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Old 13th November 2014, 15:28   #31
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

Dear DB Sir & BHPians,

A big Hello to all of you!

With trembling hands I write this post as I am a novice with the technicalities and the requisites of being a BHPian, However here it goes.

Without jumping to the conclusion that the opinions are requested for the the Xenon/ TL/ 207 Platform, Here are the points I'd like to make;

1. The intended usage of the vehicle decides the parameters/ specifications of Automobile.
2. The price point comes in play (is it affordable to the buyer).
3. Will the user be able to live with the vehicle. (Maintenance/ Running Costs)

If I'm supposed to buy a vehicle with my hard earned money, Then my most important and intended usage will be a comfortable vehicle with go-anywhere capabilities, Now this is perspective as I don't intend to go for Dune bashing/ Mud plugging and Offroading events such as RFC. The biggest attribute shall be a reliable but a fun to drive vehicle.

The requisites are as follows; Not necessarily in the order of the opening post;

Most Important: Massive Road presence.

Weight : Close enough to maintain a P-to-W Ratio at 100bhp/ Sturdy enough to support the torque and power, and light enough to tow/ self recover in God forbidden cases of breakdown. Equally distributed between Front & Rear axles.

Wheelbase : Designed to provide stability, during high speed lane changes on the Highways.

Approach and departure angles : Designed to approach a 12" Vertical wall comfortably and without comprising on the front looks and departure on the same parameters.

Engine power to weight ratio : 100bhp/ton

Torque : Designed enough to push the vehicle (GVW) from a Standstill on a 35 Deg gradient.

Transmission and axle ratio configuration : Transmission ratios maybe kept on a ratio where the First & Second gears are Torquey and Short, Third, Fourth & Fifth maybe Long.

Axle ratios to maintain a humming engine at higher speeds

Ground clearance : At least 200 mm

Suspension configuration : Wishbone Setup Front & Multi link Rear

Brakes : Discs Front and rear With ABS, EBD and considering it would have a load bed Brake Assist

Preference for double cab or single cab : A double cab as it would be used for travels and mild offroading.

Platform style : Body on Hydro formed Ladder Chassis

Mechanical and styling upgrade options:

i. Optional mounting point on the load bed for roll over bar (Duly supported by the frame and not by the sheet metal of the Bed)
ii. A sturdy bumper capable of Holding a Winch for self recovery.
iii. A lockable lid for the Load bed.
iv. Factory supplied Lined Bed. (Optional)
v. Manual Locking Hubs.
vi. Roof Rails for mounting ski racks (Self load retaining capacity of 60-70 Kgs)
vii. Manually adjustable headlamps.
viii. Comfortable to seat Five Adults.
ix. Provision for fitment of a Tow Hook
x. Provision for additional light on the roof
xi. Provision for a Canopy over the load bed.
xii. A separate lockable toolbox in the load bed, Open able from the side & Top.

Price willing to pay will be 10-12 Lacs On road.

That's all I can think about what I need from MY vehicle, I understand that every individual is unique that's why the requisites will be unique. I am still waiting for a vehicle that meets my list of requisites. So hoping that this post may bring me closer to my dream vehicle.

Till then Cheers!!!
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Old 14th November 2014, 01:54   #32
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

I want a Zenon based vehicle like this, with a rear suspension based on the Tata Sierra and, if possible, a coil sprung rigid axle front suspension. The interior can be flexi between passenger and load. The vehicle wheelbase to not exceed the single cab Xenon (to accomodate 4 doors) or even be shorter.

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Last edited by 1100D : 14th November 2014 at 02:00.
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Old 14th November 2014, 06:22   #33
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
(well, here goes for the second time, let me start by asking). .
Dear all 4*4 enthusiasts - what is it that you would want in a Double Cab / Single Cab type of 4WD vehicle and how much money will you pay for it in India?

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
Another Social Media Marketing gimmick?

Seems like marketing skills far outweigh engineering skills.

While at M&M, you started a similar thread on the Thar, and while people poured their hearts out, an existing LHD product was shoddily converted to RHD and launched as a NEW vehicle. All shortcomings of said vehicle was attributed to CMVR regulations.

What's the possibility of Tata introducing a new platform, and how much influence are YOU going to have in it's conception to offer such suggestions?

Please clarify before enthusiasts are milked for their passion.

Cheers
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Old 14th November 2014, 08:01   #34
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1100D View Post
I want a Zenon based vehicle like this, ...
@1100D, how different is that from the Movus ? Will it suffice if the Movus was made into a 4x4 ?
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Old 14th November 2014, 09:45   #35
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

At the outset IMHO this platform should also be "A CONFIGURABLE" platform to suit on'e taste in terms of features.

