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Old 12th May 2013, 14:13   #91
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

I am not sure that this thread is going the right direction. Am seeing a lot of posts from bigwigs, everyone is right from their own perspective, their own interests.

But come to think of it, there could be many instances where one may not feel like buying a particular car even if its a sales success. Do we go about capturing all those. In which case I can atleast pen down 5 very successful cars I wont even touch.

This thread is moving fast, in the wrong direction.
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Old 12th May 2013, 14:17   #92
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by 1100D View Post
I am not sure that this thread is going the right direction. Am seeing a lot of posts from bigwigs, everyone is right from their own perspective, their own interests.

But come to think of it, there could be many instances where one may not feel like buying a particular car even if its a sales success. Do we go about capturing all those. In which case I can atleast pen down 5 very successful cars I wont even touch.

This thread is moving fast, in the wrong direction.
I so agree with you.
What next?
Fiat Fanboys coming up with a thread,i wont buy that Particular Hyundai as it cannot take that corner at 80km/hr
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Old 12th May 2013, 23:03   #93
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Shahid,

Any views on the Extreme Offroad Vehicle 4x4x4 from Force Motors?

They are promoting it as world's First EOV and comes loaded with diff locks, which is one up on the Thar!

Would you go for it?
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Old 13th May 2013, 08:21   #94
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by thecdkfactor View Post
Shouldn't an offroader be tested for these extreme conditions when it is being marketed for being reliable. I presume the driver would have been experienced enough not to have turned the steering in static.

In any case, snapping of tie rod is a very serious safety critical issue and cannot be dubbed as a minor niggle.
Yes extremely critical safety issue if TRE's break easy.

However the scenario I was alluding to is when, say, the wheel is stuck between two rocks. Trying to force turn the steering is not going to budge the rocks!! TRE's will snap or what ever the weakest link. Similarly if your vehicle is stuck in deep sandy ruts there may not be play available for wheels to move side to side. I have seen this happening with TRE's going for toss.

Yes this thread is moving away from OP's statement but comparing oranges with apples is not the answer. If some other VFM proposition was available I may also dump a Thar in its favour.
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Old 13th May 2013, 08:34   #95
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
Last time I checked, Detroit did not sell new Jeeps for $15,000 with close to 40% of that price accounting for taxes and duties.

You get what you pay for.

Excellent points IMHO.


I just took delivery on a Thar CRDe 3 weeks ago. I knew it was not a pure off-roader when I bought it. But I don't do much of that anyway. I travel and trek the mountains up here. I travel bad roads, not off-roads. And, I go up and down a lot...there's this mountain range, you see, and....

Thar gets me to the mountains relatively comfortably, its got heat, air and power steering, great turning ratio and handling....it's not so bad.

Lack of low end grunt, low speed power is my major complaint so far.
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Old 13th May 2013, 09:09   #96
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1100D View Post
Am seeing a lot of posts from bigwigs, everyone is right from their own perspective, their own interests.

But come to think of it, there could be many instances where one may not feel like buying a particular car even if its a sales success. Do we go about capturing all those. In which case I can atleast pen down 5 very successful cars I wont even touch.
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Originally Posted by akshay4587 View Post
What next? Fiat Fanboys coming up with a thread,i wont buy that Particular Hyundai as it cannot take that corner at 80km/hr
No, it won't happen with any other car. And for a good reason. Those who joined the Thar party late will not understand the underlying emotions here. Thar is the only vehicle in the history of Indian cars, which was made after soliciting extensive input from offroaders on Team-BHP. Hope some of you still remember the wishlist saga. In fact, Behram has openly admitted that he used the massive Thar threads as proof to show Mahindra management that Thar is a viable product. When the MBA warriors attacked the Thar project with powerpoint, Behram parried and counterattacked with TBHP Thar threads. And he eventually won that war. Therefore, the offroaders on TBHP feel a certain ownership regarding the features of Thar. This is especially true for the wishlist contributors who spent a year on the wishlist thread with their cheque books open.

