Go Back   Team-BHP > Buckle Up > 4x4 & Off-Roading > 4x4 Vehicles


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 22nd July 2013, 15:12   #586
BHPian
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Bombay
Posts: 997
Thanked: 1,027 Times
Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

I'm repeating myself for the nth time on this thread by saying that Mahindra is taking advantage of gullible customers who have no choice for a Jeep type 4x4 by handing them a substandard quality product like Thar.

All they have done is took the old dies of MM540 and badged it as Thar and selling it. Incase of Thar DI they haven't even bothered to carry out any basic modifications leave aside safety. As they know most of the people buying a Thar DI apart from DI engine enthusiasts will be rural people who don't bother about such things. But as a company Mahindra should have shown some integrity while including some basic safety features. I read numerous posts which says about inadequate braking power and vehicle rolling on its own inspite of applied handbrake. All this in the 21st century automotive world is day light robbery and shows the company's attitude towards the customers/buyers apathy.

Coming to Thar Crde all they have done is plonked in the scorpio crde engine which makes the vehicle run like a horse but gives it a stopping/braking power of a donkey. Interior fit and finish the less said the better leave aside the pathetic center console plastic, rattling door handles and rickety soft top, even the AC that they have fitted looks like a cheap aftermarket job and not a factory fitted one. Also there is a thread on how the Thar's wiper blade hits the windshield rubber beading while wiping, it reminds of the infamous Mumbai Autorickshaw whose wiper operates in the same manner. All this for above 8.5 lakhs is a joke and an insult to the iconic 4X4 Jeep brand. As a company Mahindra is busy in filling its pockets but give no two hoot to customer satisfaction and safety. Coming back to competition unfortunately Mahindra has ready access to the iconic Jeep model as they have assembling them since last 6 decades (CJ3b, Jeep Kaiser, etc.) no other Indian manufacturer has access to these models so Mahindra is taking full advantage of the situation and delivering half baked product to the desperate customers/enthusiasts hungry for a factory made Jeep, which looks and feels not more than a Jugaad Jeep we get from garages and workhops, infact some garages/workshop does a better job than what Mahindra is doing. This is a fact.

Last edited by navin_v8 : 22nd July 2013 at 15:21. Reason: Added additional information.
navin_v8 is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 22nd July 2013, 15:49   #587
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 139
Thanked: 58 Times
Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin_v8 View Post
.. Mahindra has ready access to the iconic Jeep model as they have assembling them since last 6 decades (CJ3b, Jeep Kaiser, etc.)..
They got the CJ-5ish dies from Ssangyong Korando/ Kia IIRC, so they're not even Kaiser dies - they're rips off of the iconic CJ-5 - essentially knock-offs

Panasonic vs. Panasoanic

Their closest attempt at vehicle design is the Bolero, and their design sensibilities overwhelmingly lean towards more plastic cladding.
lugnut is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 22nd July 2013, 16:07   #588
Senior - BHPian
 
desertfox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Gurgaon, Delhi NCR
Posts: 1,186
Thanked: 522 Times
Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
Hmmnn , thats private sale I guess atleast the CRDe





The Safari & Scorpio 4x4s particularly, 100 units look unlikely



Is it less problematic than a Thar CRDe ?



I am OK with that

Despite all the Falling nut bolts etc , it is selling in a good %. It has competition or not, fact is a fact.

Sudarshan
Gurkha being less problimatic from the factory works - but why people dont like it, crude, steering position terrible, dashboard layout impractical, after sales service, very limited dealerships.
desertfox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2013, 09:47   #589
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Pune
Posts: 1,201
Thanked: 821 Times
Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin_v8 View Post
I'm repeating myself for the nth time on this thread by saying that Mahindra is taking advantage of gullible customers who have no choice for a Jeep type 4x4 by handing them a substandard quality product like Thar.
Thats fairly OK , can be one's opinion.

Quote:
All they have done is took the old dies of MM540 and badged it as Thar and selling it..
But this is bit too much . Are you sure about what you are saying ?

Have you personally inspected & checked the differences between the MM 540 & Thar (both models) ? On one to one basis ?

Not being personal & bias with anyone is this forums moto . We need to be fair where its required.


I have seen both 540 & CRDe rolling chassis & I know the difference .

