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Old 15th May 2013, 23:42   #121
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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear Star Aqua - quality processes are applied equally
Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
Dear BD,

I have the utmost respect for you. At a time when I was told by all the "jeepers" that pulling to one side is a characteristic to be expected and accepted of all jeeps, you were the one who helped me out by checking my alignment report and identifying the issue with the caster settings and recommending me a place where I can get it fixed.

However, I must disagree with you completely on the quality aspect. With my experience, there is no quality control within MM. Period.

To start with, when the vehicle was delivered to me by the dealer, it had dents which they explained as warping of metal due to welding. When I refused to accep thte vehicle they claim to repair it at the service station but as confirmed by MM customer service - there was no job card opened. What were they trying to cover up by doing the work without a job card, the cause of the dent or the extent of the dent repaired.

Second, the alignment problem was evident from the moment I took delivery. Leve the steering for a fraction of a second, and the vehicle veered to the left taking an almost U turn.

How did this get missed in inspection?

Thirdly the most often complained about issued by many - coolant leakage. The service station took three days to trace it and found that the hose from the radiator had not been clipped properly - (what quality control?).

Then one day the vehicle refused to start leaving me stranded. 3 hours later the service station arrive and find that the starter wire was loose. How does the starter wire get loose? This doesn't happen after running lacs of kms in other vehicles and it happened within 1500 kms and 2 months from delivery of a "brand new" Thar.

The final nail in the coffin for me was when the bolts attached to the frame of the B-pillar just fell into my palms.

Now either there was something exceptionally faulty or non-existent with the quality control in the factory or else I was sold an accident vehicle with active knowledge of the dealer and MM which can be the only explanation for the denting repair work to be done without any job card.

The population of India were used to such unethical practices in the 70's when owning a vehicle was a privilege of the few. But these days, engaging in such practices is downright illegal and corrupt.

Why should anyone buy the factory produced "superbly engineered Thar" at the price point of 8+lacs when you can get a lot more reliability from an old local made jeep for less than 4 lacs. And this question is regardless of the capabilities promised by this "engineering marvel".

Once again Mr BD - I have said this to you personally and I repeat it - Thar may be an engineering marvel but when it comes to manufacturing, it is an absolute disaster.
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Old 16th May 2013, 10:03   #122
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

You are judging the Mahindra boys too harshly.

The guys at Mahindra are knowledgeable, experienced and passionate BUT dont forget that they have been screwing together WW2 jeeps for us for 50 years.
When they (PAL, HM, M&M) say they follow QC processes they are not lying to you, the poor guys are just ignorant as to what QC means and entails.
They dont know any better as that is what they have been taught/ been doing since they began working.

Its like asking your roadside dhaba if he is hygienic- of course he will say YES. Of course he wipes his hands on his lungi after going to the toilet and before touching your food!

We just need to swallow the automotive equivalent of some digene/lomotil when we buy a Mahindra.

BTW I have a scorpio and a CL500 so I too am benefiting from their QC .

I often ask myself why I buy Mahindra and each time the answer is the same, they have good product placement and are a virtual monopoly in the segments they play in.
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Old 16th May 2013, 10:27   #123
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Its like asking your roadside dhaba if he is hygienic- of course he will say YES. Of course he wipes his hands on his lungi after going to the toilet and before touching your food!

We just need to swallow the automotive equivalent of some digene/lomotil when we buy a Mahindra.

I often ask myself why I buy Mahindra and each time the answer is the same, they have good product placement and are a virtual monopoly in the segments they play in.



Monopoly or not, When I pay 8+ lacs for a vehicle I expect it will work defect free 99% of the time and the only reason to take it to the workshop would be for regular servicing or for repairs of damages caused during my driving.

Why do I have this expectation? Because all other vehicle manufacturers of non Indian origin are today offering this reliability and they are offering it at all ranges of prices.

It doesn't matter what segment you have opened up. If the product cannot function, it does not matter what capabilities you are willing to offer with it. "Promised capabilities" are of no use in a non-functioning product.

Last edited by moralfibre : 16th May 2013 at 14:00. Reason: Only two smileys per post please.
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Old 16th May 2013, 10:31   #124
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

These things hold true no longer. If Mahindra can produce an XUV then the improvements in QC have to go across the range.

