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Old 9th May 2013, 21:48   #76
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post

Could it be that the turbos had not failed, but were changed proactively? Preventive maintainence.
Interesting perspective you bring here. Desert storme has a lot of dust. Even few kms of running in dust can choke up air filters. I think the vehicles may be running with performance air filters which are not recommended to be used in such conditions, and lot of dust in the turbo can cause issues. So maybe they changed the turbos proactively?
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Old 9th May 2013, 22:20   #77
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post
As it is again proving to be a Thar bashing thread, consumers are free to choose what they want. Look at Thar for what it is and not for what it is not.
Really? I think desertfox is clearly articulating his understanding of a product's flaws, and is calling it as he's sees the Thar, based on his experiences, thus leading to 'Why he won't buy the Thar'

I am curious if the South African/European Thar has similar issues as the Indian one?
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Old 10th May 2013, 00:23   #78
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

I must say this thread is more explosive than the IPL games!

So whats the score guys? Thars Vs Others!

Guys, like Shahid said, everyone's jeep is special to him/her, so why this jhagda over Thar or Jugaad?

I dont see many buyers for JK 2.8 Ltr Diesel being launched soon, whenever its launched at 20 Big ones!

One thing i have seen is the craze for Thar is just going overboard, specially in Punjab, its simply raining Thars there.

Gurkha EOV 4x4x4, is again a Jugaad, Thar is a Jugaad, MM550 (rebuilt) is a jugaad, Gypsy has been killed, but still people rebuilt it.

We are a country of Jugaad, whether its cricket, politics, bollywood or daily life or the automobile industry of India.

Shahid is happy singh with his 550, Vinod is happy singh with Thar.

lets all be Happy Singh in his/her own Jugaad.
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Old 10th May 2013, 01:15   #79
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Default Re: Why I wont buy a Thar

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Originally Posted by wbd8779 View Post
Bottom line is that the Thar was not reliable and the only reason it finished was due to your exemplary factory support for service.
The blown turbos tale is something I have heard before from another extreme class participant. But, was that not for the XUV 500s as I think it was the case in RDH too?

In any case, why are the rally vehicles even part of this discussion? The Xtreme class ones are extremely modded, often incurring expenses that run into figures that can get one a fully rebuilt MM550, just for cost of the fancy suspension alone. And this is not limited to M&M. Even the all-conquering rally Grand Vitara is supposedly modified beyond what most of us can even dream of.

Requirements of rallies, trail driving, hardcore offroading and dune bashing are different. No stock vehicle will perform at the top of the heap in all those applications, and that too under a 10L budget.

Most of the posts in this thread have been discussed to death in the numerous other Thar threads, but for some reason we need to revisit it again and form the same conclusions. Once again, it must be a Jeeper thing, considering how nuts this is!
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Old 10th May 2013, 10:53   #80
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by Parm View Post
I must say this thread is more explosive than the IPL games! One thing I have seen is the craze for Thar is just going overboard, specially in Punjab, its simply raining Thars there.
Dear Parm - FANTASTIC! More explosion than the IPL games! It's raining Thars in Punjab! YES YES YES, FINALLY, WE DID IT! .

The people of this state and this community are the kind of people I love to interact with. These "paajis" live life "bigger than kingsize". I just love to hear the Punjabi accent, brimming with confidence! "Ho jaayega ji" and "kkkraa denge ji" are the things I just love to hear!

So let me try one sentence - "oye paaji, gaddi bhi koi chalane ki cheez hai? Jeep chalao yaar. Chak de phatte"!

SINGH IS KING!

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 10th May 2013, 11:50   #81
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Interesting perspective you bring here. Desert storme has a lot of dust. Even few kms of running in dust can choke up air filters. I think the vehicles may be running with performance air filters which are not recommended to be used in such conditions, and lot of dust in the turbo can cause issues. So maybe they changed the turbos proactively?
K & N Filters can be used in dusty conditions, say a desert rally but it must be run with a precharger and a higher cool air intake point with an isolator box. I have posted some pictures of this in one of my Prados on Khan Sultans Landcruiser Prado thread ( Shahnawaz Khan ).

