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Old 16th June 2013, 19:46   #391
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by headers View Post
Please start a thread as you desire.

Again 10 lakhs is a high price for a vehicle that one wants to use offroad and I meant serious OTR.

The duster is also over priced if one compares features, but its ride and handling, completely over shadow its lack of niceties.

And yes, the traditional MM 5?0 shape is doing the sales for the Thar

Edit: doubt anyone troubling DB at all
When we talk of 10L on road price we are including
. Road Tax ~ 15%
. Insurance ~ 5%
. Excise (on both finished vehicle and components) ~ 20%
. Warranty ???

All of us want an inexpensive vehicle. When we rebuild an army surplus vehicle none of these costs come in, hence the perception that you can get an Inexpensive 4x4 vehicle.

By the same logic I can get a 15+ year old M800/Alto/Zen for 50k in Delhi, get it repaired and have a perfectly fine vehicle for 1.5L. Does that mean that no one should get a new Alto? Or does that make a new Alto an outrageously priced vehicle?

In my opinion, if MM540/550 were offered from factory today, it would cost as much as the Thar if not more.

Hence I find no reason to buy Thar at its current price as that is what it costs. That it does not perform as well as the Army Surplus vehicles has more to do with the design of Thar for its target audience - highway cruisers with moderate off roading capability (definitely not for hardcore 4x4 enthusiasts).
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Old 17th June 2013, 08:02   #392
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In my opinion, if MM540/550 were offered from factory today, it would cost as much as the Thar if not more.
New Jeeps were never cheap, it was some 150 K for a MM 540 2wd (soft top) on road at Pune in 1989. 118 NE was costing the same at that time. That car (118) was considered as premium those days .


Sudarshan

Last edited by Sudarshan : 17th June 2013 at 08:04.
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Old 17th June 2013, 08:31   #393
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by Aroy View Post
By the same logic I can get a 15+ year old M800/Alto/Zen for 50k in Delhi, get it repaired and have a perfectly fine vehicle for 1.5L. Does that mean that no one should get a new Alto? Or does that make a new Alto an outrageously priced vehicle?

In my opinion, if MM540/550 were offered from factory today, it would cost as much as the Thar if not more.

Hence I find no reason to buy Thar at its current price as that is what it costs. That it does not perform as well as the Army Surplus vehicles has more to do with the design of Thar for its target audience - highway cruisers with moderate off roading capability (definitely not for hardcore 4x4 enthusiasts).
bang on Roy saab.

That is exactly my perspective. Except there's no money for two highway rides, and the wifey isnt impressed with the thar as our only vehicle.
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Old 17th June 2013, 11:26   #394
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by vivekjayasheel View Post
Dear DB, if this hasn't been done already, you should make a comprehensive post that tells people how to convert their Thar into MH01-V521. Heck then even I'll go for one. This would be more useful to owners than a CMVR post that explains why a lot of stuff COULDN'T be done to the vehicle.
Dear Vivek - I cannot share this information on an open forum. It is not correct, so please understand.

Anyways, the result was demonstrated, and I have said umpteen number of times on this forum also, please look at the specifications of other M&M models including Scorpio and Bolero VLX, you will get all the answers. Everything that I used in MH01V521 is in production on some model or the other. Please remember, reliability of design was never compromized by utilizing well proven aggregates and systems!

It is a common sense meccano puzzle, you need to think coolly and just put the pieces together, that's all! I am amazed and quite amused that nobody has done it so far!

I am posting two photographs of the first Thar CRDe prototype "mule" in "Scorpio guise" (this was known as "my" Scorpio, the time is May 2008), the vehicle on which I did all experiments to make MH01V521! Have a look! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
Attached Images
  
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Old 17th June 2013, 12:40   #395
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Dhabar Bhai where do I have the time, inclination and intent to bang my head against Mahindra Corporate team, I have befriended a few service engineers here in Gurgaonand get my work done.

After examining all pros and cons I have met my India solution till I am here for about two to maximum three more years.

Off road trips - Take the Bolero and MM 550 together. Sit in the Bolero drive the MM 550 off road when required. This is exactly what I did yesterday, my elder brother and me drove the Bolero, Jeep following us. During a very muddy section full of slush I got into the MM 550 leaving the Bolero behind, finished our agenda and came back to the Bolero.

If I wish to have an Ice Cream after dinner my personal car is my Scorpio VLX 4WD, I drive it personally, no driver is allowed to touch it and I love driving it around although must say I have not driven it for three weeks almost.

Last edited by desertfox : 17th June 2013 at 12:41.
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Old 17th June 2013, 17:50   #396
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear Salil (Trojan) - oh my God, this is too original and too good! I am eagerly looking forward to it. It will very interesting to watch the conversations that poor "Desertfox" (God help him!) will try to have with the "Corporate Slyfoxes"!
Thanks Sir, I know where you're coming from, but I think the existing customers should definitely take this seriously and compile their common issues. A lot of people seem unhappy with various aspects of the vehicle, and I feel working in that direction would help them in some way at least.
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Old 18th June 2013, 08:07   #397
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post

It is a common sense meccano puzzle, you need to think coolly and just put the pieces together, that's all! I am amazed and quite amused that nobody has done it so far!
Well, I suppose the 2.5L Thar motor could be returned to the specs of the 2.6 Scorpio motor from which its derived, 'ay?
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Old 18th June 2013, 12:34   #398
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

I was doing a comparision on the gold standard last night.

