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Old 18th November 2014, 08:49   #46
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

Lets be practical while giving out our wish list to Bawa Ji to make the most desirable pickup at the most affordable price.

Lets for a while look at what MM makes:

1. MM Getaway
2. Bolero Camper
3. Genio/Xylo

All the above three has their double and single cabin versions.

The question is, Why Tata is struggling to sell it's one and only one pick up?
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Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4-mahindrapickuplarge_21.jpg  

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Last edited by Parm : 18th November 2014 at 08:50.
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Old 20th November 2014, 19:41   #47
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

It appears that the Australian version of the Xenon already caters to a majority of items in our wishlist.

Sources -

http://www.caradvice.com.au/256503/tata-xenon-review/
http://www.caradvice.com.au/256361/t...990-driveaway/
http://www.tatamotors.com.au/vehicles/xenon/
http://www.tatamotors.com.au/vehicle...truck-concept/

There are some rather uncharitable remarks posted on the first two websites which ridicule the vehicle, its ambitious pricing, quality issues and perhaps, justifiably so.

But in my humble view, most of these flaws can be rectified if TML management has the "intent/will" to do so. A radical alteration of the looks may not be justified in view of costs involved (changing dies for body panels can be rather expensive).

Achieving quality levels/design maturity comparable to the Toyota Hilux might be a concept alien to TML, but they have come a long way owing to competitive pressure/regulatory compulsions/myriad other reasons..

Purely from a features perspective, the vehicle seems to have a lot going for it and all the required components are readily available in TML's parts bin.

Question is - Is TML management keen on launching this version in India (and hopefully avoid pricing the vehicle out of reach of prospective customers. Case in point - Aria when it was first launched in 4x4 avatar)?

I guess, we will just have to wait and watch.

Below is a summary of what I found in public domain without any bias towards standard/optional features/accessories.

Of course, the length and turning radius of the Xenon is a big disadvantage (apart from the limited ground clearance) which is not shown in below table.

Perhaps, the chassis of the single cab version can be modified to accommodate a dual cab platform (with a corresponding reduction in the loading area) and still achieve M1 classification.
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Last edited by bikertillidie : 20th November 2014 at 19:57.
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Old 20th November 2014, 23:37   #48
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

Another interesting find -

ANCAP crash test results -

The structural integrity of the 2013 dual-cab seems preserved even after the crash.

http://www.ancap.com.au/crashtestrecord?Id=586

Last edited by bikertillidie : 20th November 2014 at 23:47. Reason: Typo
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Old 21st November 2014, 00:32   #49
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

Just like the Thar, most people will want a Classic looking vehicle with slightly modern mechanicals. Two vehicles come to mind:
1. Land Rover Defender: Tata owns Land Rover. So why not launch an older Defender with one of Tata's existing engines.
2. Nissan Jonga: Just buy the dies and tooling from VFJ and build the Jonga with a any existing Tata engine and 5 speed gearbox. Tata has already gone this route with the Winger.
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Old 21st November 2014, 10:25   #50
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Live To Jive View Post
Just like the Thar, most people will want a Classic looking vehicle with slightly modern mechanicals.
Which people are "most people"? Who does Tata think will buy this vehicle? If Tata has its eyes on the international market then who knows what muffin B.D. will take out of the oven. He has to compromise with his corporate culture. To paraphrase an old adage, "A camel is a horse designed by marketing and accountants."

Maybe B.D. can pull a rabbit out of a hat and give us a thumper. Let's hope so.
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Old 21st November 2014, 11:35   #51
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Live To Jive View Post
Just like the Thar, most people will want a Classic looking vehicle with slightly modern mechanicals. Two vehicles come to mind:
1. Land Rover Defender: Tata owns Land Rover. So why not launch an older Defender with one of Tata's existing engines.

The Defender is among my all time favourites.

But the all aluminium body panels will lead to a price tag which is beyond reach for most people. Hence, manufacturing such a vehicle in India may prove viable only if one targets overseas markets.
With stringent regulations on safety & emissions being introduced in all markets, it may not be a very cost effective/feasible proposition to make the required changes in the current model.
The exact date of its demise remains a matter of conjecture, but in all likelihood, we may soon see a "landy" resembling a Range Rover Evoque with a monocoque chassis

http://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-new...-ar160712.html
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-24446070
http://www.nancap.com/?p=2271


Quote:
Originally Posted by Live To Jive View Post
2. Nissan Jonga: Just buy the dies and tooling from VFJ and build the Jonga with a any existing Tata engine and 5 speed gearbox. Tata has already gone this route with the Winger.
The Nissan Patrol derived Jonga has a cult following and I have seen some dieselised Jongas kitted out with refurbished 1210 truck engines.
But the recent experiment by VFJ to launch Jongas equipped with Hino diesel engines in the civilian market has been a failure.
Again, complying with safety/emission norms would be a challenge.
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Old 21st November 2014, 13:54   #52
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

Quote:
Originally Posted by bikertillidie View Post
...the Australian version of the Xenon...
The Xenon on display across the Flinders Street Railway Station in Melbourne, in June this year. No one seemed to be even remotely curious about it.

Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4-xenon3.jpg

Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4-xenon1.jpg

Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4-xenon2.jpg
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Old 21st November 2014, 16:26   #53
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

Thanks for raising this SS-Traveller.