There is a filter cleaner kit by K & N as well. Every night at the Biovac or whatever kind of night halt it is, the support crew need to clean the air filter or better still replace it after a days run.

But I am not sure how much money one can win in Desert Storm even to think of buildigng a team.

Say to the UAE Desert Challenge, the money spent by BMW extreme team in vehicles, travel, support, hotels, event management etc. is about 800,000 to 1.4 million dollars every year. What does a winner get here at Desert Storm ?

Last edited by desertfox : 10th May 2013 at 11:52.
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Old 10th May 2013, 12:49   #82
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Default Agent Vinod

Hi Vinod,

The MGE off-road competition offer the competitors Thar CRDe as competitor vehicles, so the TharCRDe eventually wins the event.

If you go on to say that the TharCRDe will win TPC it is optimism. But we crticize/critique the vehicle then its negativity, and bashing.

wrt to M&M off-road events they are aimed at promoting M&M vehicles and "creating" a purpose for their vehicles i.e off-road lifestyle ala MAHINDRA ADVENTURE.

Its a great initiative, but don't start believing your own lies.

If Mahindra was really into off-roading they would have promoted at least supported multi-brand off-road events.

The IFS and Rack & Pinion is a weak link which get exploited again and again off-road, it don't want to make it a "see, I told you" scene.

Either address this issue TECHNICALLY or just ignore the comments.

Do you want us to start posting pics of busted CV joints and TREs?

If you want to find solace in the fact that it is selling, then the TharCRDe is surely a winner.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 10th May 2013, 13:32   #83
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Then there are other things.
For example using a MM550 kind of solid axle system would not have made Thar a good highway handler. We all know what jeeps do when they cross 60kmph. Thar was supposed to run at 100kmph. Again, the marketing will look at sales. What 90% want trumps 10% want.
Though I am a newbie when it comes to 4WD vehicles, but still wanted to mention that my Bolero 4WD has solid axles upfront and comfortable cruises at 100kmph on highways. I dont think handling is an issue with the Bolero after driving it extensively for the past one year or so. So why should it be a problem on the Thar? The ride is harsh because of the solid axle, but that could have been taken care of with coil springs.
Another question is why does the Thar get shoddy HT tires from the factory despite being marketed as a lifestyle 4x4 vehicle. Thar with factory fitted tires are useless even in mild offroading/slushy situations.
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Old 10th May 2013, 13:58   #84
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by BlackPearl View Post
Though I am a newbie when it comes to 4WD vehicles, but still wanted to mention that my Bolero 4WD has solid axles upfront and comfortable cruises at 100kmph on highways. I dont think handling is an issue with the Bolero after driving it extensively for the past one year or so. So why should it be a problem on the Thar? The ride is harsh because of the solid axle, but that could have been taken care of with coil springs.
Another question is why does the Thar get shoddy HT tires from the factory despite being marketed as a lifestyle 4x4 vehicle. Thar with factory fitted tires are useless even in mild offroading/slushy situations.
Solid axle coil spring is not there in existing part bin.
So having such a setup will push up production costs.
Secondly, about 100kmph, I have seen people comfortable push their jeeps past 60. They say, its comfortable cruising, but as a passenger I was terrified.
There are few ladder on frame SUVs which I would call comfortable at 100kmph. Safari, Scorpio. Bolero are not when you compare them to comparable monoque setups. The Storme is comfortable till around 120.
A comfortable speed is one at which even after hitting a pothole and hitting the brakes, you are able to maintain control of the vehicle. A comfortable speed is one where if you suddenly lose control at high speed you can regain control.
For example, on the F1 track, I was doing around 190kmph in a R8. 190kmph is possible in some other normal non "sports car supercar" sedans, but at a corner, where I lost control a bit, I could regain control. In any other normal sedan comfortably cruising even at 150kmph, I would have been part of the scenery.
Bolero at 100kmph with solid axle leaf spring is boderline. Thar can probably push 110-120 without much ado, its a manageable speed. However, better design suspension on crossovers can see you sustaining 120 with confidence and not boderline.
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Old 10th May 2013, 14:08   #85
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Dont Mahindra have solid axle for all those Marshals and Bolero Pick ups they make.