With new entrants coming to India and placing their vehicles within the same features and prices of Mahindra very soon they will be forced to pull up their socks.

Like I mentioned earlier, a Thar buyer is most likely a Team Bhp member, unlike a Bolero buyer, therefore QC problems of Boleros dont get highlighted here much.

In the 70s and 80s when new CJ3B Jeeps, Amby's and Fiats were purchased it was normal expectations that a few snags will be there which the dealer's service centre will fix.

But come 1984 and a phenomenon called Maruti, followed by Hyundai, Daewoo, Toyota, and now Nissan plus a GM full of Daewoo / Subaru has brought Kaizen into the system.

Customer expectations have changed.

Thar is only a trickle sale but the market is growing in this segment, led by Delhi and Punjab. Soon there will be market potential growth in other metros and class I & II cities.

Suzuki Vitaras or Toyota RAV 4 Landrover Defender 90 or a soft top version of Daihatshu Firoza, Rocky or Kia sportage lower derivatives is just about on the anvil. Mahindra will be the ultimate loser if they dont improve today itself.
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Old 16th May 2013, 10:50   #125
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

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Originally Posted by anda60213 View Post
Dear BD - I must disagree with you completely on the quality aspect. With my experience, there is no quality control within MM. Period. Thar may be an engineering marvel but when it comes to manufacturing, it is an absolute disaster.
Dear Anda60213 - welcome to you on TeamBHP. I know you have sold your Thar, you should have told me, I would have picked it up.

I will disagree to your comment on quality for the following reason: There are very good quality systems and processes in place within the organization. They are used properly also. Regular reviews are held where the data is shared and the indices showing the results are highlighted. People's MOP (Measure of Performance) is based on compliance with these processes. Obviously I cannot share details.

I will disagree to your comment on manufacturing for the following reason: Manufacturing is done on the Bolero line. Manufacturing control processes and EOL (End of Line) controls are in place. Here also, regular reviews are held where the data is shared and the indices showing the results are highlighted. People's MOP (Measure of Performance) is based on compliance with these processes. Obviously I cannot share details.

Then how come you as a customer are not happy? How did your "automatic U turn taking" vehicle go straight afterwards? You know what you did and where you did it to correct it! These are good points, these must be discussed, solutions found and implemented, then you should become happy!, this is what the Japanese do, they find the exact root cause and then they correct it to ensure that it never happens again!

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

PS1 - "kya bhailog, samjha kya? kushtumber bolta hai, kushtumber"! .
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Old 16th May 2013, 10:58   #126
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Default re: Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar!

Am sure there is a proper quality check at M&M as at TATA, etc. But the expectations from QC are different today from what they were earlier. The Japs took years perfecting QC to a level that even today the Americans and Germans don't really match upto. The Koreans have come close to the Japs though. If it (The Process of checking quality) was that simply then at least the western world would have got it right much earlier. TATA and M&M are relatively new at this. Though it is about time now and they should start getting things right.

We need to have a term for the Quality of QC - QQC? The Quality of Quality Checks.

That said the attitude towards Service of both M&M and TATA is better than of the other Brand in my view. They know of their shortfalls and attempt to compensate in other ways. If a Honda vehicle had these kind of issues am sure their service centre would be at it's wits end trying to solve it.

Last edited by ACM : 16th May 2013 at 11:02.
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Old 16th May 2013, 11:09   #127
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Originally Posted by KMT View Post
They dont know any better as that is what they have been taught/ been doing since they began working.

Its like asking your roadside dhaba if he is hygienic- of course he will say YES. Of course he wipes his hands on his lungi after going to the toilet and before touching your food!
Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Then how come you as a customer are not happy? How did your "automatic U turn taking" vehicle go straight afterwards? You know what you did and where you did it to correct it! These are good points, these must be discussed, solutions found and implemented, then you should become happy!, this is what the Japanese do, they find the exact root cause and then they correct it to ensure that it never happens again!

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

PS1 - "kya bhailog, samjha kya? kushtumber bolta hai, kushtumber"! .
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACM View Post
But the expectations from QC are different today from what they were earlier. The Japs took years perfecting QC to a level that even today the Americans and Germans don't really match upto. The Koreans have come close to the Japs though. If it (The Process of checking quality) was that simply then at least the western world would have got it right much earlier. TATA and M&M are relatively new at this. Though it is about time now and they should start getting things right.

