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Old 29th March 2015, 23:29   #46
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Default Re: Never thought I'd build a Jeep! My MM540 story

Hi Everyone, went in for a tire upgrade over the weekend, from 31 inches to 35 inches. Two pictures attached for reference.

I think the Jeep will need more chopping of the body to fully articulate on these wheels. Rear is OK, but there is only a 1 inch gap between the front tire and front wheel-well on full side-lock.

But this is just from observation - city driving has not thrown up any issues but the real test will happen only during the next OTR.

Oh, and I forgot. My mechanic had forgotten to fully connect the exhaust and it was rattling but I kind of liked the throaty growl so have just removed all the "dholki's" and now just have a two feet straight pioe from the exhaust manifold to side of the body. It sounds damn nice now but any effect on performance? Does the lack of back-pressure reduce the pick-up in any way or has the free-flow improved the pick-up?

Any queries, suggestions or inputs around this or in general are most welcome.

Cheers!

p.s.
took the Jeep out for a spin today with my wifey riding shotgun, the Jeep is a head-turner for sure - the tires have made a hell lot of a difference. Lot of people - kids, women, men- all age brackets - stopped to stare, pass positive comments, give "thumbs up" - was good fun. And it hasn't even been painted yet!
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Never thought I'd build a Jeep! My MM540 story-20150329-11.26.22.jpg  

Never thought I'd build a Jeep! My MM540 story-20150329-11.13.52.jpg  


Last edited by manveet : 29th March 2015 at 23:40.
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Old 30th March 2015, 18:00   #47
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Default Re: Never thought I'd build a Jeep! My MM540 story

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Originally Posted by manveet View Post
Hi Everyone, went in for a tire upgrade over the weekend, from 31 inches to 35 inches. Two pictures attached for reference.
===========
And it hasn't even been painted yet!


Hi Manveet,

I have been following your thread and I must say, It has been a pleasure to follow your systematic and functionality oriented mods.

With your comments about further chopping the body to accommodate the larger tires, I just wanted to know what is the front and rear track of the axles that you are using on this Jeep.?

I would personally go for a wider axle width rather that further chopping the body as it would serve two purposes, firstly, it would increase the gap during full lock on the steering.

Secondly, with the raising of the Center of Gravity with the larger tires, it would not be a bad idea to increase the track width to make the Jeep more planted and stable.

Keep up the good work.

Regards,

L.o.R
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Old 30th March 2015, 20:00   #48
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Default Re: Never thought I'd build a Jeep! My MM540 story

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Originally Posted by lifeoffroad View Post
With your comments about further chopping the body to accommodate the larger tires, I just wanted to know what is the front and rear track of the axles that you are using on this Jeep.?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manveet
.. . around this time both axles were replaced by wider Mahindra Bolero Pik-Up's axles. Not sure what the width is though - any info on that will be most appreciated
Good question. I had asked the same question in my second post on this thread but nobody answered. The previous owner had replaced the 540 axles with wider axles of the Pik-Up, not sure of the exact width though. Any idea of what the Pik-Up's axle width is? I hate not knowing the technical specs of my own vehicle :(

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Originally Posted by lifeoffroad View Post
I would personally go for a wider axle width rather that further chopping the body as it would serve two purposes, firstly, it would increase the gap during full lock on the steering.

Secondly, with the raising of the Center of Gravity with the larger tires, it would not be a bad idea to increase the track width to make the Jeep more planted and stable.
Both points valid and taken.

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Originally Posted by lifeoffroad View Post
I have been following your thread and I must say, it has been a pleasure to follow your systematic and functionality oriented mods.
..
Keep up the good work.

Regards,
L.o.R
Thanks, glad you like it. And welcome to TBHP, hope to see you around here more often. Cheers!
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Old 30th March 2015, 20:24   #49
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Default Re: Never thought I'd build a Jeep! My MM540 story

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Originally Posted by manveet View Post
Good question. I had asked the same question in my second post on this thread but nobody answered. The previous owner had replaced the 540 axles with wider axles of the Pik-Up, not sure of the exact width though. Any idea of what the Pik-Up's axle width is? I hate not knowing the technical specs of my own vehicle :(

I am not certain, but AFAIK for Mahindra Maxx/Pickup series:

Front Track: 57"
Rear Track: 59"

You should be able to roughly identify them by simply measuring the distance between the Brake drums.

But if this is the case, there is no wider Mahindra axle that you can use. The axles for the pickup are the widest of the lot.

But considering that the issue is on full lock, if the 1" gap between the wheel and the fender or between wheel and the inner wheel well/ ladder chassis frame.

This should govern where to chop from.

Also, Before chopping, do try to measure the gaps on full lock+full flex of the suspension. Try using something like a RTI ramp, or if that is unavailable, try to drive on one side of a car wash service ramp.
This number would be different from when the Jeep is on flat ground.

Regards,

L.o.R
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Old 31st March 2015, 11:15   #50
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Default Re: Never thought I'd build a Jeep! My MM540 story

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Originally Posted by lifeoffroad View Post
.

But if this is the case, there is no wider Mahindra axle that you can use. The axles for the pickup are the widest of the lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by manveet View Post
Any idea of what the Pik-Up's axle width is? I hate not knowing the technical specs of my own vehicle :(

Please refer below list of width of different diffs in different jeeps over last few decades

1) CJ3B/4A - 48.5"
2) MM540/550, CL500 - 51"
3) NGCS (550, Thar CRDe, Bolero, pickup etc) - 57" front and 53" rear
4) NGCS (Thar Di and NGCS Major) - 53"
5) Mahindra FC - 58"

Manveet Ji: most probably your front diffs are 57" OKBJ and rear are 53 FFRA.

PS: Credit goes to Arka for above information.

Regards,
Shubhendra Singh
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Old 31st March 2015, 11:26   #51
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Default Re: Never thought I'd build a Jeep! My MM540 story

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Originally Posted by Shubhendra View Post
Manveet Ji: most probably your front diffs are 57" OKBJ and rear are 53 FFRA.

PS: Credit goes to Arka for above information.

Regards,
Shubhendra Singh
So I knew what OKBJ (Open Knuckle Ball Joint) is. Am sure this is what I have. And this is from the Pik-Up and not FC, so must be 57". Front is sorted.

Now about the Rear. Had no idea what FFRA was. Google got me here - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ve...-complete.html (It's a 'Jeep' Thing!" - Army Spec MM550 - Restoration in Bangalore - PHASE 1 COMPLETE)

So now how do I figure if I have Full Floating Rear Axle or Semi Floating Rear Axle? And about the width, there was an each side 2" track difference evident on the 31" wheels but with the new 35' wheels, it's difficult to say. Any specific photo I should take and share which will resolve the width and FFRA aspect w.r.t. the rear axle?
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Old 31st March 2015, 11:37   #52
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Default Re: Never thought I'd build a Jeep! My MM540 story

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Originally Posted by manveet View Post

So now how do I figure if I have Full Floating Rear Axle or Semi Floating Rear Axle? And about the width, there was an each side 2" track difference evident on the 31" wheels but with the new 35' wheels, it's difficult to say.
Manveet Ji,
FFRA have double bearing setup. refer below pic of you jeep and area which is circled in black, this is how you identify FFRA.
To identify SFRA, refer the link which you had posted in your previous response and you may see just a small red cap.

Never thought I'd build a Jeep! My MM540 story-20150329-11.26.22.jpg

i can confidently say that your rear diff is 53" by looking into few picture posted in previous pages.

Regards,
SHubhendra Singh
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Old 31st March 2015, 16:16   #53
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Default Re: Never thought I'd build a Jeep! My MM540 story

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Originally Posted by lifeoffroad View Post
But considering that the issue is on full lock, if the 1" gap between the wheel and the fender or between wheel and the inner wheel well/ ladder chassis frame. This should govern where to chop from.
The 1 inch gap is between wheel and fender, this pic will give you clarity - I have hashed out the area that needs to be chopped - solution looks simple to execute and I don't foresee any issue.

Never thought I'd build a Jeep! My MM540 story-20150331-08.40.49.jpg

Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeoffroad View Post
Also, Before chopping, do try to measure the gaps on full lock+full flex of the suspension. Try using something like a RTI ramp, or if that is unavailable, try to drive on one side of a car wash service ramp.This number would be different from when the Jeep is on flat ground.
Thanks, point taken. Will try this out during the next OTR. Like mentioned earlier, front is sorted, however I am now more worried about the rear. Here is my current setup - do you guys see an issue in the rear? If the tire articulates in the direction of the arrow then I'm safe but if it goes vertically up, then am in a soup as there is no more space to chop, so I may need to resort to spacers.

Never thought I'd build a Jeep! My MM540 story-20150331-16.09.51.jpg

Last edited by manveet : 31st March 2015 at 16:22.
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Old 31st March 2015, 21:11   #54
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Default Re: Never thought I'd build a Jeep! My MM540 story

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Thanks, point taken. Will try this out during the next OTR. Like mentioned earlier, front is sorted, however I am now more worried about the rear. Here is my current setup - do you guys see an issue in the rear? If the tire articulates in the direction of the arrow then I'm safe but if it goes vertically up, then am in a soup as there is no more space to chop, so I may need to resort to spacers.

Attachment 1355899
That is a good question.

Ideally, the wheel travels in a curved trajectory kinda like what you have drawn. But having said that, I still feel that the best course of action for you would be to max out the suspension and identify the problem areas.

Once that has been done, you can have a few options to choose from depending upon the areas identified.

For example, a simple body lift would increase clearances all around. And with an extreme rig as yours, I would definitely not rule out SPOA option either.

Out of curiosity, what was the price for the 35 inchers?

Regards,

L.o.R
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Old 7th April 2015, 22:01   #55
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Default Re: Never thought I'd build a Jeep! My MM540 story

So deposited the Jeep to denter once again. Moving the rear shackles and hence rear axle back by about 4.5 inches to make space for the rear wheel to articulate; this entails replacing the shortened pipes with longer ones. Chopping off 3-4 inches from the front fender to create some space there as well.

Somewhat OT : Any idea what is the optimal gear ratio on the MDI Turbo and 35" wheels should be, application a mix of cruising and low-end torque.

I have been told my XD3P comes with 4.88 ratio - I feel my low-end torque has reduced after moving to 35 inches, but this would improve once I move to the DI turbo due to its different dynamics - so don't need to change the crown-pinion right now. Is this understanding correct?

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Out of curiosity, what was the price for the 35 inchers?
These retail at about 16K-17K per tire.
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Old 8th April 2015, 10:50   #56
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Default Re: Never thought I'd build a Jeep! My MM540 story

[quote=manveet;3680626]

Somewhat OT : Any idea what is the optimal gear ratio on the MDI Turbo and 35" wheels should be, application a mix of cruising and low-end torque.

QUOTE]

Manveet Ji,
Switch to 4.27 to reach 70-80 on highway and have good low end torque (Di has loads of torque anyways) for offroading.

Regards,
Shubhendra
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Old 8th April 2015, 12:52   #57
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[quote=Shubhendra;3680861]
Quote:
Originally Posted by manveet View Post

Somewhat OT : Any idea what is the optimal gear ratio on the MDI Turbo and 35" wheels should be, application a mix of cruising and low-end torque.

QUOTE]

Manveet Ji,
Switch to 4.27 to reach 70-80 on highway and have good low end torque (Di has loads of torque anyways) for offroading.

Regards,
Shubhendra
Although technically Shubhendra sir is right but there is a certain amount of personal preference and driving style that applies to it.

I'd say that try a couple of otrs after the engine transplant and see how it suits you. Gear up or gear down as per your personal choice.

Regards,
L.o.R
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Old 8th April 2015, 20:05   #58
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Default Re: Never thought I'd build a Jeep! My MM540 story

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shubhendra View Post
Manveet Ji,
Switch to 4.27 to reach 70-80 on highway and have good low end torque (Di has loads of torque anyways) for offroading.
In your opinion my current ratio is 4.88. Is that correct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeoffroad View Post
Although technically Shubhendra sir is right but there is a certain amount of personal preference and driving style that applies to it.

I'd say that try a couple of otrs after the engine transplant and see how it suits you. Gear up or gear down as per your personal choice.
Point taken. Why waste money by changing things twice. I'll push this change to post-engine transplant.

Especially if Shubhendra can confirm that I am currently on 4.88.
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Old 9th April 2015, 10:32   #59
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In your opinion my current ratio is 4.88. Is that correct?
Manveet Ji,
550 used to come with 4.88 so there is a high possibility that its 4.88, i can not guarantee as too many things have changed in your Jeep and most of Jeeps in general get played with over a period of time. I have seen MM Classic with 4.27 whereas it should have been 5.38 and owner didnt have idea.....

[quote=lifeoffroad;3680985]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shubhendra View Post

Although technically Shubhendra sir is right but there is a certain amount of personal preference and driving style that applies to it.

I'd say that try a couple of otrs after the engine transplant and see how it suits you. Gear up or gear down as per your personal choice.
SIR,
I am not sir, neither i have theoretical knowledge nor i am aged enough

But your point definitely makes sense to try and match crown pinion ratio. If someone dont mind limited highway speed (60-65 kmph), 4.88 in Di engine is killer for rock crawling

Regards,
Shubhendra Singh
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Old 10th April 2015, 01:40   #60
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Default Re: Never thought I'd build a Jeep! My MM540 story

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeoffroad View Post
SIR,
I am not sir, neither i have theoretical knowledge nor i am aged enough

But your point definitely makes sense to try and match crown pinion ratio. If someone dont mind limited highway speed (60-65 kmph), 4.88 in Di engine is killer for rock crawling

Regards,
Shubhendra Singh

Point taken Shubhendra,

No Sir from now on Sir.

With the kinda mods Manveet is undertaking on this Jeep, I would not want to take it over 70 Kmph on the highway anyways, at least not with the standard brakes, steering and suspension geometry.

Too unsafe and unpredictable at speeds above that for our roads.

It is a purpose built offroader. Which brings me to the question:

@manveet:
When you started this project, did you have a certain type of offroading in mind? If so, what was it?

I ask this because in the world of purpose built offroaders, the design approach would be different for different terrains and events.

For Example, a rig designed for Mud bogging would not fair well on rock crawling trails and vis a versa.

Would love to know your thoughts before starting this project?

Regards,

L.o.R
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