it is the overall drive train system, not just the solid axle that is an issue. I have driven the Solid axle Landcruiser 80 and old Nissan Patrols with the solid axle set up at over 120 km/h constant speeds at highways for thousands of kilimeters, week after week, mile after mile. And off road these vehicles are real devils of course.

If someone doesn't want to understand then its his choice. From NIOC Gurgaon OTRs alone there have been over 15 cases of broken Tie rod ends and CV Joints in the Thar besides other mechanical failures. Ask the guys who broke them and us who towed them out.

So the equation is as follows :

MM550 + MM540 + Cj3B + CJ3A + Willys MB + Ford GPW + Gypsy + 4x4 CL340 = Thar Rescue vehicle
QED

Last edited by desertfox : 10th May 2013 at 14:11.
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Old 10th May 2013, 15:13   #86
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Default Re: Agent Vinod

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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
If you want to find solace in the fact that it is selling, then the Thar CRDe is surely a winner. Regards, Arka
Dear Arkaji - hello there after a very long time. Nobody in this world must "find solace" to seal his or her stamp on his or her success as a result of real hard and smart work! Thar CRDe is a winner all the way without trying to find solace! It's our baby and it will continue to remain so. There are customers out there, buying the vehicle without solace. That's all that matters. QED.

Dear Shahidji - its not that nobody wants to understand. That damn NEF engine is like "Dara Singh", you cannot put solid axle under it, the axle has 43mm interference with the sump. Sump will break. Chandigarh guy may do it on one vehicle (God knows what propeller shaft angles he is running), a manufacturer just cannot work like that, you need an ESO (Engineering Sign Off). Even if we had taken it up, the vehicle would still be on the drawing boards, it would have become the best excuse not to introduce it in the market, which we would never allow! Also, the value of unsprung mass would have deteriorated, affecting the handling characteristics. Now, you please try and understand. Got it Sir? Thanks!

I had driven MH01V521 "to hell and beyond and back" and never even touched the tie rods or the drive shafts, not even once! The hub flanges were from another vehicle which you all know.

Dear Vinod - go out there and win TPC, close this thing once and for all yaar!

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

(cc: Dear Pratheesh - I told you I won't keep quiet!)
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Old 10th May 2013, 15:21   #87
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Hi All,

This discussion is surely hi-revving and changing gears fast.

Don't know whether the tyre pressure is 18-20psi's or whatever, but am damn sure we are stuck in sand here.

I maybe wrong here but I don't think that the Thar as a vehicle is being branded as a hard core off-roader, or is it?

What we do with the vehicles we buy is a personal choice and to each his own.

If I want a hard core specialist off-roader or rallying or etc. then I have to modify it as per my requirements. Isn't that true for all vehicles which are used for off-roading/desert dunes/rallying etc.

Expecting a stock vehicle to perform in extreme conditions need special attention as well, this would be my guess.

And the same would hold true for even a gypsy/gurkha/whatever for that matter.

All vehicles have their own advantages/disadvantages, how we make use of it matters the most.

I may be again wrong but I don't think I have seen any other people who may have been involved with the creation of such vehicles say Gypsy/Gurkha/Whatever come forward to answer/explain anything but here we have many experienced, respected and knowledgeable people who are doing this, and are trying to help one and all, as they know that the vehicle does have some shortcoming's.
This from my point of view is service beyond expectation.