For the uninitiated, here is the famous wishlist: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ve...mm540-4wd.html (MM540-4WD wish list - what you really want in your MM540-4WD?)
[BTW, you will find a very different sounding Vinod Nookla there. ]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDan View Post
I travel and trek the mountains up here. I travel bad roads, not off-roads. And, I go up and down a lot...there's this mountain range, you see, and....

Thar gets me to the mountains relatively comfortably, its got heat, air and power steering, great turning ratio and handling....it's not so bad.
Thar is best for your needs. You have made the right choice.

Last edited by Samurai : 13th May 2013 at 09:15.
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Old 13th May 2013, 09:33   #97
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
No, it won't happen with any other car. And for a good reason. Those who joined the Thar party late will not understand the underlying emotions here. Thar is the only vehicle in the history of Indian cars, which was made after soliciting extensive input from offroaders on Team-BHP. Hope some of you still remember the wishlist saga. In fact, Behram has openly admitted that he used the massive Thar threads as proof to show Mahindra management that Thar is a viable product.
.
Atleast for me, I can say that I did not join the Thar party late. Had been in interactions with Behram Dhabhar from much earlier than that. I remember speaking to him much before that wishlist thread started, those were the South African Thar days and the magazines had only mentioned that Mahindra "could" be working on something that resembles an mm550 but modern underneath. This is just to give a placeholder for the discussion.

Vinod does sound different, but for a reason. But trust me, Thar still needs numbers to sustain, only if it does, it will improve. Will killing the product do anyone any good, apart from supporting the local roadside mm540 support industry in robbing you of both time, money and sanity?
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Old 13th May 2013, 10:41   #98
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

The Marshal’s Wife test drove a Thar :

Saturday afternoon I had gone to Palam Vihar area , opposite the Maruti Cars factory where the Mahindra Gurgaon ( Sterling Motors ) showroom is now shifted.
I asked her since the lease of your Car is expiring on June 9, would you like to buy a Thar and test drive one if you like itWe took a Thar for test drive. My wife has been an off roaders wife for seventeen years now, born and brought up in Dubai she has seen Landcruisers and Land rovers as a normal part of life, and among her own personal cars has owned my older Prado, Landcruiser 100 and FJ Cruiser ( It was a gift to us from Toyota ). She is also very familiar with off roading having been my navigator or guest in over some 200 Grade 1,2 or 3 desert trips, inaugurated some off road events and tied the first lucky tape on many final marshal run arrows tripsThe test Vehicle was badly maintained and driven of course. The outer appearance of this Brick Red Thar was fine but the zipper of the rear canopy flap was broken, floor mats dirty, gap in front door rubber seals, gear boot cover torn, on of the AC blower vents damaged. This kind of a car may not exactly attract a la lifestyle lady customers one of whom was testing itI sat on the passenger seat and observed Getting in : What are these Bolero like side board’s ? Wont they scrape on the dunes ? Yes I saidHer report – AC is OK in the front. Rear cabin inadequate[Power steering light and nifty]This famed CRD e engine, nothing great about it, noisy and rattling. Not great pick up as expected[Gearbox, terrible. Slipping, excessive vibration, shifting difficult Low transfer case – off roading on an empty patch of land nearby which actually had a four inch deep puddle. Very difficult to engage and disengage. FJ Cruiser was so easy, even the Wranglers would engage immediatelyVerdict – Exterior OK. Interior terrible. –Why not a better dashboard, interior design Want to buy it ? It is no Wrangler.
I know but do you want to buy it ?
Why should I buy it for 7.5 Lakhs when the house Bolero is more comfortable than this and was purchased for 6.65 lakhs ?
If it was sold for about 5.5 Lakhs I could have kept it .No she wont buy a Thar

Last edited by khan_sultan : 13th May 2013 at 10:47.
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Old 13th May 2013, 11:15   #99
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by 1100D View Post
Atleast for me, I can say that I did not join the Thar party late. Had been in interactions with Behram Dhabhar from much earlier than that.
Well, I don't recall you being active in initial Thar threads like wishlist, etc. However, if you were following threads, then at least you should understand why the offroaders were disappointed at the end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1100D View Post
Will killing the product do anyone any good, apart from supporting the local roadside mm540 support industry in robbing you of both time, money and sanity?
Who is talking about killing the Thar?