Secondly, if this is going to be based on the Xenon platform, then please seriously evaluate the social acceptance of this vehicle, I used to drive a Nissan Navara in Malaysia and my family simply refused to be Photographed in that vehicle as it resembles a Milk van. I really do not know how many will echo similar sentiments but this is a fact.

Thirdly, The Sierra had a Cult like crowd following it, guys of my age bracket still drool over it, maybe a pointer for you for the hard top version.
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Old 14th November 2014, 10:27   #36
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

Hi BD Sir,

I would suggest to take cues from the Australian Ute's, except a little more rugged. ie, vehicles which looks like, and can be a car/SUV and can go to malls, and which can also pick up coffee and rubber from the farm and carry sacks to the dealer/to store.

Since the pick up will be accommodating 'the wife' , it needs to be comfortable, safe, head turningly good looking and for the occasional nights when she drives, good ergonomics, easy to handle and drive with enough power/torque and throttle response like a proper SUV.

Hence:

1. Good Seats. (Safari?)
2. Proper Ergonomics.
3. Good Looks (Xenon)
4. Good Handling (Strome like front Suspension and Rack and Pinion Steering)
5. Good Power (2.2 Dicor engine?)
6. AC, Power Steering, Power Windows, Central Locking.
7. Safety Equipment. Optional ABS, Airbags
8. Music and Speakers
9. White board.

Since the vehicle will be driven to the farm.


1. Easy and Cheap to maintain.
2. Tougher tie rod ends, and longer lasting bushes, than the strome.
3. Good Ground Clearance.
4. As short as possible, but, as long as needed.
5. 3/4th of bolero camper rear loading area.
6. Rear leaf springs.
7. Rust proof.

For the occasional 4WD fun:

1. Approach and Departure angles like a Scorpio without bumpers.
2. Bring in factory fitted Lockers, atleast optional like the Ghurkha.
3. Even though IFS, need to fit atleast 31" tyres. More the better.
4. Proper underbody protection.
5. Manual Lever Shift 4WD Transfer Case.
6. Dials for almost everything. Temperature, Oil Pressure, Tacho, etc..etc..
7. Proper recovery attachments.
8. Please with proper final drive ratio. Not tuned for FE alone.

For the occasional touring requirements:

1. Nice cruising ability.
2. Top Speed of atleast 180kmph.
3. Comfortable, not name sake, rear seats, when folded should double as storage space for a hell lot of stuff.
4. Dead pedal.
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Old 14th November 2014, 10:56   #37
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

For the price at which the vehicle is being sold today (XENOT XT 4x4, 2.2 Dicor), customer needs to be treated well. He expects a comfortable luxury in the vehicle. I don't understand the economics of Xenon.
- An Aria with the same 2.2 ltr engine (in-fact the upgraded one) and a lot more bells and whistles (even base model) is available at lower price.
- A 3.0 ltr model with the same chassis, component, LSD, 4x4 is available at a much lower price.

How do you arrive at the price of Xenon XT 2.2 4x4. Customer need the right value for money. TATA's are no where near the position where they can charge a premium on exclusivity.

I am glad to see someone talking about this vehicle otherwise, I have always looked like a fool at the Tata Dealers asking details and Test Drives of a Xenon XT since last 1 year. At last I could manage to get a test drive with one dealer 3 months back, but the small issues kept me away from putting my money on the vehicle. I am still considering the vehicle, if the below issues are sorted. (Applicable to double cab, arched back version).

1. 2nd row seat need to be better, not so upright, improved padding, center arm rest, usb port
2. Some space behind the rear seat, like a space cab from Isuzu. can be utilized as small lockable area and for decent speakers.
3. Better interior. My Nano feels more upmarket than Xenon. Just what you have in Aria will do.
4. Disc breaks all around, ABS and EBD (Good to have)
5. At least front Airbags standard
6. The new Dicor engine from Aria with flatter torque curve. Would have loved to have 400 NM on this.

Contrary to what others have mentioned, I am not in favour of reducing the length of the vehicle. It is what gives the character to this vehicle. What the vehicle needs is a better execution for approach and departure angles and weight distribution. At least for an XT (arched back), owners are not going to carry tons of loads.
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Old 14th November 2014, 11:10   #38
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

Quote:
Originally Posted by condor View Post
@1100D, how different is that from the Movus ? Will it suffice if the Movus was made into a 4x4 ?
No This is different, entirely. Movus' body is entirely messed up, the windscreen/A-pillar rake, the rear C-pillar, everything is different (Iwould prefer the original Sumo over Movus anyday). Besides, this is a little shorter than Movus/Grande. All the angles are different.