We need to have a term for the Quality of QC - QQC? The Quality of Quality Checks.
Dear BD,

You can disagree. Your passion for your baby is understandable and your professional ethics highly commendable for defending your previous employer.

The question is not whether the problem was rectified or not.

The question is why the problem existed in the first place to begin with? The question is why so many problems existed together in one vehicle purchased brand new from the showroom?

No other vehicle has to be taken to the workshop for pre-existing defects 7 to 8 times before even the first service is due. No other vehicle has to remain 10 to 15 days in the workshop within the first 3 months from delivery.

I have been the owner of 7 different vehicles in my life time and in each of these vehicles, the only time I had to take it to the service station was for regular servicing or for repairs to damages caused by my driving.

With all the excel sheets and MOP indicators in place - how do you explain all the defects encountered in the vehicle that was sold to me? How come the MOP indicators and excel sheets etc did not prevent these defects?

You have yourself quoted the Japanese discussing solutions so that defects can be prevented. I am not the first buyer of the Thar. I am definitely not within the first 1000 buyers as well. I would assume I am not even in the first 10000. Then how come the defects I encountered were not prevented?

Like KMT & ACM have mentioned - maybe your understanding of QC is different from ours. You can continue to standby your definition of QC and defend your positions till eternity, or you (or rather M&M) can choose to really listen and hear what we are saying and maybe then we can hope a definite improvement in quality as understood by us the customers.

Last edited by anda60213 : 16th May 2013 at 11:17.
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Old 16th May 2013, 11:24   #128
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Originally Posted by anda60213 View Post
No other vehicle has to be taken to the workshop for pre-existing defects 7 to 8 times before even the first service is due. No other vehicle has to remain 10 to 15 days in the workshop within the first 3 months from delivery.
Hi,

Maybe slightly OT.
In your previous post you have mentioned that there were dents on the body, and coupled with the other mechanical issues you faced, did you look into the possibility of it being an accident vehicle. This seems quiet suspicious especially as the showroom guys did not prepare a job card for it.
This is nothing new, this has happened with other brands as well where dealers try to push such vehicles over to unsuspecting customers.

I feel you should have checked on this aspect first. Buying a new vehicle is an entire process, and there's a lot of emotional attachment involved, very true for a vehicle like Thar. By pursuing on that front, maybe (i am speculating) things could have reached a more logical end rather than selling the vehicle.

Cheers,
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Old 16th May 2013, 11:41   #129
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Originally Posted by Trojan View Post
Hi,

Maybe slightly OT.
In your previous post you have mentioned that there were dents on the body, and coupled with the other mechanical issues you faced, did you look into the possibility of it being an accident vehicle. This seems quiet suspicious especially as the showroom guys did not prepare a job card for it.
This is nothing new, this has happened with other brands as well where dealers try to push such vehicles over to unsuspecting customers.

I feel you should have checked on this aspect first. Buying a new vehicle is an entire process, and there's a lot of emotional attachment involved, very true for a vehicle like Thar. By pursuing on that front, maybe (i am speculating) things could have reached a more logical end rather than selling the vehicle.

Cheers,
Yes, I did suspect that. If these defects are not factory defects, then the only other explanation could be that the vehicle has suffered a significant shock impact even before it was delivered to me.

How was I to know that in this day and age dealers are engaging in such practices. I have owned 7 different vehicles from 4 different manufacturers and never faced such a problem.

Besides the thought that this is an accident vehicle was the precise reason why I sold it. Why should I keep holding on to it and keep getting it repaired repeatedly till such time that the problems are so many that no one is ready to buy it ever? Then I have to become like one of those people who have a divine relationship with their vehicles. Plus the laws & legal process in India does not guarantee me a replacement vehicle from Mahindra or from the dealer (at least not in my lifetime).

Beside this argument that the dealer might have sold an accident vehicle is a double edged sword. Either the dealer is getting away with it by active collusion from M&M. If not, then how come M&M does not have controls on their dealers to prevent them from doing such things?

You are right that buying a vehicle like Thar is an emotional process. That's why the title of this thread is so apt - "Why I won't buy a Thar". I would go a step further and say "Why I won't buy a Mahindra".

