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Old 8th May 2013, 12:34   #31
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
Last time I checked, Detroit did not sell new Jeeps for $15,000 with close to 40% of that price accounting for taxes and duties.

You get what you pay for.
A basic Jeep Wrangler JK with diff locks and Solid axle coil spring suspension costs around 23000$
That comes to 12.5 Lakh rupees.
Cost before tax would be max 11 lakh rupees due to lower tax.

Now lets take an ex factor price of 11 lakh in India

After Road tax, Excise and VAT you are looking at atleast 6 lakhs to the govt.
So on road price of such a vehicle would be atleast 17 lakhs in India.

A thar costs 9L on road in Delhi. Half the effective price of a Jeep Wrangler.

Even if a Thar had solid axle, coil spring with diff locks, snorkel and 33 inch tires retailing at 12 lakhs(JK price), its sales would be around 200 units a month max.
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Old 8th May 2013, 12:38   #32
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
Last time I checked, Detroit did not sell new Jeeps for $15,000 with close to 40% of that price accounting for taxes and duties.

You get what you pay for.
Actually, you'd be quite surprised at what you can get for $15k outside of India.

If only car prices could be determined by simple arithmetic.

Amazing that M&M was able to squeeze out monies to buy software companies and even an aircraft company with such a low profit margin.

Cheers
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Old 8th May 2013, 15:37   #33
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by gthang View Post
On that note, was wondering a few things about the Thar. Doubt if will get truthful responses, but still:

1. When did the export version of Thar hit M&M product line?
2. How long did it take between launch of export Thar and Indian Thar?
2. Which team developed the export version of Thar?
3. How much is different from an export Thar and Indian Thar other than RHD?
4. What components of Indian Thar was difficult to push through management?

Actually, doing good work might not be enough. Professional ethics also might be very important. Cheers.
Dear gthang - thank you for asking four correct questions. Answers are as follows:

1. Export from December 2009, domestic from 21 December 2010.
2. 1 year.
3. Same team.
4. The whole vehicle. .
+ 5. The answer to your last paragraph is: .

This is one of the best answers that I have ever given on TeamBHP. "Yippee, I'm lovin' it"! Thank you gthang.

Dear vivekgk - thank you for summing up so well. Allow me to make one small change though, Thar CRDe is not a compromise. It is exactly what we as a team had always expected it to be!

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

Last edited by DHABHAR.BEHRAM : 8th May 2013 at 15:37. Reason: add info
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Old 8th May 2013, 17:01   #34
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear gthang - thank you for asking four correct questions. Answers are as follows:

1. Export from December 2009, domestic from 21 December 2010.
2. 1 year.
3. Same team.
4. The whole vehicle. .
+ 5. The answer to your last paragraph is: .


Behram Dhabhar
If I am to understand your response correctly, a whole new vehicle, which uncannily looks like the original, was developed by your team for the Indian market within one year??

In this day and age, "Truth" seems to have a whole new meaning.

Cheers
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Old 8th May 2013, 18:03   #35
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Corporate and individual ethics are completely different ballgames. I am pretty sure if Behram-ji owned M&M or was even given free rein to build a real jeep, the Thar would have been a completely different beast.

What I found a little unsavory on part of the corporate side of things was (basically a rant to Anand Mahindra and/or the forces that be):
1) Don't have advertising tag-lines like "Hates Thar" when the best performance of your product is on tar only It's misleading. Just because we don't live in a litigatory society like America's where you can get yourself sued broke for even minimal deviation from the truth doesn't mean you go crazy on the advertising.

2) Don't be so greedy that you cobble together a vehicle from a parts bin of other existing products in your line-up and sell it at an exorbitant price by labeling it a lifestyle vehicle just because nothing else in the market LOOKS as good. Make it a true base platform that a poser like me can buy and the offroader-that-i-hope-to-eventually-evolve-into can build upon.

3) CMVR, K-sections, bad AC performance because of ill-fitting soft-top etc. is not an end-consumer's headache. Whether enthusiast or poser, (s)he expects to buy an awesome, trouble-free product that is intrinsically engineered well, for the money (s)he spends. If Maruti and others have been doing this for decades, Mahindra should too. I consider myself a poser and the perfect target-segment for the Thar (I love its looks, i don't care about articulation, and I've done the "pretend to be a rally driver and make mud donuts on your favorite b-road" gypsy thing in my college days) but even I wouldn't buy a Thar because I know for sure that when i enter a showroom where the chief CR guy tells me that this is mahindra's first 4-cylinder product I can only imagine what horrors lie in wait when it comes to repair or service the vehicle, leave alone alter it with overpriced factory parts that don't fit.