A review by an Australian magazine has highly commended the new Ford Ranger (despite it's poor fuel economy).

http://www.caradvice.com.au/249408/u...swagen-amarok/

The badge & reputation (as well as target population it is intended for) does matter.

Last edited by bikertillidie : 21st November 2014 at 16:37. Reason: Line added
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Old 21st November 2014, 16:54   #54
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

>> No one seemed to be even remotely curious about it.

I guess nothing, everyone ain't seen before ! The model is neither classic enough to elicit the oohs-aah's from the classics connoisseurs nor is it modern or retro enough to attract the Gen-X crowd.

Now speaking about classics, why not take a look at the Merc-G Wagen 460 and do a real Gurkha on the Force Motors crowd. I guess the Sumo is a derivative of this school. Would it be possible to tinker around the Sumo, make it a bit more shorter, narrower and a bit more leaner/tighter/meaner and see what emerges.
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Old 21st November 2014, 17:30   #55
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker View Post
>> The model is neither classic enough to elicit the oohs-aah's from the classics connoisseurs nor is it modern or retro enough to attract the Gen-X crowd.

Now speaking about classics, why not take a look at the Merc-G Wagen 460 and do a real Gurkha on the Force Motors crowd. I guess the Sumo is a derivative of this school. Would it be possible to tinker around the Sumo, make it a bit more shorter, narrower and a bit more leaner/tighter/meaner and see what emerges.
Now, this is a really interesting proposition. And the armed forces have been using 4x4 versions of the sumo for ages.
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Old 21st November 2014, 18:35   #56
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

Found an youtube video which shows what happens when a G Wagen crashes into a wall ..

I doubt whether a rebadged sumo can survive it though ...

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Old 21st November 2014, 18:35   #57
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDan View Post
Which people are "most people"?
The people posting on this thread. More or less the same people who posted on the Thar thread and based on whose suggestions, the Thar was made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bikertillidie View Post
But the all aluminium body panels will lead to a price tag which is beyond reach for most people.
Then how about a vehicle with a steel body but the looks of a Defender?

Quote:
But the recent experiment by VFJ to launch Jongas equipped with Hino diesel engines in the civilian market has been a failure. Again, complying with safety/emission norms would be a challenge.
If the Thar could be built to comply, then why not a modernized Jonga?
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Old 21st November 2014, 22:59   #58
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1. Building a Defender having a steel body - It's TMLs call. Not sure if dies used for stamping aluminium body panels can be reused with steel panels.
2. In case of the Thar, the building blocks were already in existence. For example : BS4 scorpio/DI engine, NGCS chassis used by the bolero, MM550 body etc. Although, the jonga can probably given a full make over, would it be cost effective? Would it sell in sufficient numbers to warrant such investment? Not sure....
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Old 21st November 2014, 23:37   #59
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

I have been waited to see what B.D would post after reading so many post. But nothing as yet.
Xenon is a good platform.
1. just make it reliable.
2. Better streeing feel, rack and pinion system, May be from the storme.
3. little more comfy rear seat for the crew cab version
4. disc brakes all round with ABS.
5. And may be good suspension.
As for power till you guys get good gear boxes getting more power won't work if the vehicle eats through the boxes. Sumo Di and 207Di have been know for gearbox failures, in resent past.
Why can't the Grande's engine be used in the whole range including the XENON crew-cab luxury 4x4 [ yes that's the name for the 3.0l truck with 4x4].If the grande can be priced so low , I think the engine cost is not that much and can be used in the truck with same tune, why the dated old engine in the truck?
And please price it right a 12 L plus 4x4 from TATA does not sell, case in point the XT version and storme 4x4.
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Old 21st November 2014, 23:51   #60
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Default Re: Wishlist: Single / Double Cab 4x4

I think we are mixing up our target markets here and maybe should focus on one market. The international market is very different from the Indian market when it comes to pick up trucks. For Indians, a pick up is a work horse and not a lifestyle vehicle. According to me what Tata needs to do is create a market for it. Use the product that they sell in the Australian market and create a niche for themselves here before the international player get in. Now that Isuzu is here, it's barely a matter of time before the other superstars of the pick up industry enter India. After all it is one of the largest growing automobile (personal and commercial) market i the world. With traction control and better interior ergonamics and technology the Xenon can work wonders in the growing lifestyle/SUV demand in India. They just require very strong marketing which has been a weak point of Tata.

As for the international market, well Tata doesn't have the oomph or the quality to compete against the Japanese and aren't cheap enough to compete against the chinese. Which while does put in a niche of itself, doesn't really bode well for the growth of the car/company. But we do have to keep in mind that it is selling very well in South Africa and even was named the 2nd or the 3rd best Ute of 2012 (I think, I'm not exactly sure. Do forgive me). I think for the international market they need to transform it very effectively. While the dies for the metal parts are very expensive, the carbon fibre parts can be easily changed. Also the engine can be easily upgraded considering it is in competition against 3L V6 giants.

I still feel that for the Indian market they should not change the product too much (just update it with the times and make it VFM) but actually focus on, for once, selling it. Half the Tata dealers don't even know about the bloody car. I mean, now that is pathetic. I recently bought this car in my town and after seeing my model, 2 others have already placed orders. This car will sell if sold probably.

Just my two cents. Ciao!
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