Sudarshan

Last edited by Sudarshan : 23rd July 2013 at 09:50.
Sudarshan is offline   (3) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2013, 10:46   #590
Senior - BHPian
 
desertfox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Gurgaon, Delhi NCR
Posts: 1,186
Thanked: 522 Times
Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Engine is different, suspension different, gearbox is of the Scorpio, Bolero Dashboard, chassis is NGCS, radiator and AC system different / did not exist, canopy different type and of a different material, painwork very different ( CRD e ) but still the package is incomplete, that is the truth.
desertfox is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2013, 10:53   #591
Senior - BHPian
 
sourabhzen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: GURGAON
Posts: 1,514
Thanked: 1,255 Times
Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
Thats fairly OK , can be one's opinion
No offence, but it will be helpful if you write down your opinion too, if you do not agree with navin_v8.
sourabhzen is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2013, 11:08   #592
BHPian
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Bombay
Posts: 997
Thanked: 1,027 Times
Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

It's not an opinion it is a fact and let's face it instead of being in denial. A vehicle flying off shelves doesn't mean that it is good quality incase of Thar it is flying off the shelves because it has no competition whatsoever either from the domestic or foreign manufacturers. If Government of India's ridiculous policy is overcome for foreign products and the foreign manufacturers start selling their products here at competetive prices then everyone will know what is what, and how they are paying through their nose for a crude and substandard quality product.

I am sure about what I am saying because I had scrutinized the Thar onroad as well as in the showroom and much before that when they had unveiled the concept during the Autocar yearly show(in Mumbai) sometime in November 2010. I couldn't find any minor leave aside out of the box change for the Thar apart from some plastic cladding and chrome inserts that too done shabbily. I was once travelling towards Boisar and stopped at a Highway Food Mall for a break there I saw a couple of brand new Thar DI's going towards Gujarat. I went close and with the drivers permission examined the vehicle inside out and found not much difference between a MM540 and the Thar DI. Infact it looked like old wine in new bottle, the upholstery was pathetic, door inserts were rattling when opening and closing the door, door handles felt like they're gonna fall off, gear lever looked like that in a Force three wheeler, combination switch and levers looked like some 15 year old kid's school project, hell I even saw some rust spots in odd places in a brand new Thar and the color was white so I could easily spot them. The rickety softtop stuff was worse than what is found in a Mumbai autorickshaw. Coming back to Thar when I saw that in the showroom it looked like a spruced up MM540 with fair quality paint, interior not much difference from the Thar DI, AC looked like an aftermarket job, seats are even worse especially the rear seats.

When we talk about the vehicle chassis it is not just the chassis but the whole platform on which the vehicle is built maybe the Thar Crde would be different as it uses an independant front suspension unlike the Thar DI which uses the oldschool suspension. I am not even getting into the details of the interior or the infamous and inadequate brakes in the Thar. One may call these small niggles and get it done outside the showroom or DIY. But what's the point in spending 8.5 lakhs upwards and still fixing these niggles atleast minor things should be taken care before the vehicle leaves the assembly line and to top that up they have proudly put the Quality OK stickers in different places, I think putting up those Q.C. done stickers is just a formality. Ofcourse I haven't stripped off the entire vehicle to see what chassis and frame they have used but the model design looks all the same from outside. That's ok if they are using the same design but atleast add some value to your product instead of selling a crude and raw product and calling it a lifestyle vehicle.

It is like everybody was happy during the Premier Padmini and Ambassador days until Suzuki came up with their ever present 800cc model which hammered down the sales of Padmini and Ambassador. Likewise there would be a manufacturer who is closely watching this segment and will offer something which will scare the living daylights out of the likes of Mahindra Thar. This situation will be similar to how KTM has offered us the Duke 390 at mouth watering price. But till then Mahindra can have a gala of time selling its substandard quality product like Thar and people falling for it as there is no other option. What an irony?

Last edited by navin_v8 : 23rd July 2013 at 11:13. Reason: Grammar Mistake
navin_v8 is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2013, 11:39   #593
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Delhi
Posts: 2,096
Thanked: 978 Times
Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

That is the problem. There is no other competitor at that price point, either local of foreign. One would have thought that at least Tata would bring out a competing model.

So in a nutshell there must be some thing wrong with the market if there is only a single offering. At least in the days of Ambassadors there was Fiat and Standard.

Let us hope that some manufacturer would do a Maruti on Thar and we have a modern diesel SWB 4x4 at 5L, till then Thar rules.
Aroy is offline   (3) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2013, 11:50   #594
BHPian
 
cpbopanna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 551
Thanked: 769 Times
Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

I feel the subject has been discussed ad nauseum and has had more than its fair share of intense rhetoric!

Probably it is high time we started a new thread - "Why I won't buy a second Thar".

Current owners/users can then share their perspective and battle on the pros and cons, based on their actual experiences!

Rajith may be first contributor to the new thread!

