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Old 29th December 2014, 19:46   #16
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Default Re: Bolero Engine Swap?

Does that mean I should quash my hope of one day switching over to DI Turbo and drive happily ever after?
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Old 30th December 2014, 11:28   #17
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Default Re: Bolero Engine Swap?

Quote:
Originally Posted by darxide View Post
Hi, I have a 2008 bolero LX 4x4 with the XD3 engine and BA10 gear box. It's a used car that has 1.11 lac plus kms on it.

I have heard from various jeep enthusiasts and owners that the Scorpio SZ2600 chain drive engine is a match for the BA10 gearbox and fitting a used one would not require too many mods to the Bolero. I'm looking out for the right information and tips on how to go about this engine swap if possible. Looking forward to your advice and help thanks - nikhil
Hi Nikhil,

What are the different engines and Gearboxes used in 4x2 & 4x4 Bolero variants?

List them out.

My suggestion is pick up the engine+gearbox+T-Case (wiring Harness 7 instrument cluster) where needed.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 30th December 2014, 12:06   #18
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Default Re: Bolero Engine Swap?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
List them out.
Yeh hui na baat Arka Ji.
Below are the few options I know of
1) Bolero GLX, sports and LX (2WD and 4WD) with XD3P engine and BA10 gearbox
2) Bolero DiSuper (2WD with front rigid suspension) – DiTurbo engine and NGT 520
3) Bolero SLE, SLX etc (2WD with front independent suspension) – DiTurbo engine and NGT 530
4) Bolero LX (4WD) – DiTurbo engine and NGT 530 or 530 R
5) Bolero Storm VLX (2WD with front independent suspension) – CRDe engine and NGT 530
Please add to this list as I may have missed 1 or 2 odd models.

Regards,
Shubhendra Singh
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Old 30th December 2014, 16:48   #19
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Default Re: Bolero Engine Swap?

Quote:
Originally Posted by darxide View Post
Hi, I have a 2008 bolero LX 4x4 with the XD3 engine and BA10 gear box. It's a used car that has 1.11 lac plus kms on it.

The engine is pretty much dead and sorely lacks power right from the day I bought it. Lacks pick up and power and wont go up steep slopes unless its really revved up. My mechanics have checked and have seen that the engine has mild to medium blow-by (back pressure) , most probably worn piston rings and cylinder liners etc.. The estimated cost of an overhaul I've been told will be in the region of 30-50 k. I would like to use this Bolero as my daily drive car and therefore I'm not too keen on running an overhauled engine since I've had less than satisfactory performance results from rebuilt engines in the past.

I have heard from various jeep enthusiasts and owners that the Scorpio SZ2600 chain drive engine is a match for the BA10 gearbox and fitting a used one would not require too many mods to the Bolero. I'm looking out for the right information and tips on how to go about this engine swap if possible. Looking forward to your advice and help thanks - nikhil
I am one of those who like 4x4's but I m nowhere near the amount of knowledge people have over here on T-BHP about them as well. But one thing I noticed and may be part of the reason the loss of power with an engine that may be on its last leg is because you have tyres that are really wide and that for a daily driver on the road is not needed at all. You could solve part of the problem switching back to OEM tyres or other tyres on a set of alloy wheels of your choice. Genuinely I feel part of the reason the engine is on its last leg is because it has been working really hard to spin them. Just my thought, may be it is a totally different thing all together in reality.
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Old 30th December 2014, 17:09   #20
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Default Re: Bolero Engine Swap?

I wanted to make sure whether I was right or wrong if that could help you in the quest to get back the gone mojo for the Bolero. Here's what I found.

The school physics books tell you that the coefficient of friction is a constant, but in reality this is an oversimplification. In the case of tyres, the coefficient of friction drops off as you increase the weight on the wheel. This is why you can tune a car's handling by adjusting the anti-roll bar, and also why you *can't* tune with anti-roll bars if the load on the tyres is too small (the vehicle is overtyred).

Because of this, the bigger the contact patch the more grip you can get. In a drag race, dropping the tyre pressure increases the contact patch area and increases grip. Even on road bikes you will see people dropping the tyre pressure to almost nothing for the absolute maximum grip down the strip.

BUT, when you look at lateral grip (side force) other factors start to matter. The tyre develops side force because of the slip angle between the tyre and the road. This slip angle means the tread is being pulled sideways by the road surface. At the front of the contact patch the deflection is relatively small. As you move back along the contact patch the deflection increases steadily. At some point, the sideways forces in the tyre exceed the friction between the tread and the road and the tread starts to slip relative to the road. When the tread is slipping like this it produces less grip on the road. Now imagine increasing the slip angle and imagine what effect this has on the side force. As the slip angle increases the sideways deflection builds up quicker so the front of the contact patch works harder. But more and more of the back of the contact patch is sliding and losing grip. At some point you reach a maximum point where more slip angle means less side force because you are losing more grip at the rear of the contact patch that you are gaining at the front. This is often referred to as 'breaking away' where you ask the tyre for more grip and end up getting less.