4) It's a sad state of affairs when your export product is disproportionately superior to your identical domestic-market one. Reminds me of the Royal Enfield fiasco, where they shoved a second spark plug into the head instead of an oxygen sensor that is present on the export model (that would have cost them just 7000 bucks extra on a bike that costs more than 1.5 lakhs) and left everyone wondering why the new models were actually SLOWER than the brit-shit ones. Won't even get into the drama caused by the bobbit wheels, LOL, bad handling, dangerous (lack of) straight-line stability and parts scraping notwithstanding.

5) Slightly off-topic but Manveet-ji, aap jaison ko "price-point" ki baatei karnaa shobha nahi deta I know you will be one of India's first Wrangler customers and I look forward to reading a review from you because IMHO you write well.

Last edited by Technocrat : 13th May 2013 at 21:37. Reason: Please refrain from using bad language, it has been corrected this time. Thanks
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Old 8th May 2013, 19:45   #36
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by gthang View Post
If I am to understand your response correctly, a whole new vehicle, which uncannily looks like the original, was developed by your team for the Indian market within one year?? In this day and age, "Truth" seems to have a whole new meaning. Cheers
Dear gthang - I have not understood your above statement at all, please clarify. In export, Thar is homologated in a different category as compared to domestic. By law, it needs a mesh behind the rear seat, which is not there in domestic.

Dear all - I suggest, please read EEC homologation norms. Our world as product engineers is completely removed from your world as customers. In the interest of everybody, this linkage must happen! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 8th May 2013, 19:55   #37
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Desert fox,
You have been successful in bringing some life to lifeless 4x4 thread after a long time. Little did I imagined that it would be a Thar bashing thread again! :-)

I respect your opinion. I am not here to defend Thar but few points to ponder upon-
1. NIOC and Gerrari have many many THAR CRDe's and not rebuilt 550/540's. I presume all are not sissies who bought them!

2. THAR CRDe's sell many fold into personal off-road space compared to the hardy THAR DI. Just FYI.

3. I know people who have sold their old 550/540 and Di's to buy a THAR CRDe for their personal use. Please try to understand from few of them why?

4. THAR CRDe has proved itself in Mahindra off-road trophy where in top off-road drivers from various parts of the country put them to test. They were not new! I am not even talking about vehicles being used by multiple driver's in expeditions and great escapes.

5. No offense, we off-road more than any body in this forum in the entire year- that's our job! All the action shots that you see are that of THAR CRDe.

Having said that THAR CRDe is not perfect and I know it. But I firmly believe that it delivers it core promise- 'ability to take people anywhere!'

There are some facts about purchase behavior-
1. Some people like building their own 4x4. They will never buy new or like a new vehicle. They build vehicle for themselves and we build vehicles to common tastes.

2. Traditionalists will never accept new is better then the old. For them IDI was better then the Di, then DI N.A engines were better than the Di turbo ones and now Turbo engines are better than the CRDI ones.

3. A lot depends on affordability and it's a fact!

For those waiting for Jeep wrangler, lets see how it is priced and will also see how many would buy it and put it to off-road torture like what they put THAR or Gypsy to. A 10 lakh plus vehicle is never put to torture like what Thar & Gypsy go through, a fact again!

For people who may have got confused whether to buy a new Thar or not here is the synopsis-

1. Know about jeeps, gear ratio's, love spending time in scrap yard, meeting mechanics often, have lot of time, money and patience- build your own unique 4x4, don't even look at buying a new 4x4 of any brand. It will never satisfy you.

2. You are on budget, have some background on Mahindra 4x4's, don't like to visit road side mechanics and don't have fancy ideas of using one vehicle for all your needs, like to buy reliable version of old 550, have the tendency to break the vehicle off-road- buy THAR DI 4x4.

3. Need an all rounder and budget is not an issue, intend to do fair share of upgrades suiting individual tastes, in need of single driven personal 4x4 that stands out- buy THAR CRDe

At the end one must know what he wants! If you are looking for an SUV comfort in THAR, you will never find it. Set your expectations clear and you will be happy.