Last edited by anda60213 : 16th May 2013 at 12:01.
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Old 16th May 2013, 11:48   #130
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Originally Posted by anda60213 View Post
The question is why the problem existed in the first place to begin with? The question is why so many problems existed together in one vehicle purchased brand new from the showroom?

No other vehicle has to be taken to the workshop for pre-existing defects 7 to 8 times before even the first service is due. No other vehicle has to remain 10 to 15 days in the workshop within the first 3 months from delivery.

I have been the owner of 7 different vehicles in my life time and in each of these vehicles, the only time I had to take it to the service station was for regular servicing or for repairs to damages caused by my driving.
Actually there have been XUV's, Earlier Safari versions, Earlier Scorpio etc. with a similar line up of defects.

Vehicles like the Aria, Rexton, Duster too have had some niggles or at times major issues.

There is a distinct possibility that many Bolero's and Sumo Vista etc too may have had similar issues as the Thar, but may not be coming up too much on TBHP due to the profile of members out here. Though there are a few owner of both here for sure.

The Quality checks of a vehicle tends to improve post 360 degree feedback that helps determine which particular faults need to be specifically better checked.

There are also three steps in the quality process. For example if an oil pipe is getting clamped then the first step would be to design a process by which the chance of it not being fixed properly does not exist. The second would be about how one goes about checking oil pipes for the clamps being fixed properly (Sample or 100%) and lastly let us say post efforts in both step 1 and 2 the oil clamp is still coming updone or is being fixed too loose, then it could be a supplier or design issue and the product management (technical guys) need to resolve this.

It is complex - should get done, and may be actually gets done well in 1000's of parts for even a Thar but there are even more parts and evidently some slip.

Just talking about the process and complexity here not about the rights and wrong of it.

Some how would not say that some initial (before first service) issue should / would be a reason for too many to stay away from the Thar. But repeat issues (recurrence of the problem - like the reportedly flimsy door handles that break off) could be cause for concern.
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Old 16th May 2013, 11:57   #131
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Actually there have been XUV's, Earlier Safari versions, Earlier Scorpio etc. with a similar line up of defects.

Vehicles like the Aria, Rexton, Duster too have had some niggles or at times major issues.
All of the above are Mahindra or Tata except the Rexton and Duster. One can claim that Rexton is also now Mahindra.

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Some how would not say that some initial (before first service) issue should / would be a reason for too many to stay away from the Thar.
I disagree. When I pay 8+ lacs for a vehicle, I do not expect, anticipate nor desire such defects. Period.

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But repeat issues (recurrence of the problem - like the reportedly flimsy door handles that break off) could be cause for concern.
Depends on how one defines repeat issues. All the defects I encountered were repeat issues of nuts & bolts not having been fastened, which leads to questions about which other bolts and nuts would fall off in the future.

You may say that I have been spoiled with my experiences with Maruti, Ford, Fiat & Nissan.

But then remember, the Thar has been positioned to attract precisely customers like me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post
There are some facts about purchase behavior-
1. Some people like building their own 4x4. They will never buy new or like a new vehicle. They build vehicle for themselves and we build vehicles to common tastes.

2. Traditionalists will never accept new is better then the old. For them IDI was better then the Di, then DI N.A engines were better than the Di turbo ones and now Turbo engines are better than the CRDI ones.

3. A lot depends on affordability and it's a fact!

For people who may have got confused whether to buy a new Thar or not here is the synopsis-

3. Need an all rounder and budget is not an issue, intend to do fair share of upgrades suiting individual tastes, in need of single driven personal 4x4 that stands out- buy THAR CRDe

At the end one must know what he wants! If you are looking for an SUV comfort in THAR, you will never find it. Set your expectations clear and you will be happy.
I knew what I wanted. I was not looking for SUV comfort. I was looking for functioning reliability of vehicle. And my expctations were very clear. But I was not happy. Far from happy, I have stated in my mail to M&M - If I had not found a buyer, I would have driven the vehicle to the showroom, poured kerosene over it and torched it. That is the extent of my "happiness".

Regardless of whether the defects were factory defects or due to accident caused by the dealer, I as a buyer purchased a brand new vehicle and found it fall way below the standards of acceptable quality & reliability that I am used to when buying a new vehicle.

Last edited by anda60213 : 16th May 2013 at 12:26.
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Old 16th May 2013, 12:31   #132
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Dear BD, you can disagree. Your passion for your baby is understandable and your professional ethics highly commendable for defending your previous employer.
Dear anda60213 - I am not defending anybody, I am just stating the facts (please read the "PS" at the end of my post, you will understand).