Now Thar CRDe caters to these segments.
  • People in hilly/estates areas who need a modern Jeep that can master the highway and also offroad if required.
  • People who want a reliable lifestyle Jeep without having to rebuild/restore it first.
  • Speed based offroad competitions, a sport that barely existed before Thar.

The above segments far outstrip the hobbyist offroaders. Therefore, Thar CRDe very much has its place and it is a boon for the above users. Thar is a market success because of the above users.

And here is the bone of contention. This section is called 4x4 & Off-Roading. This was mainly created for discussing hobbyist offroading. I know this because I was very much involved in the creation of this section. And Arka was the first guy who demanded such a section in TeamBHP.

Therefore, when we used to talk about 4x4 vehicles in this section, it was from the point of hobbyist offroading. All the pre-launch discussions about Thar was from hobbyist offroading point of view. However, once Thar was launched, the other larger segments (mentioned above) discovered it. The division is not clean cut, because many hobbyist offroaders are also into speed based offroad competitions.

In this section, we still have good number of hobbyist offroaders who feel that Thar eventually didn't address their needs, despite contributing to the wishlist. But the new category of users don't have that emotional baggage, and are very happy with what they got.

BTW, Thar CDRe can do hardcore offroading. In the hands of the right driver , it can do anything that MM550 or CJ340 can, technique may differ though. But the damages and post-OTR bills will be much bigger.
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Old 13th May 2013, 11:40   #100
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
When the MBA warriors attacked the Thar project with powerpoint, Behram parried and counterattacked with TBHP Thar threads. And he eventually won that war. Therefore, the offroaders on TBHP feel a certain ownership regarding the features of Thar. This is especially true for the wishlist contributors who spent a year on the wishlist thread with their cheque books open.
Dear Sharath - thank you so much for putting the complete effort from 2008 in correct perspective. I take this opportunity to thank TeamBHP, hats off to you guys for your absolutely solid support. We as a team had always hoped for a smooth introduction and TeamBHP's solid support was the "backup plan", in case we needed it, and indeed we needed it! In April 1996, in a 5 star hotel, between lunch and afternoon tea, we were taught never to work without a "backup plan" and a "contingency plan", we just used what we were taught, (no issue there, I hope!). .

Guys, move on, look to the future, its time has come - what next? the big guys are coming and after seeing Duster, they will not be pricey, the game has changed! How to counter without cost advantage? The edge here is that we Indians know the Indian market best. They may have the product but will they have the "use suitability"? India is one of the toughest markets to crack for any automobile product. Well, let the game begin! This will be a positive discussion, let's do this Sharath, I request you to please do the honours by starting a separate thread.

Dear Anirban - I know that this thread is going in the incorrect direction. After all, freedom of expression is a fundamental right in our country. Back to work!

.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 13th May 2013, 11:47   #101
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Now Thar CRDe caters to these segments.
  • People who want a reliable lifestyle Jeep without having to rebuild/restore it first.
That's me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Therefore, when we used to talk about 4x4 vehicles in this section, it was from the point of hobbyist offroading. All the pre-launch discussions about Thar was from hobbyist offroading point of view. However, once Thar was launched, the other larger segments (mentioned above) discovered it.
Well, frankly speaking .. I didn't know this section existed before the Thar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
But the new category of users don't have that emotional baggage, and are very happy with what they got.
Me again.

Well, just trying to make a point that a huge chunk of Thar users don't care about hardcore offroading. Such a segment exists and it is real.