Last edited by cpbopanna : 23rd July 2013 at 11:54. Reason: Inclusion
cpbopanna is offline   (3) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2013, 12:22   #595
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Pune
Posts: 1,201
Thanked: 821 Times
Talking re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

This is a Long train ,ohh excuse me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin_v8 View Post
I am sure about what I am saying because I had scrutinized the Thar onroad as well as in the showroom and much before that when they had unveiled the concept during the Autocar yearly show(in Mumbai) sometime in November 2010. I couldn't find any minor leave aside out of the box change for the Thar apart from some plastic cladding and chrome inserts that too done shabbily. I was once travelling towards Boisar and stopped at a Highway Food Mall for a break there I saw a couple of brand new Thar DI's going towards Gujarat. I went close and with the drivers permission examined the vehicle inside out and found not much difference between a MM540 and the Thar DI. Infact it looked like old wine in new bottle, ===

When we talk about the vehicle chassis it is not just the chassis but the whole platform on which the vehicle is built maybe the Thar Crde would be different as it uses an independant front suspension unlike the Thar DI which uses the oldschool suspension.=====
Ofcourse I haven't stripped off the entire vehicle to see what chassis and frame they have used but the model design looks all the same from outside. ===
Following post can be a reply ,I dont need to repeat it thanks Desert Bhai

Quote:
Originally Posted by desertfox View Post
Engine is different, suspension different, gearbox is of the Scorpio, Bolero Dashboard, chassis is NGCS, radiator and AC system different / did not exist, canopy different type and of a different material, painwork very different ( CRD e ) but still the package is incomplete, that is the truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sourabhzen View Post
No offence, but it will be helpful if you write down your opinion too, if you do not agree with navin_v8.
Yes Sir you can see what I have already said

Check this http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ve...ml#post3148687

& then this. Do I need to say more ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
WRONG , ohh come on be fair, throw those glasses & taste it. And once you do there is no turning back I bet

Apart from jokes, this is only the half part of my thar testing. If conditions permit, will take her off road.

But I am extremely happy with its road performance, no Jeep gypsy (the built ones) can come close to it. Its Sure footed. Thanks DB Sir.



ZERO problems, but do not compare it with sedans, its a Jeep.

Now get ready for the details

# At 120 lane change was NO problem despite its horrible aerodynamic shape.It was certainly sure footed .

The monsoon hovering over head & mad cross winds (typical Maval ,western MH) beating drums on the tarp (Top). Yes the winds are crazy in that area, but the Thar was rock solid. Then I came down to 80/90 for a while & let all those Volvoes pass by, again NO shaking when they passed & tried to suck you in turbulence, ZERO effect of that where one feels a sedan pushed or pulled by the turbulence of a close by passing Volvo Bus.

#Steering is absolutely good, no Issues. Though I am not so used to the Power steering thing, I have no complaints. But wait it shakes & vibrates unlike sedans. The rubble strips (painted thick ones - used to wake the sleeping driver) do not affect the driver control nor they shift the vehicle even at 80.

# All & all the vehicle was steady, the 100 bhp engine does its Job well . I tried the old Khandala ghat very effortlessly just like the 3.5 V8 Landy I had. stock Tyers are OK & braking IS adequate for me at least.

# I am NO five star driver but 29 (official) years of driving many vehicles from trucks to tins, tells me that this is NO Ordinary vehicle assembled from the parts bin. Its much more.

If one wants to take my word positively, I bet this will be equally good for offroads too(Havent had a good long test yet except few bits & pieces)

Though the price tag of 8.32 on road Pune is Certainly NOT justified but the vehicle is certainly not a Lemon as people say.

One needs to have a fair view, enough of Sour Grapes now .

Wish me Luck to acquire one Thar please .

Sudarshan
P.S. forgot about the bad road thing, been through the Mumbai potholes,again No complaints.
Regards

Sudarshan
Sudarshan is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2013, 12:29   #596
Senior - BHPian
 
desertfox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Gurgaon, Delhi NCR
Posts: 1,186
Thanked: 522 Times
Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

The thread should be - Why I will never buy a Thar again, but for actuation of this fact, the guys who have bought it already will be stuck with it for another 3 to 5 years at least.

And every year of ownership will throw a dozen new surprises!
desertfox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th July 2013, 20:24   #597
BHPian
 
ringoism's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Himachal
Posts: 479
Thanked: 1,093 Times
Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sach.sri View Post
Will a re-map be able to help tide over the "low end torque" issue?
Doubtful, though some aftermarket tuner could do really well for himself if it turned out to be possible.