If I take a stock Grand Vitara and drive it on the harsh riverbed of the Ganges in the remotest part of the Uttar Pradesh and compare it with a MM550 which I 'built' for exactly that purpose, I think then I am expecting a little too much, right? And I should be wary and responsible for the results of my actions, true? Pray, if I manage to break some part of an imported Jeep, should we then consider that Jeep is making unreliable vehicles?

The company has provided and produced vehicles for the masses which (people) usually are no hard core off-roading customers. Off-roading vehicles would be an extremely niche market and any major company attempting it would make it extremely expensive as well, reason (Demand-Supply ratio)

I own a jeep myself, but I don't go off-roading and I don't own a Thar.

I think all vehicles have some or the other niggling issues with them.
Damn I have had issues with all my vehicles
in fact i10 has a known issue and there is a thread on it as well. Same with Pulsar and esteem as well.

Lets be fair with due respect.

Price I agree, same reason why I don't own one as yet.

Interiors yes, too basic - but I think trying to keep the jeep look caused the mayhem - probably? (am guessing)

Mechanically I think is great from what it was designed to be and am no expert but I think my kind of non-experts but passionate form the 90% customer base in India - probably? (am guessing)

The passion involved in building the Thar needs to be seen to be believed. BD sir is not merely defending it.

You want a off-roader - build it!
You want a second vehicle with multiple capabilities - buy a Thar!


Cheers!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Jeep chalao yaar. Chak de phatte"!

Best regards,
Behram Dhabhar
BD Sir,
Thank you
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Old 10th May 2013, 17:33   #88
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

What is a possible solution that the tie rod ends and CV joints, steering tie rods remain safe in off road situations, one cannot exactly avoid nor does he have a choice how and when one gets stuck off road, one minor lapse of concentration and you are stuck.

And when you want to get stuck - you cant get stuck. Really. I was teaching off road rescue and recovery techniques to a group of enthusiastic newbie offroaders about five years ago. I tried cresting my vehicle on a small dune to let one of the trainees actually tug it out correctly and safely. Honestly I failed to crest it for the 2 inch lift suspension would sail over the crest everytime ! Finally I drove it without a run and got it stuck nearer to the base of the dune.!
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Old 11th May 2013, 09:38   #89
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by sudev View Post
.
Tie Rod Breaking in sand? Or slushy sand? Only one reason I can think is the driver trying to turn the wheel when there is no space for tyres to move. Not realizing that the power steering reduces the effort needed but also multiplies abuse on tie rod ends if the wheel is continuously turned even when there is no play available.
Shouldn't an offroader be tested for these extreme conditions when it is being marketed for being reliable. I presume the driver would have been experienced enough not to have turned the steering in static.

In any case, snapping of tie rod is a very serious safety critical issue and cannot be dubbed as a minor niggle.
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Old 12th May 2013, 13:49   #90
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

The Thar was never intended/designed for extreme off road conditions. As advertised it is "Jeep" with good highway characteristics (but bad brakes)

Here we are comparing a 7L vehicle with 30+L vehicles. Obviously there are be better off roaders
The cheapest Wangler - $27K (http://www.jeep.com/hostc/vsmc/vehic...Code=CUJ201307)
Cheapest Landcruiser - $78K (http://www.toyota.com/landcruiser/#!/models)

Assuming that taxes constitute 40% of the ex-show room prices the Thar is just 7.3K x .6 ~ 4.5K ~ $8K, so there are bound to be serious compromise when you have a product at least 1/3 the price of competitor.

In my opinion one of the methods of getting better crawl characteristics is to redesign the "Low" ratio, which will retain the highway speed while having better Low gearing for crawling.

That apart, there is no excuse for shoddy materials and workmanship.

Would I buy the Thar? Yes when I can cobble up the funds for a base Thar + Mods, as all said and done even at 12-15L bracket there is no competition to a well modified Thar. If I had oodles of Money I would just import a Rubicon, but till then a Thar would do.
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