To illustrate .. Just this Saturday night at 1 AM, I was parked outside 24x7 convenience store in GK2, South Delhi right next to a Jaguar XKR (convertible with the top down). My Jeep got more eye-balls than the Jag. So much so that my wife and cousin complained that I shouldn't leave women alone in the Jeep like that - gets too much unwanted attention!!

The Bolero would look rural and out of place.
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Old 13th May 2013, 11:58   #102
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Originally Posted by manveet View Post
To illustrate .. Just this Saturday night at 1 AM, I was parked outside 24x7 convenience store in GK2, South Delhi right next to a Jaguar XKR (convertible with the top down). My Jeep got more eye-balls than the Jag. So much so that my wife and cousin complained that I shouldn't leave women alone in the Jeep like that - gets too much unwanted attention!!

The Bolero would look rural and out of place.
Completely OT.

That 24x7 is a great leveler. The other day at 1 am, on fb, a partner of big law firm (presumably still at work) was cribbing - 'I could do with some sushi from Jiro (some Tokyo restaurant) right now'. Promptly someone replied back, 'no Sir, you will have to make do with with a hot dog at GKII 24x7.'

Last edited by manolin : 13th May 2013 at 12:02.
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Old 13th May 2013, 12:31   #103
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by manveet View Post
Well, just trying to make a point that a huge chunk of Thar users don't care about hardcore offroading. Such a segment exists and it is real. To illustrate, just this Saturday night at 1 AM, I was parked outside 24x7 convenience store in GK2, South Delhi right next to a Jaguar XKR (convertible with the top down). My Jeep got more eye-balls than the Jag. The Bolero would look rural and out of place.
Dear Manveet - you have made absolutely correct comment. We know that a majority of Thar users and aspirants are not hard core off-roaders. Such a segment exists and it is a huge chunk. In absence of anything in the low price range, most of them in North India are forced to use spruced up 2WD vehicles.

On Thar getting eyeballs v/s Jaguar, you are correct. Thar does things to people no other vehicle can. We knew it, that's why we made it!

Dear all - if we could see such a simple fact as above and act on it, let "people" realize and finally appreciate! Come on guys, give credit where it is due and give it to people who deserve it!

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

PS - "You must create room for Mavericks" - Prof Stefan Thomke from Harvard Business School in Kuala Lampur in December 2007. We made Thar after this conference!
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Old 13th May 2013, 13:52   #104
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

The good news is that the Thar with broken tie rods was finally hauled back here to Gurgaon after replacement parts were sent from Delhi to Swarma, a remote village on the bank of river Ganges in the remote Badaun district of UP. Two mechanics were also sent from Gurgaon.

It came back laden with gifts of some very sweet water melons and cucumbers that are grown in that area!

The owner of this Thar has a never say die spirit. He wants to join me on my next expidition to this area again in a couple of weeks time!

Last edited by desertfox : 13th May 2013 at 13:53.
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Old 13th May 2013, 15:06   #105
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Hi,
Have been following this thread a bit, thought I would pen down my thoughts.

Don't know how much my opinion counts here.... I am no mean offroader and understand only the very basics of offorading. The best offroad events that I have attended are the ones through the pictures on Team-Bhp.
All in All a very average Indian Consumer.
In fact I started noticing the Thar from the others only after being an active member of this forum.

However to be very frank, I like the way the Thar is, It grows on you. A noob like me also could figure out that for a Thar to exist in a Hard Core Offroad event would still require some Mods. I dont think it was ever intended to Be a Hard-Core Offroader, right out of the manufacturing plant.

But for the purposes that it was built: Drive to Work, Highway Drives, Looks, a bit of off roading, jeep thrills I am sure it serves them well. And as a matter of fact I have seen more of satisfied Thar owners than the unhappy ones.

Personal Opinion,
Jussst Before the Wife and Finances Permit us having two cars, I would have a Thar. Heck even my wife really likes Thar* !!

*Conditions Applied

BD Sir,

Your Passion for Thar is Truly overwhelming !! Kudos to you. !!
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