not from the Korean Kia Motors who gave most of the Drive Train parts, not from local experts, not from the Chinese who can make modern and reliable 4x4 vehicles now, Great Wall, Deer, Cherry etc.

So it was garbage in leading to garbage out and here is a vehicle that fails miserably on all counts.

Is there any justification why it is priced higher than a Bolero ?

Then the
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Old 13th June 2013, 12:05   #363
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Perhaps two corrections required:

Quote:
Originally Posted by desertfox View Post

In the case of Mahindra Thar it seems the following :

Two lobbies, one who wish to release a Jeep Clone while the other from Corporate affairs, finance, sales thinking the other way, why with Bolero, Scorpio, XUV, Xylo sales exceeding expectations why bother.

One wise man comes and explains the potential of Thar (with DI engine as default) in new Avtar to yuppies and self styled off-roaders as the new derivative of MM540 / 550 for lifestyle purpose (citing the success of Mayapuri and Dabwali).

THis convinces Anand Mahindra and he gives the Go ahead.

Incedently, an afterthought - Lifestyle vehicle to be created with a CRD e engine from existing parts bin, because the DI engine will not suit the yuppie image.
Anyway Desertfox I do not get your perpetual ire, since it was made clear right at the launch that Thar WILL NOT be the ultimate 4x4 ride.

It carries a little bit of everything, and perhaps the wise man who spoke to Anand Mahindra got it right - it is a lifestyle vehicle for understated "tashan". But can also perform to a certain reasonable extent.

(Though in my opinion, it still looks crude and trucky compared to Classic)

Last edited by alpha1 : 13th June 2013 at 12:10.
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Old 13th June 2013, 14:24   #364
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

When a customer was buying a classic or MM550 he knew it was a cruse derived down not original but badly made desi Jeep clone which resemples a CJ 3B or CJ 5.

Thar promised a lot more. With AC, CRD e engine and that price tag it promised a Jeep Wrangler experience, the anguish is that it does not even match three decade old YJ standards.
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Old 13th June 2013, 18:38   #365
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Talking re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Did 300 kms today on a six month old Thar CRDe -- Oh I LOVE it .

# 8 am to 4.30 pm

# Mumbai Pune E way included

# Family packed with me ( Including M in Law )

# Top speeds upto 120 km

# climbed old Khandala Ghat -- OHH that was some fantastic piece of a drive

# Blasting Konkan typo rains




Conclusion, one more reason to buy a Thar

Sudarshan
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Old 13th June 2013, 18:40   #366
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Quote:
Originally Posted by desertfox View Post
When a customer was buying a classic or MM550 he knew it was a cruse derived down not original but badly made desi Jeep clone which resemples a CJ 3B or CJ 5.

Thar promised a lot more. With AC, CRD e engine and that price tag it promised a Jeep Wrangler experience, the anguish is that it does not even match three decade old YJ standards.
What was the price of Classic when it was launched? What all you could have in life for that money?

What is Thar? What all you could have in life for that money?


My point is that if we go back to early nineties, Classic was way more expensive than Thar is today.
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Old 13th June 2013, 20:45   #367
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

For all the reasons one do not want to buy THAR, dont buy it for the reasons you have
For all the reasons one want to buy THAR, go ahead buy it for all the reasons you have.

for me its like choosing a wife! will i be happy on choosing this one or should i expect to be happy? i cannot find a definite answer for this nor will ever find one. But i am happily married with all the niggles and troubles.

Thank you.
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Old 13th June 2013, 21:39   #368
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear all - (I don't know why I am even typing this, I just don't know!).

Please read the dialogue below, from the 1990 classic movie, the original "Agneepath", starring Amitabh Bachchan (AB) and Tinu Anand (TA). Make your own inferences!

(AB) - yahi hai woh gaon - haan - ek din maa ko - yeh gaon wapas deneka hai - yeh gaon jidhar se - maa ko nikaala, wapas deneka hai. (TA comes running to AB) - arre, aa gaya re mera Viju beta - haan, haan - beta - Viju - woh - tem aa gaya naa? - (AB) - haan kaka, tem aa gaya, aa gaya tem!

I still don't know why I did this, I guess I just had to!