The Idea is to get as close as possible to a Modern day Sierra, with Zenon styling (Front end, Skin panels and everything) and 4-doors to increase its appeal (there has to be a market after all)

Although Movus uses the same platform and this can probably benefit from Movus' Chassis (apart from the Leaf sprung rear suspension to be swapped with Sierra based rear).

Yesterday night I wasn't looking at it too much, but there can be two little variances to make it more close to what the Sierra would have been (with 4-doors)


Just the B-pillar changed to Body colour from the previous version
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Larger rear window section and a top blackening to give that Sierra type rear window effect.

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And No, I dont want a pickup truck.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gthang View Post
Another Social Media Marketing gimmick?

Seems like marketing skills far outweigh engineering skills.

While at M&M, you started a similar thread on the Thar, and while people poured their hearts out, an existing LHD product was shoddily converted to RHD and launched as a NEW vehicle.
It would be worthwhile to analyse where did the so called "Existing LHD Product" originate from. Thar was definitely a stepping stone has spawned a Genre of vehicles in India (Irrespective of its shortcomings). Besides, there are people on the forum who had worked with him to know what his handicap was. So lets not flag this down.

Last edited by 1100D : 14th November 2014 at 11:18.
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Old 14th November 2014, 17:03   #39
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

The wish list from us is increasing day by day and such features don't even exist in the flag ship vehicles (Storme/Aria) of TATA and they are 12 lakhs plus vehicles.

Anyway, TATA has turned around the loss making JLR and I wish to see them doing the same in India with their own range of TATA vehicles.

Safari/Storme/Aria/Sumo/Sierra/Movus/Xenon are all SUVs and some even 4WD vehicles, and I am sure with having such a vast profile of vehicles to cater to the Indian customer, I wish to see TATA improving their marketing boys, A.S.S. and the price to match the VFM cost of the vehicle.

TATA has always taken the lead in introducing and opening up the segments with vehicles like Tatamobile, TL, Sierra, Sumo, Safari but still got left behind by others. I would like to ask the following questions:

1. What went wrong?

2. Why they got left behind?

3. Why they could not improvise and catch up?

and finally

4.what is the initiative now to pull up their socks and get their act together?
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Old 14th November 2014, 19:34   #40
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

At least I wished Safari Storme be based on Xenon design wise which did not happen.

Just give us a Sierra with Xenon front. For the hardcore off-roaders', give them a loading bay at the back instead of that real big glass. oh TATA already has! why not launch it here?


Image courtesy: Google

And yes, technical expectations and feature lists are already shared by fellow members
or why not give us something like what Lada has (Nuvo/Nivo?) in RU, at less than 5 Lacs OTR India? Is it really that difficult even for TATA to manage?
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Old 15th November 2014, 18:10   #41
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

Convert TATA into TOYOTA.

this post was made with a certain purpose in mind. Which is that the end product should preferably not be a Jugaad like the Mahindra Thar. Common parts bin with legacy models should not be an excuse to dumb down quality of material and components. Though the platform is desirable and especially advertised through 'focus groups' on public forums.

More focus should be to build dependable platforms like the HiLux or Land Cruiser rather than jumble up some contraption and let customers repent at each minor shortcoming, one at a time.

Last edited by lurker : 15th November 2014 at 18:12.
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Old 15th November 2014, 23:54   #42
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker View Post
Convert TATA into TOYOTA.

this post was made with a certain purpose in mind. Which is that the end product should preferably not be a Jugaad like the Mahindra Thar. Common parts bin with legacy models should not be an excuse to dumb down quality of material and components. Though the platform is desirable and especially advertised through 'focus groups' on public forums.

More focus should be to build dependable platforms like the HiLux or Land Cruiser rather than jumble up some contraption and let customers repent at each minor shortcoming, one at a time.
Xenon doesn't have sales volumes to justify a Brand New platform. Its best to utilize a platform from one of the existing one in the inventory to keep the final price at a desirable levels.

Hilux and LC have been in the existence in the field for decades and now they have established themselves as the benchmarks.