Last edited by vinod_nookala : 8th May 2013 at 20:15.
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Old 8th May 2013, 20:06   #38
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To be honest I almost bought the thar instead of my storme. Loved the ride quality and the basic car. But I realized that by the time I modify it and make it actually fun (personal opinion), I'd have spent more than 10-11 lakhs, and compromised significantly on reliability and safety by making mods.

Also the thar was TOO crude. And not frugal. Crude. The duster is frugal. I love the duster.

I just realized that it wasn't worth the money although at 1-1.5L less (or with some basic refinement), would have bought it in a heart beat.
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Old 8th May 2013, 20:09   #39
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by vivekgk View Post
It is something that someone who usually drives a sedan/hatch can switch over to without having to make too many sacrifices, at a somewhat reasonable price.

If you're the sort who is used to driving a hatch/sedan but has the habit of looking longingly at jeeps and sighing, then the Thar is for you. It's the jeep to buy if you can only have one automobile.
Dear Vivek,
My sincere request to you would be to drive the Thar for some time.
And i would agree with your above statement if and only IF your family size is you + 1 (a total of 2).
If your family size is more than 2, i just do not see how the Thar could be your hatch/sedan replacement.
Cheers,
Deepak

PS: I've tried convincing my folks by having the Thar for more than a week and have failed.
PPS: I am not even talking about those abysmal brakes and lack of essential safety features.
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Old 8th May 2013, 21:06   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post

For people who may have got confused whether to buy a new Thar or not here is the synopsis-
1. Know about jeeps, gear ratio's, love spending time in scrap yard, meeting mechanics often, have lot of time, money and patience- build your own unique 4x4, don't even look at buying a new 4x4 of any brand. It will never satisfy you.

2. You are on budget, have some background on Mahindra 4x4's, don't like to visit road side mechanics and don't have fancy ideas of using one vehicle for all your needs, like to buy reliable version of old 550, have the tendency to break the vehicle off-road- buy THAR DI 4x4.

3. Need an all rounder and budget is not an issue, intend to do fair share of upgrades suiting individual tastes, in need of single driven personal 4x4 that stands out- buy THAR CRDe

At the end one must know what he wants! If you are looking for an SUV comfort in THAR, you will never find it. Set your expectations clear and you will be happy.
I think this synopsis is probably the most succinct view of the customer base and their needs. Of course, there are other issues about fit and finish and safety that people don't expect of a 8L Thar, but apart from that, this is probably it. Beyond academic discussions, I see little value in belonging to group 1 and even bothering about what is good and what's not for groups 2 and 3 as per Vinod's segmentation.
The truth about the Thar and other vehicles is well documented across the forum and if people still go ahead and buy it, then it's their choice and their money.

Cheers,
Adi
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Old 8th May 2013, 23:43   #41
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Dear Vinod - thank you for your factual response to the absolutely irrelevant bashing of the vehicle.

I think today the time has come to put the facts as they exist. We (you, me, our core team) have put our life, heart and soul into this vehicle. For us, it was much more than just a job! Therefore, at least I will not keep quiet if people keep on bashing the vehicle for no fault of ours or of the vehicle. I have infinite patience so I will keep on explaining our constraints countless times, hoping that people understand, many do also but the bogey keeps on coming back! I am finally taking the liberty of posting the photographs of the first prize Mahindra Rise award that we as Thar team won on 15 April 2011 in Mumbai.

Dear all - please see the photographs! So guys, please don't waste your time bashing the vehicle, use your power where you need to use it! I need not say anything more, a picture is worth more than a thousand words! .

Please read what Vinod has written, again and again and again. This vehicle has won numerous awards and accolades, it would not have won if it was not really good. When I say that it runs rings around other things, I mean it! And by the way, even the Wrangler will not be able to recreate the magic of this timeless shape, immortalized by that 7 slat grille, let it come! Oh come on now!

You need much more than a Wrangler to really crack this market segment! . Thar was just the first step!

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Last edited by DHABHAR.BEHRAM : 8th May 2013 at 23:47.
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Old 9th May 2013, 02:47   #42
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Post The whining goes on....

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post
I am not here to defend Thar but few points to ponder upon-
----
Well said Vinod !