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

PS - and guys, thanks for the compliments! .
So you are going back to take the dream/Thar to the next level?!
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Old 14th June 2013, 06:13   #369
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
Did 300 kms today on a six month old Thar CRDe -- Oh I LOVE it .

# 8 am to 4.30 pm

# Mumbai Pune E way included

# Family packed with me ( Including M in Law )

# Top speeds upto 120 km

# climbed old Khandala Ghat -- OHH that was some fantastic piece of a drive

# Blasting Konkan typo rains

Conclusion, one more reason to buy a Thar

Sudarshan
This clearly defines ones expectations of the THAR.

Did you have to do any bad roads at all? How was lane change at 120 kph?

How did you find the steering feedback?
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Old 14th June 2013, 08:09   #370
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

I'm not a Thar fanboy , I love the Thar as much as I hate it .
Im waitng for an upgraded Thar desperately like a lot of others ,@ Vinod hope you are seeing this .

I love to have an NGCS 550 with a DI turbo to do some really serious offroad stuff .( I think I can break an NGCS 550 if I want to )


The pics below are of the Thar won by Kurain Kurian in the Mahindra adventure offroad trophy .
I think they are quite serious about offroading and don't pussyfoot with it ,they are putting the Thar to good use .
Those are 32 inch bighorns with steel rims .
I know BD will be happy with the pics
Enjoy !

Pics from their FB page .
Attached Thumbnails
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Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!-923115_10151611968870960_1522617103_n.jpg  

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Old 14th June 2013, 08:39   #371
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post
This clearly defines ones expectations of the THAR.
WRONG , ohh come on be fair, throw those glasses & taste it. And once you do there is no turning back I bet

Apart from jokes, this is only the half part of my thar testing. If conditions permit, will take her off road.

But I am extremely happy with its road performance, no Jeep gypsy (the built ones) can come close to it. Its Sure footed. Thanks DB Sir.

Quote:
Did you have to do any bad roads at all? How was lane change at 120 kph?

How did you find the steering feedback?
ZERO problems, but do not compare it with sedans, its a Jeep.

Now get ready for the details

# At 120 lane change was NO problem despite its horrible aerodynamic shape.It was certainly sure footed .

The monsoon hovering over head & mad cross winds (typical Maval ,western MH) beating drums on the tarp (Top). Yes the winds are crazy in that area, but the Thar was rock solid. Then I came down to 80/90 for a while & let all those Volvoes pass by, again NO shaking when they passed & tried to suck you in turbulence, ZERO effect of that where one feels a sedan pushed or pulled by the turbulence of a close by passing Volvo Bus.

#Steering is absolutely good, no Issues. Though I am not so used to the Power steering thing, I have no complaints. But wait it shakes & vibrates unlike sedans. The rubble strips (painted thick ones - used to wake the sleeping driver) do not affect the driver control nor they shift the vehicle even at 80.

# All & all the vehicle was steady, the 100 bhp engine does its Job well . I tried the old Khandala ghat very effortlessly just like the 3.5 V8 Landy I had. stock Tyers are OK & braking IS adequate for me at least.

# I am NO five star driver but 29 (official) years of driving many vehicles from trucks to tins, tells me that this is NO Ordinary vehicle assembled from the parts bin. Its much more.

If one wants to take my word positively, I bet this will be equally good for offroads too(Havent had a good long test yet except few bits & pieces)

Though the price tag of 8.32 on road Pune is Certainly NOT justified but the vehicle is certainly not a Lemon as people say.

One needs to have a fair view, enough of Sour Grapes now .

Wish me Luck to acquire one Thar please .

Sudarshan
P.S. forgot about the bad road thing, been through the Mumbai potholes,again No complaints.
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Old 14th June 2013, 09:12   #372
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

So far, I have refrained from wading into this pool, but I feel as a person who has used Thar DI for 1 and 1/2 year and 20k Kilometers, and also driven the CRDe a fair bit, let me add my 2 cents. Firstly let me admit that I hate Mahindra. The only reason, I am a customer is because they make two half baked products called the Thar DI & Thar CRDe. In my opinion both have their flaws, both are over priced for what you get and both are a big compromise.

But the reality is that right now there is no other options. If you think the Gurkha is a solution, please test drive and come back to this thread. I had pinned my hopes on the Gurkha and was severely disappointed.