Best bet for Our Beloved Bawa Ji is to do a better job compared to what he did in MM. I am sure when he shifted to TATA, he must have negotiated his freedom to work rather than his package!
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Old 16th November 2014, 11:27   #43
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

Assuming this will be a 4x4 vehicle with off-road capabilities similar to Thar, but with enough space for the family & luggage to carry. I agree with most of the inputs here concerning Engine, Transmission & power train, just adding front & rear Lsd’s with manual difflocks. I would like to suggest other features, though less significant they can be provided as optional or in the high spec variants. Boot should have a foldable/lockable & waterproof covering. Please do not leave boot coverless. At the end of the cabin, on top of the boot an exterior light to be provided for illumination. A foldable step at the rear end of the vehicle. As a 4x4 vehicle with capabilities to go places, steering operated turn lights are required to illuminate those tight turns, this feature is common in Range rovers & other luxury cars, but surprisingly many 4x4 manufacturers have overlooked it.
Lastly, Simple, clean, minimalistic Exterior design with good proportions will go down the history as a classic. My references for Boot design are from ford F150, exterior design are from Volkswagen Amarok. Finally the whole product must reflect its designed & produced in 2014-2015
Dear Mr “DHABHAR.BEHRAM” Thank you for the opportunity provided, Happy designing & manufacturing.
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Old 16th November 2014, 20:35   #44
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

Well the technical experts here have already given good suggestions on how the vehicle should be and I fully agree with their thoughts. My thoughts are more on to make it a moderate commercial success. (It will never be a hit as a 4x4 is preferred by a handfull of people.

I risk going too much overboard from the topic and with my thoughts:

1) The new vehicle should look quite different from Xenon to first make a mark in the market. Remember for Thar the base platform was a Jeep or a off-roader and so it was accepted well.

But if you choose Xenon it runs a risk of another load carrier which might not go well with the end customers. We all know what happened with Indica Vista. It was nearly a completely new vehicle but still was taken by general public as another beefed up Indica. Again Indica was known not for being a family vehicle but instead a CAB, so wrong platform chosen as a base for external aesthetic design.

Although the vehicle was quite good in space, comfort etc but still did not sell well as it should have blame it to perception. Indian market is driven by perceptions.

2) Go a little bit overboard to give it a butch look. XUV front end design was accepted well in Indian market. It should look 4 years ahead of what present market is. Xenon itself looks good but you have to make it a killer in looks. It should depict masculinity, strength, evil intentions in the design. Very aggressive ahead of market styling is required for it to sell. Remember semi-rural people and Guntha mantri's should like it. Target Bolero users.

3) Go overboard but do not loose on proportions.

4) Create a new segment out of this vehicle to attaract mass market usage. Might be a new name

5) Have a 4x2 version for mass junta to buy.
6) Have ABS and airbags at least as an option in all variants.
7) Interiors can be simple but attaractive and rugged.
8) Make the vehicle comfortable for semi-rural roads. Market the pure-off road suspension setup as an optional accessory.
9) Have accessories such as winch, Navigational tab etc...
10) Last but not the least at least give enough space in doors to carry a 1 litre water bottle.
11) Most important keep the weight and the turning radius down.
12) Do not compromise on the low end torque and driveability.

Other points have already been covered by experts here.
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Old 17th November 2014, 09:24   #45
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

BD Sir, I'd like to make a small point.

The lifestyle that we have today is very different from the past. We work and slog it out all through the week and then have some time out at the weekend.
This is the time where we want to do everything. Go to some off-road location, spend time with family, pets and enjoy a nice meal at a good distant restaurant.

Now to do this we need a go anywhere vehicle. While some may claim this can be done in any SUV, there are issues like reliability, comfort, space, size etc. with any SUV in the sub-20L bracket.

A SUV which would tackle these issues would be a winner and a sure shot for super sales.

Lets take an accumulation of things:

- Engine like the Scorpio's 2.2L with great Low end and good highway power.
- A good sorted suspension with IFS in front and multilink rear with Dampers on the harder side to make the ride pliant. Especially the rebound damping.
- A live rear axle and front CV joints to combine with the IFS.
- The front IFS members to be forged parts and not stamped parts like the current stock.
- Creature comforts like power windows and climate control and decent leg room in the rear.
- Ergonomic design in the interior with a real check from a decent sized person. (Not a disaster like placing power window switches where the elbow is placed)

- Not saving (Cost Cutting) those Rs.2-3 for parts. (You know that is what you save for small parts which lead to bad experience for the customer. Ask your suppliers to save in transport and logistics and material handling and not for product quality or material quality!)

- The vehicle should be engineered so well that it requires services ever 15000 KMS and not earlier. Make it reliable. Make sure your parts have reliability which is repeatable and there is not much difference in quality over time. These suppliers are also supplying to big names like Toyota, Ford, JLR, Isuzu which proves that they can provide consistent reliability.

- Don't let number crunchers run the show this time like your last project which they restricted. KRAs are a very bad thing for projects which are close to the heart.

With these I think you'll be able to make this as the primary vehicle for most people. In fact much more than previously. This might also turn around the SUV fortunes for TATA. They are going down is quite a fashion. With inside industry stating that Tata might be out of Private SUV segment in the coming years completely. 800 Vs 5000-6000!!

Last edited by navpreet318 : 17th November 2014 at 09:29.
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