1978 gold price - Rs. 70 per gram
2013 gold price - Rs. 2900 per gram

A Mahindra jeep in 1978 was sold for Rs. 30,000 odd.

By this standard a vehicle should cost Rs. 12 lakh 40,000 odd.
About the price of a Corolla in India ! Just some food for thought.
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Old 18th June 2013, 17:05   #399
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear Vivek - I cannot share this information on an open forum. It is not correct, so please understand.

Anyways, the result was demonstrated, and I have said umpteen number of times on this forum also, please look at the specifications of other M&M models including Scorpio and Bolero VLX, you will get all the answers. Everything that I used in MH01V521 is in production on some model or the other. Please remember, reliability of design was never compromized by utilizing well proven aggregates and systems!

It is a common sense meccano puzzle, you need to think coolly and just put the pieces together, that's all! I am amazed and quite amused that nobody has done it so far!

I am posting two photographs of the first Thar CRDe prototype "mule" in "Scorpio guise" (this was known as "my" Scorpio, the time is May 2008), the vehicle on which I did all experiments to make MH01V521! Have a look! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
Dear BD,
I cannot help, but point out an item of interest here.

In another thread of yours, you have mentioned this

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ve...ar-crde-4.html (A Biker to a Jeeper - Mahindra Thar Crde)

"the flanges were from the Sumo 4WD, , the fasteners were borrowed from the Nasik die shop tool crib due to a superior grade required to take the shock loads during the quick clutch engagements required to pass through the stages. The quality and quantity of sealant used was also similarly controlled. Ironic, isn't it? Well, that's how detailed we need to go into, when we do "Engineering Prototyping". I hope people understand."

and here you are pointing towards mahindra line up for clues & piece the puzzle.

what else, ay ?

not to forget that you possibly found a tata derived product more reliable than mahindra to the extent where a competitor derived product was used to showcase/prove an engineering prototype !

nice.
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Old 19th June 2013, 10:11   #400
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Dear BD, I cannot help, but point out an item of interest here - 1. "the flanges were from the Sumo 4WD", 2. and here you are pointing towards mahindra line up for clues & piece the puzzle.
Dear pvrajan - as usual I have divided your question into two parts. Answers are as follows:

1. No sweat, instead of developing a flange and wasting time, I picked out what was readily available in production. Flange, bolts, sealant picked up, work done within 3 hours! After all, the front axle assembly supply vendor is the same in any case, so engineering is already done. We do such things in prototyping everyday! I was quite surprised to point out to a quite learned forum that the economy model of the other vehicle uses flange! PRODUCT CLARITY, my friend!

2. Obviously I will point to other M&M models because that is how the vehicle is derived! So?

Please try and enter the mind of a hard-core product engineer, only then you will appreciate what I am talking about. I trust you will understand and appreciate.

Dear Ken - why tune the 2.5 to 2.6 parameters? Go a step ahead. You got it? . Now get all the "others"! Its a meccano my friend! ay?

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 19th June 2013, 10:27   #401
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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[b][u]1. No sweat, instead of developing a flange and wasting time, I picked out what was readily available in production. Flange, bolts, sealant picked up, work done within 3 hours!
....And why waste time, energy and money in re-inventing the wheel. It is wiser to use them to develop the products that are already there.
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Old 19th June 2013, 10:37   #402
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Dear Desertfox,
How do you rate the new Gurkha vis a vis the Thar ?
Does that vehicle in its new avataar still pose hurdles towards 'peace of mind' ownership ?
Regards,
Harsh.
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Old 19th June 2013, 11:00   #403
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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And why waste time, energy and money in re-inventing the wheel. It is wiser to use them to develop the products that are already there.
Dear Sourabhzen - you have realized it, understood it and posted your reply within 16 minutes, great. Now read this:

In order to "test the system", I had actually started "flange development activity". If I remember correctly, wrong drawing was made (15mm instead of 22mm axial dimension, bolts would have broken (but DFMEA "meeting" took place), after "correction", it went up and down the rigmorale of "tool development (broach)" for almost one and a half years and when "parts" were required for "field trials" (whatever that means - what field trial can be deadlier than EXAMM I wonder!), the whole thing came to a head! The vendor could have just picked up and given the part! Classically funny, naa! How many examples you want? .

Dear Ken - so if Thar free wheeling hub gives you a problem, you know what to do! ay? Engine - done! Hubs - done! Next - your gradability issue! Will you make a "red" 521 for me one day? You can make, because you are willing to listen and discuss, so thank you, I bow before you! .

Dear all - process adherence is imperative and must be followed for maintaining discipline, but the content inside the process must be absolutely correct first! There is no point in doing the incorrect thing perfectly. To decide what to do as correct is an executive decision, only human brain can assure this, presentations don't work here!

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 19th June 2013, 11:24   #404
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Mahindra should start an "upgrade package" for converting normal Thars into 521. Just think of all the business possibilities, DB! And this would be something that would actually sell to hard-core offroaders instead of the silly tomb-raider-wannabe cosmetic kits...
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Old 19th June 2013, 11:36   #405
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by HarshD View Post
Dear Desertfox,
How do you rate the new Gurkha vis a vis the Thar ?
Does that vehicle in its new avataar still pose hurdles towards 'peace of mind' ownership ?
Regards,
Harsh.
Even this one - The new Girkha has its shortcomings in terms of poor steering wheel position, crude finish, poor AC, nothing great to cheer about. See the forums threads for detailed reports.
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