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Old 26th May 2017, 19:01   #211
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Default Re: Review: The Force Gurkha 4x4

The Gurkha will come with the new 2.2L engine starting August this year, in the 5-door model. No idea when it will be available for the XPlorer variant.

No 3250 on the cards for the gurkha as of now, unfortunately. That would have really become a best-seller.

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Old 27th May 2017, 12:35   #212
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Default Re: Review: The Force Gurkha 4x4

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The Gurkha will come with the new 2.2L engine starting August this year, in the 5-door model.
This is good news. Any idea when they will put a proper dashboard ?

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No 3250 on the cards for the gurkha as of now, unfortunately. That would have really become a best-seller.
Not surprising . The FM2.2 is a much more modern engine.
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Old 27th May 2017, 13:35   #213
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Default Re: Review: The Force Gurkha 4x4

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The Gurkha will come with the new 2.2L engine starting August this year, in the 5-door model. No idea when it will be available for the XPlorer variant.
Makes me wonder why did they even try with the current engine when they clearly knew it was under-powered? Won't such a quick upgrade make the ones who already bought (wonder how many though) look kinda stupid? Will they risk that?

:(
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Old 27th May 2017, 15:08   #214
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Default Re: Review: The Force Gurkha 4x4

5 door Xplorer 4x4 is still not available at dealers simply because of this reason.
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Old 27th May 2017, 17:08   #215
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Default Re: Review: The Force Gurkha 4x4

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Makes me wonder why did they even try with the current engine when they clearly knew it was under-powered? Won't such a quick upgrade make the ones who already bought (wonder how many though) look kinda stupid? Will they risk that?

:(
If the user is happy with the 85hp motor....no problem. Ten years ago 85hp would have been acceptable for a lot of customers...it depends on how it is geared, whether it can climb hills, pull out of the slush. And, of course, what the customer's usage is.

I don't think Force is too worried about insulting its customers who bought the 85hp engine. Their opinion would be that they got what they paid for.

We have yet to discover how Force is going to handle the gearing on this new FM2.2 engine dropped into the Gurkha. It is conceivable that Force fouls up the gearing with this new engine just like Mahindra did with the Thar and Scorpio, neither of which can climb hills worth a tinker's damn. The 85hp might run rings around the FM2.2 on a hill climb. I hope not, but we shall see.
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Old 28th May 2017, 00:15   #216
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Default Re: Review: The Force Gurkha 4x4

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Not surprising . The FM2.2 is a much more modern engine.
In my opinion the no replacement for displacement.Moreover more no of cylinders makes dynamic balancing much more efficient. Plus more no of power strokes per rev. Well this is purely my liking of the feel of engine note, silky smooth power delivery.
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Old 28th May 2017, 11:47   #217
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In my opinion the no replacement for displacement.Moreover more no of cylinders makes dynamic balancing much more efficient. Plus more no of power strokes per rev. Well this is purely my liking of the feel of engine note, silky smooth power delivery.
It's a bit more complex, actually. Four stroke engine's cylinders cycle on two revolutions of the crank shaft.



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Old 29th May 2017, 21:17   #218
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It is conceivable that Force fouls up the gearing with this new engine just like Mahindra did with the Thar and Scorpio, neither of which can climb hills worth a tinker's damn.
Really? I haven't heard that complaint before. What do you think of Bolero gearing then, the DI version?

The 2.2 with 100 bhp looks good on paper. I really wish they get it right. They have all the ingredients, just need to get the recipe right.
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Old 29th May 2017, 23:12   #219
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Really? I haven't heard that complaint before. What do you think of Bolero gearing then, the DI version?

The 2.2 with 100 bhp looks good on paper. I really wish they get it right. They have all the ingredients, just need to get the recipe right.
Ringoism, Erik, is an engineer who lives at Manali, the gateway to the deep Himalayas. Here is his analysis of the Scorpio from just a few years back.

I have a Thar. Awful gearing, just awful.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ve...aul-spiti.html (Scorpio VLX 4x4 Review: 1000 kms in Lahaul-Spiti)
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Old 30th May 2017, 07:09   #220
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Default Re: Review: The Force Gurkha 4x4

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Here is his analysis of the Scorpio from just a few years back.
Interesting. Reaffirms what I have long suspected, that most Indian 4x4 cars are just posing.

The only exception is a Gypsy; the present model in stock form, well driven, can go to almost any place that the best stock 4x4 in the world can today.