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Therefore, at least I will not keep quiet if people keep on bashing the vehicle for no fault of ours or of the vehicle. I have infinite patience so I will keep on explaining our constraints countless times, hoping that people understand, many do also but the bogey keeps on coming back!
Dhabhar Sir, the interest created by Thar is quite evident in TBHP as well. See the number of threads, from threads on test drives, ownership reviews, confusion on buying, modifications, hard tops, problems, and now why I won't buy a Thar ! Heck, even the thread on Gurkha has more discussions going on the Thar rather than the product itself, what more can you ask for?

These days, when I see a Thar thread, I get my packet of popcorn ready and hope that something new is discussed. Alas, I realize, that is not to be. It goes on and on and on. Threads like these have become a platform to ridicule others, ask about professional ethics and gain brownie points (thanks) from onlooking users. Sometimes, I feel it is a case of grapes gone sour.

We all know it is not perfect, it has its deficiencies and work needs to be done (is being done I heard) on different fronts, there is no denying this fact. In the end, it doesn't matter if some people like it, or despise it, this thing is selling, and it is not that bad as shown out to be.

Reminds me of something I read on Gearheads some time back, I am quoting here the post of 007 [all credits to him for the quoted post below]

Quote:
simple test to distinguish between a fan and a fanboy:

A *fan* will like something, support it, root for it but will also acknowledge it graciously that other stuff has every right to be equally good or better.

A *fanboy* recognizes nothing but his own little pile of s**t. He will move mountains to prove the fact that what he endorses is the best and has no equal and will finally pronounce that anybody who disagrees with him is a cretin.

A fan is an enthusiast. A fanboy is an evangelist.
You have a lot of patience to reply to all such comments Sir, I left it long time back !

Spike
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Old 9th May 2013, 03:09   #43
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post

We all know it is not perfect, it has its deficiencies and work needs to be done (is being done I heard) on different fronts, there is no denying this fact. In the end, it doesn't matter if some people like it, or despise it, this thing is selling, and it is not that bad as shown out to be.
^^Case of "Foot in Mouth"?

From the way the Thar is defended, and your above definition, you might fall under the "Fanboy" category.

Cheers.
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Old 9th May 2013, 03:35   #44
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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^^Case of "Foot in Mouth"?

From the way the Thar is defended, and your above definition, you might fall under the "Fanboy" category.

Cheers.
Hahaha, not really ! You sure have good sense of humor, I was expecting such a response. I have never said it is perfect or the best, I still admit there is improvement. It is up to you to decide who falls where after reading the definition properly.

Anyways, I will not argue more on this with you (it reminds me of a Skoda thread I read sometime back). I have put across what I had wanted to here, now I leave, as I would like to see this thread remain open unlike -
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/technical-stuff/112863-dsg-mechatronics-failures-we-driving-them-wrongly-10.html#post2630319 (DSG Mechatronics Failures: Are we driving them wrongly?)

Spike

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Old 9th May 2013, 09:00   #45
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Let me put another view.

I have been out on many OTR's and the level of "experience" is varied. Price point plays important part in people bringing their vehicle to OTR's. Leaving aside some individual who may even bring a Cayenne to an OTR - though I have known of only one guy doing a soft off roading with one in Delhi. I have been using my GV often enough in OTR's and trail driving. But ask that from most of the expensive SUV owners - they will not for risk of scratching the vehicle.


For most a compromise is the best option. THAR and GYPSY stand out here.

Yes after you acquire it and build some skill sets you can then go in and customize your vehicle. Change ratios, put diff locks and do this all for as much as your pocket allows.

During recent NIOC OTR using HT tread I was able to climb couple of slopes where heavily shod MT tyres - both on Thar's - were not able to make it. So vehicle, system and driving all matters.

On the other hand in few groups around North I know the vehicles on OTR are not able to make it back without tow. Yes lovely vehicles with oodles of handling to impress on OTR but fall wayside when commuting. I have twice come out of OTR in Delhi and proceeded to a commute of 250 plus kms - without even a break but for some refreshments. Thar gives me that confidence.

But biggest confidence is from experience and matter of saying "NO" if I deem the obstacle will harm my vehicle.

Lastly Thar (and the team) has introduced the community to OTR's and as the community grows other manufacturers will take note and introduce some more machines. From barely two three people I have seen OTR community grow to fifty plus vehicles in Chandigarh in matter of one year with 75% of new Thar's.

Hope.

Last edited by sudev : 9th May 2013 at 09:04.
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