Dear ACM - your comment "the product management (technical guys) need to resolve this". In this day and age of presentation specialists, is this the priority?, shine maroing is sufficient, come on now! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 16th May 2013, 12:54   #133
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^^

DB am referring to the Ideal World Scenario of course.

If everything that should be done indeed got done then -- but that is for another day.

Shine maroing happens in all companies and also across the globe, be it my previous French Global Energy Efficiency Giant or American or Taiwanese IT Hardware or BPO firms. They why not in India. We invented "Sirji" the world has learnt it- Removed the "ji" I normally place in front of your initial on this post due to this comment here.

But the thread is about why one would not buy the Thar. - Am not the TG in this case - need more creature comforts.
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Old 16th May 2013, 12:57   #134
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Being in the quality and business excellence role for the past 8 years I'd only like to share that defining a process of Quality Assurance or Quality Control isn't where the problem is. All the big organizations today (be it product or service line) have clearly defined Quality Assurance or Quality Control SOPs and processes.

However, how comprehensive the process is, the competency of people executing it, the seriousness, the adequacy of the quality checks, measurement of effectiveness of the quality checks etc. differ from company to company.

While one manufacturer has the most well-defined quality checks, other might not even have one of the checkpoints in their checklist. While both manufacturers have the checkpoints, one might not have competent personnel to do those quality checks. While both manufacturers have competent personnel, their KPIs or BSCs ultimately affecting their take-home, might be different, ultimately affecting the task output. While all MDs and Chairmen want to give the best product to the customer, how many are actually ensuring it through a top-down approach where the Operator understands the importance of the quality. Its a culture thing more than anything.

While Japanese CXOs sweat it out during Gemba walks our CXOs/MDs here would rather respond to a tweet to fix something. The jugaad mentality is correction or containment action, not even corrective action, while a quality culture rotates primarily around preventive action and secondarily around corrective action.
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Old 16th May 2013, 13:51   #135
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However, how comprehensive the process is, the competency of people executing it, the seriousness, the adequacy of the quality checks, measurement of effectiveness of the quality checks etc. differ from company to company.
This is the most important aspect, more than any MOPs and SOPs one can quote.

Back in the 90s, I was sent to do a security audit of the electronic fund transfer facility introduced by an Indian bank. The location was the main data center at the HQ of the Bank. On the second day of the audit, I just walked in purposefully into the lobby in the full view of 3-4 security guards, got into the lift with many others, then walked into the data center whose access controlled door was left fully open. Then in full view of the data center staff, I settled in front of a EFT terminal whose screen was left unlocked. I had no ID tag, still I was not stopped or questioned anywhere.

When I wanted to log this as a major security lapse, the data center manager was quite upset. He said it will make their life miserable, to keep the door locked, entering pin every time, locking/unlocking the computer screen, stringent checks by the security, etc., etc. He then consulted with my manager, who instructed me to let it slide. The only reason why the bank was getting the audit done was because of RBI directive, they didn't want any real problems found. And my manager was happy to oblige them.

Moral: If QC report says it is fine, it might not be.

The story didn't end there. The data center manager wanted the report in a week. But, my company by then had become ISO9000 certified. Which means I had run through a set of reviews and sign offs and what not. I took 2 days for the actual audit, and 2 days to write the report. However, the ISO9000 process of this tiny project stretched the process to 1 month, to get all the sign offs. By the end of it, the report got edited, censored and watered down and had become completely benign.

Meanwhile, I had to endure nearly 3 weeks of hollering from data center manager for the audit report. I told him about our ISO 9000 process as the reason for delay. He told me he doesn't care what process we follow if it takes more than a week. Then my boss told me to explain to him why ISO 9000 will greatly improve the quality of the report. Don't think the data center manager bought that story.

Moral: Customer doesn't really give a damn about your internal processes. Throwing your internal procedural buzzwords at them doesn't impress them at all, especially when the end result is not satisfying.

Even though I was quite young when this fiasco happened, I learned a great deal in just one month on how well-intentioned processes can deliver sub-par performance. It was a real crash-course in the reality of QC in India.

Last edited by Samurai : 16th May 2013 at 13:56.
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