But I guess that isn't really an Indian car - and not just because I recently discovered that even its body panels are still made in Japan!
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Old 30th May 2017, 10:40   #221
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Default Re: Review: The Force Gurkha 4x4

The trouble with modern CRDI engines is that they are designed and tuned for Highway running. The stated HP is at higher RPM (CRDI can run at much higher RPM than DI). The low end torque in smaller engines is quite low and it is only after the turbo kicks in that torque improves. In a nutshell a 45HP 3L DI engine will outperform a 100HP 2.2L CRDI engine at low end, hence the problem with Scorpio and Thar climbing hills or pottering around slopes at low speeds.

Let us see how the new 100HP engine fares against the older DI one.
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Old 31st May 2017, 11:13   #222
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Default Re: Review: The Force Gurkha 4x4

They do use this engine in RFC, though with extreme modifications. So they have the reference point and the capability to get the torque delivery sorted. But everything bad about Thar was attributed to cmvr , it may play the spoilsport here too, esp with BS4 kicking in. Force might have missed the bus by almost a decade despite having the vehicle in it's inventory. Sadly this decade will be the last for old school vehicles. Force 1 too had a good potential to compete with the likes of older scorpio and safari. I wonder if they'd ever resurrect that project too. But in case of Gurkha this may well be the last opportunity for them to taste some success and build a brand value in passenger vehicle segment. The vehicle already has a decent fan following. If only..
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Old 31st May 2017, 14:00   #223
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Default Re: Review: The Force Gurkha 4x4

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The trouble with modern CRDI engines is that they are designed and tuned for Highway running
Completely agree! I recently experienced this while driving my Safari up the Sigur Ghats (aka Kalhatti Ghats) on my way to the Nilgiris. On some of the steep hp bends, I had to constantly keep the RPM in the turbo range so as to not stall. I was so-so-so missing my Classic, which was nothing less than a mountain goat

That said, these engines are a gem on the highway and make complete sense if you are one of those who climb these hills only once in a blue moon. For folks who reside in (or frequent) the hills, DI it is! Reminds me of the ecstasy I experienced while driving a relative's Pajero (2.8 L DI) on similar ghats long back - bliss
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Old 1st June 2017, 10:04   #224
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Default Re: Review: The Force Gurkha 4x4

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The trouble with modern CRDI engines is that they are designed and tuned for Highway running. The stated HP is at higher RPM (CRDI can run at much higher RPM than DI). The low end torque in smaller engines is quite low and it is only after the turbo kicks in that torque improves. In a nutshell a 45HP 3L DI engine will outperform a 100HP 2.2L CRDI engine at low end, hence the problem with Scorpio and Thar climbing hills or pottering around slopes at low speeds.

Let us see how the new 100HP engine fares against the older DI one.
Tuning and GEARING also. I am thinking that the CRMV fuel average regs are taken at hwy speeds, causing some lazy thinking on the part of Indian auto manufacturers. They have gone to 3:73 crowns, down from the 4:30, 4:88, 5:38 ratios that made the old MM550 and older jeeps pull so well at low speeds e.g. hill climbing and driving off road, bad road.

Even a moderately powered jeep/SUV should be able to give you two low gears with real grunt along with respectable mid and high speed performance and hwy fuel average. That's my opinion right now, in lieu of any real knowledge! Manufacturers don't want to go to 6 -7 speed transmissions, manual trannys with overdrive. They want to GET BY with no or little tweaking to tranny or differentials, with no new demands on their suppliers...no new costs. I bet two rupees that a moderately powered jeep/suv could be designed giving both low end grunt and hwy economy.

And here is where we miss B.D. and his expertise. How do you meet BS4, BSx,
CRMV, and the customer's wish and need to climb hills? I dunno the answer to this.
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Old 1st June 2017, 11:13   #225
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Default Re: Review: The Force Gurkha 4x4

Yes, with more gears the vehicle can overcome the limitation of limited rev range. Look at large trucks. Their engines have a narrow power band, but they compensate it by having anywhere from 8 to 18 gears.

But that is a pipe dream, as designing and manufacturing a new gearbox is expensive and requires a few million copies to justify the development costs.

Any way, as I remember one member saying that in hills he drove his old Scorpio 2.6 in low range with not much penalty in FE. So if the low range is properly implemented then one can still potter around at low revs with adequate torque. Of course the best thing would be to have two low ranges, as some military trucks do - one for demanding situations and one for just getting more torque at low end.
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