My own feeling (having owned / modified a couple turbo cars myself, with very different setups and effects, probably relate-able to the Crde question) is that the Crde's turbo itself is actually "mismatched" to engine displacement / setup. They might've sized these a bit large or set up the turbine vanes in order to both: 1) produce the top-end bhp figures that would be appealing / competitive and thus sell more units; and 2) keep the turbo from spooling up at very low revs, which would perhaps hurt fuel economy in the gentlest types of driving. Sumo Victa Turbo's / earlier Safaris very much similar to drive (downright painful unless you were REALLY pushing it hard and fast). Original Scorpio turbo 2.6 a real low-end torque-monster, and tellingly, you can hear the distinctive turbo whir even at idle. Later Crde Scorpio has more bhp and is more economical to run (both good for sales), but very sluggish and uninspiring to drive in real life situations.

Especially when you've got an intercooler introduced into the plumbing (creating much more volume to pressurize before boost is actually realized in the intake tract), you need a smallish turbo that's going to spool up real fast. If you need both response AND top-end and have the money to get it done, you do what premium manufacturers do and hang TWO smaller turbos on an engine for quick spool-up AND plenty of flow for top-end power.

I suspect the Crde would have better low-end with a different (maybe smaller) turbo and/or without the intercooler (but you'd have to turn the max. boost down if the latter was removed, hurting max. bhp figures - and maybe sales - some).

As is often the sad case, it is the marketing departments, rather than R&D staff, that often determine the technical attributes of a new vehicle. I am sure they knew exactly who would MOSTLY be buying the Thar - in truth, customers who will hardly ever see a real dirt track or a serious incline and are more into being nostalgic / fashionable. They probably underestimated the number of serious 4x4 enthusiasts who would be disappointed by it - but then, these were not the buyers who made the Thar a "success" (market-wise) for M&M, either.

-Eric
ringoism is offline   (9) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 26th July 2013, 12:40   #598
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Gurgaon
Posts: 670
Thanked: 387 Times
Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ringoism View Post
Doubtful, though some aftermarket tuner could do really well for himself if it turned out to be possible.

-Eric
Thanks Eric. This was also my feeling - but i recently got my hands on a thread where a tuner from B'lore has tuned a Skoda Rapid - and reading the thread it felt like there would be more power available across all "rev levels".

I also talked to the tuner in question - and he confirmed that post the tune, i would see higher bhp across all rev levels and also that the power gain is more "linear" and so the engine will be more "punchy"

I am not very technical wrt automobiles and that is why this Q.

BTW - the tuner in question is -- tune-o-tronics
sach.sri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th July 2013, 11:36   #599
BHPian
 
ringoism's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Himachal
Posts: 479
Thanked: 1,093 Times
Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sach.sri View Post
I also talked to the tuner in question - and he confirmed that post the tune, i would see higher bhp across all rev levels and also that the power gain is more "linear" and so the engine will be more "punchy"

BTW - the tuner in question is -- tune-o-tronics
Some real dynomometer or performance test figures or actual real-world experience would be great to see. I hope someone will take him up on this and get their Thar tuned to his spec, to everyone else's increased satisfaction and driving pleasure (if it actually works!).

-Eric
ringoism is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th July 2013, 17:52   #600
Senior - BHPian
 
DirtyDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Dharamsala
Posts: 1,781
Thanked: 694 Times
Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Eric, I think your idea of the Thar CRDe needing a small turbo for instant revs and instant response at low speeds is exactly correct. The MD3200tc has just such a turbo.

I am doubtful that any remapping can give this lump of iron the low end grunt it is missing but I might give it a try.

The other solution or partial solution has been hinted at by B.D. himself. The Thar's motor is an old Scorpio 2.6L that has been downsized via changing the stroke to 2498. So, just return the stroke back to its original 2.6L specs.

Somehow I think that is going to take more than throwing a new set of connecting rods into the motor. What, in fact, do you guys thinks it would take to restore a Thar motor to its original 2.6L shape? Is the return worth the investment?

Last edited by DirtyDan : 28th July 2013 at 18:21.
DirtyDan is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz - W221 S350 initial ownership review androdev Test-Drives & Initial Ownership Reports 164 9th August 2017 19:50
Car won't start. Guess why? A rat chewed up the fuel line supremeBaleno Technical Stuff 54 18th October 2015 13:54
Wanting to buy a XenonXT, Tata won't let me see one abhi1309 The Indian Car Scene 28 7th October 2010 15:17
Suzuki SX4 or NHC type 1 second hand EDIT: SX4 now booked - EDIT 1 -Swift VDi booked GeekSrik Hatchbacks 126 24th June 2007 12:37


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 19:47.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks