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Old 10th November 2014, 14:19   #16
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Default Re: Tata Xenon XT (EX 4X4) - Ownership Experience

To keep the cost down, the parts for the New and Improved Xenon has to be sourced from existing parts bin of other vehicles.

Redesigning of every part will escalate the cost/price of the New Xenon.

Remember guys, "OUR" Bawa Ji is an "Expert" when it comes to use existing parts and platforms of the old/existing vehicles to come up with a new/hybrid vehicle, and that's the exact reason why he was brought over from MM to TATA.

So lets give him actual functional requirements and not just silly features list.

India is the ONLY market in the world where cost of the finished product is very important and to keep it low, there is no harm in utilizing the "Jugaad" in a very technical and professional manner to produce it.

Even executing a Jugaad takes brain power and skill, and TATA has lots of parts in its bins and few helping hands from JLR to produce a vehicle as desired by us Indians and to father another 4WD vehicle, trust no one other than our Bawa Ji.
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Old 10th November 2014, 17:44   #17
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Default Re: Tata Xenon XT (EX 4X4) - Ownership Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parm View Post
So lets give him actual functional requirements and not just silly features list.

India is the ONLY market in the world where cost of the finished product is very important and to keep it low, there is no harm in utilizing the "Jugaad" in a very technical and professional manner to produce it.
What is the difference between silly and functional? For you, it might be a feature and for another person, it would seem silly and vice versa.

Every market is price dependent, and pricing is definitely important. But if you see, many products (sometimes of inferior quality) are priced more in India than in western countries. The reasons could be many and is a topic for a different thread.

I detest the word Jugaad. IMO it is term used to pass off mediocre effort as something nice. You can count in your hands the number of designed in India products that are known for their high quality and superior design. It is time we come out of this "chalta hai" attitude and stop glorifying Jugaad.
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Old 10th November 2014, 19:02   #18
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Default Re: Tata Xenon XT (EX 4X4) - Ownership Experience

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Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
I detest the word Jugaad. IMO it is term used to pass off mediocre effort as something nice.
I wholeheartedly agree. I too hate that word. Low cost doesn't necessarily have to mean low quality. In fact, many of the innovations and improvements come when budgets are limited. Being in product development for over two decades, mostly with limited budget, I know this part very well.

If limited budgets lead to low quality product, then I would blame the creators of the product of lack of ingenuity. One should compromise on features, but never on quality.

The Mars Orbiter from ISRO is a great example of limited budget leading to innovation and ingenuity. Some call ISRO's effort to be Jugaad, it isn't. It is ingenuity based on very hardcore science. Jugaad wouldn't have worked so well very first time. Anybody who understands statistical analysis would know why.

Meanwhile, what comes out of Tata and Mahindra are generally Jugaads. I didn't know how bad until I started owning a Mahindra Jeep.

Therefore, really.... we don't need any more Jugaads. Please don't aim to make Jugaads saying people won't mind. Constantly tinkering kind owners might love it, but regular public or even regular BHPians will hate it.
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Old 12th November 2014, 13:21   #19
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

Dear DB Sir,

I am very happy to see such a thread from you.

I own a 1996 CL340 4WD for the last 10 years and have been an ardent off-roader for nearly initial 3 years.

My list of expectations.
1. Since I own a CL340, I am good with Single Cab model.
2. Weight: Should not exceed a curb weight of 1500-1600 Kgs.
3. Wheelbase: not to exceed 96 inches / 2440 mm
4. Engine Power to Weight Ratio: Atleast 90 Bhp / tonne
5. Engine Power: Minimum of 150 Bhp
6. Torque: Minimum 275 N.M
7. Transmission: Manual with 5/6 Forward and 1 Reverse
8. Axle Ratio Transmission: 4L of minimum 3:1 and Front/Rear at 4.1
9. Ground Clearance: Minimum 230 mm
10. Angle of Departure / Approach: Min of 37 Degrees / 41 Degrees
11. Suspension: Solid live axle
12. Brakes: All Discs with ABS and TC

In addition to the above would prefer a Dana 44 axle, 17/18 inch wheels and a minimum of 60 Litre fuel tank.If possible, TATA can provide a V6 Engine option too.

Considering the above, my expected on-road price is 15 Lakhs.
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Old 12th November 2014, 15:01   #20
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear all 4*4 enthusiasts - what is it that you would want in a Double Cab / Single Cab type of 4WD vehicle and how much money will you pay for it in India?

I mean weight / wheelbase / approach and departure angles / engine power to weight ratio / torque / transmission and axle ratio configuration / ground clearance / suspension configuration / brakes / preference for double cab or single cab / platform style / mechanical and styling upgrade options etc. I am starting with two attributes as given: 1) BS4. 2) White number plate.
Just came across your post and I must say, it made for some interesting reading.

Most of the requirements have been covered in earlier replies.

The Toyota Hilux is an excellent point of reference, but Isuzu pickups (bakkies, as they are called in South Africa) are not bad either.

http://www.isuzu.co.za/double-cab-overview

At the risk of repeating what has been mentioned already, sharing my two cents/wishlist (with double cab being the preferred option as it appears more practical) -
  • A driver of average height e.g. 5'8" should have a commanding view with respect to extremities of the bonnet and the road ahead
  • Reduce length of the vehicle (especially rear loading bay) by at least two feet and shorten the wheelbase by a proportionate amount, assuming you are using the xenon as a base platform.
  • Increase ground clearance further at least by 4-5 cm by using larger rims (17 inch), corresponding tyres. 200 mm GC seems pretty minimal since even the fiat avventura sports higher GC.
  • This should help the cause of increased approach/departure/break-over angles
  • Approach angle should be greater than or equal to 30 degrees.
  • Departure & break-over angles should be greater than or equal to 24 degrees.
  • interiors of the vehicle need a complete redesign using hard-wearing materials. Please do not share interiors with a 207 as it is not targeted to cater to rural/agrarian needs (I meant no offence to anyone). The interiors should resemble that of a modern day SUV and must have multiple 12 V power outlets to accommodate laptop power adapters/cellphone chargers, a decent "info"-tainment system with bluetooth capabilities, lots of cubby holes to accommodate cellphones, large water-bottles etc. Ergonomic issues should be non-existent i.e. A/B/C pedal should not be awkwardly positioned with reference to the drivers seat & steering wheel.
  • power windows, effective AC is a must. No beige/light grey dashboard material please, as they get soiled too easily.
  • glove box should be spacious & dashboard should have room to accommodate additional switches if owner chooses to install additional lamps/accessories
  • rear seats should be comfortable for adults for extended durations (and not reserved mainly for kids)
  • Torque - at least 300 Nm @ 1600 - 2400 rpm
  • Power - 140 Bhp (more would be better)
  • good quality body cladding as in the fiat avventura would help avert scratches on the paint
  • scuff-plates on all door sills
  • manually actuated shift on the fly Borg & Warner transfer case
  • free wheeling/lockable hubs at the front (e.g. lambda)
  • lockable differentials
  • pricing should be between the Thar & the 4 x 4 scorpio
  • guard plates for sump, gear-box/transfer case, fuel tank
  • loading area should have multiple drainage holes and covered with rubberised/hard wearing bed-liners
  • existing suspension, brakes, axle ratios of the xenon seems adequate on paper, but will wait for experts to share their views
  • engine, transmission/suspension, electricals should have bulletproof reliability as in a Toyota. There should not be any rattle/creaks/unwanted engine transmission noise and gear lever & control pedals should not suffer from unwanted vibration.

Last edited by bikertillidie : 12th November 2014 at 15:20. Reason: Typo
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Old 12th November 2014, 15:39   #21
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

I just want to put reference of legendary classic LC79! Even 70% of this will make good vehicle!
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Old 12th November 2014, 16:58   #22
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

I like to have vacuum actuators for 4x4 shiftier & diff locks.
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Old 12th November 2014, 17:26   #23
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

my wishlist for the double cab:

wheelbase 2800-3000 mm

approach and departure angles: 40 - 35

weight - <1800 KGS

engine power to weight ratio atleast 80-100 bhp per ton

torque: max torque 400 NM at 1600-2200 RPM

ground clearance: atleast 220 MM

transmission: manual transfer case for 4X4 - no electronic

suspension configuration: leaf springs (F&R) optional IFS(F) leaf springs(R)

brakes: 4 wheel disc with ABS standard

preference: double cab

platform style - ladder on frame

mechanical and styling upgrade options
-standard factory fitted HVAC
-large wheel wells to accommodate easy tyre upsizing
-easy bolt on suspension upgrade/lifts
-Optional factory fitted rear LSD
- rear bench with recline option and optional independent seats (will increase the cabin size)

- organ type accelerator pedal
- all black/dark interiors


fuel tank - 75 liters

OTR - 8lakhs white plate BS IV complaint
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Old 12th November 2014, 17:41   #24
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

I was in the verge of buying a Xenon DB almost a year back. Did a test drive also. However ended up not buying it ( even after liking it ) due to reasons below

1) Length - almost at 5130 mm, it was not going to fit in my garage. Anything less than 4.6M and i would be owning one now
I even contemplated buying one and then chopping the rear overhang, but later decided against it

2) Second row of seat - too upright. Not sure why was it designed that way considering that there was enough loading area and could have extended a bit more

3) Had to go through a court order for getting a white board - family not keen to go through all the trouble

4) lack of accessories - accessories like the bed liner, cross bars were unknown to the dealership and i am told that I will have to get it installed from outside the dealership

Still I envy any xenon that I see on the roads and wish I had it in a smaller avatar. ( Mahindra genio was out of question as it was a flat bed and reminds more of an industrial vehicle)

Thanks

George V
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Old 12th November 2014, 17:45   #25
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

DB Sir, if I could get the TL Single Cab 4x4, even with the 2.0L TCIC, I'll be happy ! But unfortunately, this one is available only as a Yellow board. The one grouse I do have is that there is no space behind the front seats for anything - not even a bag, forget a suitcase or ability to recline the seat some.
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Old 12th November 2014, 18:28   #26
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

pretty surprised that nobody has asked for option of rigid axle with spring suspension. i wonder why.
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Old 12th November 2014, 19:37   #27
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

Here is a suggestion for the rural market it is along the lines of Mahindra Suvari or the Tatamobile people carrier-

1-Single Cab
2-Whiteboard
3-4x4
4-long sideway facing foldable bench seats. If the seats are folded it becomes a loadcarrier. Put down the seats and it carries 6-10 people. It can have a removable soft top.
5- size and engine the same as current Xenon.

In rural areas Marshall 750 DP, suvari and the tatamobile fitted this bill. Now the only one that comes remotely close is Thar DI, but the loadbed is too short and small.

The Xenon 2 door will be an ideal fit.

At the minimum give us -
Todays single cab xenon
4x4
Whiteboard.


Looking forward to great things.

Last edited by KMT : 12th November 2014 at 19:46. Reason: Typo
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Old 12th November 2014, 23:02   #28
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

The photo of the smaller single cab with extension has been made by a fellow TBhpian.

The rest are just examples of multi utility of the Xenon.
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Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4-tx2.jpg  

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Old 13th November 2014, 10:05   #29
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

DB Sir. Sincerely hope the expectation vs reality this time around is upto customer satisfaction. There is this huge huge market in Rural india and in my area every household either has a Jeep or a Maruti van.

Maddy

Lastly pic for a example. Dont fall in this mistake.
Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4-swing.jpg
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Old 13th November 2014, 13:01   #30
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

My expectation on finial out look. Short bonnet, high seating position, lots of luggage space behind the seat & lastly not to long cargo space(no split in between cargo & cabin).

Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4-vwt5tristar1.jpg
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