I know that Thar CRDe fans love to tom tom the off-road credentials of the CRDe. Frankly, Thar CRDe has many flaws off-road, but kick ass engine allows it to power it's way out of many obstacles. The problem however is that the suspension, steering, axles etc are the weak link in the armour and when an inexperienced off-road driver powers his way out of an obstacle, he is essentially starting down the path of breaking axles, steering & suspension. The Thar CRDe driver who knows how to use the power judiciously will probably be able to keep his vehicle from breaking. But then again, how many Thar buyers buy the Thar for hard core off-roading. If you look around, you will see that the number of Thar CRDe in sever competitive events are declining.

The Thar CRDe is an good compromise between off-road capabilities and on road experience. In fact it is the only option we have right now that fits this bill. It will take you through reasonable off-road trails without any major damage and reliably and comfortable take you to the office back and forth every day.

So to sum it up, a Thar CRDe is the best compromise there is if you want a recreational off-road vehicle which you don't plan to break intentionally. With front facing seats and hard top (which I will make available shortly :-0) a family of four can even use it as their only vehicle for city and long trips. My only advise to Thar CRDe owners who take it off-road is understand the limitations of the suspension, axles and rack and pinion steering and use the power carefully.

Behram sir, I think most of us understand how much you would have had to bang your head against the wall in a company like Mahindra to launch the Thar CRDe. Regardless of the criticism, there are 100s of happy owners who wouldn't be driving a jeep if you had not put your efforts to launch the Thar.
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Old 14th June 2013, 09:33   #373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post

But the reality is that right now there is no other options. If you think the Gurkha is a solution, please test drive and come back to this thread. I had pinned my hopes on the Gurkha and was severely disappointed.
SO true

Quote:
The problem however is that the suspension, steering, axles etc are the weak link in the armour and when an inexperienced off-road driver powers his way out of an obstacle, he is essentially starting down the path of breaking axles, steering & suspension.
Lets be fair.

# No reports of SFRA (rear axle) breakdowns yet, at least to my knowledge. Even I had serious doubts over it & will certainly prefer FFRA. But again facts will be facts

# Front Axle & rod end breakage has been reported numerous times, truth.

# Front suspension, what is actually happening? are there any reported problems ? & whats the nature of the problems?

Apart from all this, anyone really tried to off road the CRDe without the front anti roll bar ? I think worth trying. Absence of it will severly compromise its road manners though .

Quote:
. It will take you through reasonable off-road trails without any major damage and reliably and comfortable take you to the office back and forth every day.
I expect much more than that. The chassis & related build quality is at par with the 540 & equally match with any 550.

# But to be fair I reserve my doubts wrt the front drive shafts & as per me thats going to be the only weak link in the whole thing.

Quote:
So to sum it up, ===
You are almost there. agree to most of it.

Sudarshan
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Old 14th June 2013, 10:34   #374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
WRONG , ohh come on be fair, throw those glasses & taste it. And once you do there is no turning back I bet
Thanks Sudharshan, but tastes differ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
# But to be fair I reserve my doubts wrt the front drive shafts & as per me thats going to be the only weak link in the whole thing.

You are almost there. agree to most of it.

Sudarshan

What will a person do in a trail if the drive shafts fail?

And I completely disagree with the highway manners and the steering response of the THAR CRDe. Anything above 100 and one is asking for trouble.

As pointed out, the suspension and the steering are the current major negatives, BUT, one can live with it if they understand the limitations.
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Old 14th June 2013, 10:51   #375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post
Thanks Sudharshan, but tastes differ
Ahh come on, lets do it together , can we ?? ask Arka JEE ?


Quote:
What will a person do in a trail if the drive shafts fail?
Snow chains on rear, some one from gods own country was asking for it, was that for the Thar ? .

Jokes apart but the objections have settled to driveshafts , acceptable, I agree. But yet to experience myself.

Quote:
And I completely disagree with the highway manners and the steering response of the THAR CRDe. Anything above 100 and one is asking for trouble.
Oh, that happens in a Esteem too. But ok, what Indian made Jeep/SUV does that in a stricter sense ?

But believe me I did not have any problems at 120 on E-way, honest & not being a fan boy.

Quote:
As pointed out, the suspension and the steering are the current major negatives, BUT, one can live with it if they understand the limitations.
Steering IS good except the upper body mounting that shakes.

Sudarshan
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