The longer the contact patch is, the more gradually this break away occurs. If you shorten the contact patch, the break away occurs more abruptly but you get more absolute grip at the peak. This is because there is less variation in sideways distortion between the front and back of the contact patch, more of the contact patch reaches maximum grip and starts to slide at the same point. Having a shorter contact patch also means you get less self-aligning torque so there is less feedback through the steering about how close the tyres are to breaking away.

When you fit wider tyres, what you're doing is making the contact patch wider and shorter for the same tyre pressure. This means you get a more abrupt breakaway but more grip right on the limit. The disadvantage is more expensive tyres, more tramlining and steering kickback, more wind and rolling resistance and noise, less grip in slippery conditions, a more abrupt breakaway to catch out the unwary driver and less warning through the steering about how close the tyres are to breaking away.

This probably explains why manufacturers tend to put wide tyres on high performance cars and narrower ones on ordinary family saloons.

Courtesy: GreenV8S@Pistonheads.com
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Old 30th December 2014, 17:46   #21
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Default Re: Bolero Engine Swap?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ron_9191 View Post
But one thing I noticed and may be part of the reason the loss of power with an engine that may be on its last leg is because you have tyres that are really wide and that for a daily driver on the road is not needed at all.

Dear Mr ron_9191,
Just to tell you, owner in discussion have had 3 or 4 boleros earlier and knows what he is talking about. Whether such big tyres are required or not is a separate topic altogether.

Regards,
Shubhendra Singh
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Old 30th December 2014, 18:08   #22
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Default Re: Bolero Engine Swap?

Well he was mentioning about loss of power and so and I was thinking may be that could be one of the reasons you know? Well if he knows what he's doing then for sure he is going to do the right thing.
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Old 31st December 2014, 16:47   #23
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Default Re: Bolero Engine Swap?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shubhendra View Post
Yeh hui na baat Arka Ji.
Below are the few options I know of
1) Bolero GLX, sports and LX (2WD and 4WD) with XD3P engine and BA10 gearbox
2) Bolero DiSuper (2WD with front rigid suspension) – DiTurbo engine and NGT 520
3) Bolero SLE, SLX etc (2WD with front independent suspension) – DiTurbo engine and NGT 530
4) Bolero LX (4WD) – DiTurbo engine and NGT 530 or 530 R
5) Bolero Storm VLX (2WD with front independent suspension) – CRDe engine and NGT 530
Please add to this list as I may have missed 1 or 2 odd models.

Regards,
Shubhendra Singh
Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post

List them out.

Arka
Dear Shubhendra,

Since it is up for discussion, can we explore the practical feasibility of a 4WD IFS setup(if at all possible)?

- Jai
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Old 2nd January 2015, 13:02   #24
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Default Re: Bolero Engine Swap?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunwarior View Post
Since it is up for discussion, can we explore the practical feasibility of a 4WD IFS setup(if at all possible)?
Hi Jai,

An engine replacement is easier than converting a 2WD/4WD to 4WD IFS.

Too much work on the chassis.

Brackets for the following to name a few
Upper/Lower Arm,
Shock Absorber,
Stabilizer Bar ,
Bump-Stops,
Torsion Bar ,
Front Differential
Steering System

Then the inherent problem of aligning them perfectly.

Regards,

Arka

Last edited by ex670c : 2nd January 2015 at 13:03.
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Old 2nd January 2015, 17:05   #25
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Default Re: Bolero Engine Swap?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Jai,

An engine replacement is easier than converting a 2WD/4WD to 4WD IFS.

Too much work on the chassis.

Brackets for the following to name a few
Upper/Lower Arm,
Shock Absorber,
Stabilizer Bar ,
Bump-Stops,
Torsion Bar ,
Front Differential
Steering System

Then the inherent problem of aligning them perfectly.

Regards,

Arka

Hi Arka,

My bad! Actually I meant converting 2WD IFS to 4WD IFS - like in Thar, Scorpio. I am a totally non-tech person hence maybe a stupid question. But can it be done? I mean 2WD IFS Bolero to 4WD IFS?

- Jai
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Old 3rd January 2015, 09:37   #26
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Default Re: Bolero Engine Swap?

That requires modifications and sourcing of parts that will end up costing you more than buying a used Thar!
What is perhaps more feasible is extending the Thar Crde chassis!

Last edited by jyobeb : 3rd January 2015 at 09:38.
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Old 3rd January 2015, 14:34   #27
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Default Re: Bolero Engine Swap?

AFAIK the Bolero 4x4 comes with live axle not IFS at front. So, shouldn't the MDI Turbo engine from the Thar DI 4x4 or the Bolero Pik-Up 4x4 be a clean fit? The previous gen Bolero 4x4s also came with this setup, didn't they?

That said, a properly rebuilt XD3P should be much better than a jugaad engine swap. If I were rebuilding this is to be a daily drive, I wouldn't even think of an engine swap. A total rebuild at a reputed mech or buying a used Bolero 4WD with the MDI engine would be the way I'd go.
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Old 3rd January 2015, 15:47   #28
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Default Re: Bolero Engine Swap?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jyobeb View Post
That requires modifications and sourcing of parts that will end up costing you more than buying a used Thar!
What is perhaps more feasible is extending the Thar Crde chassis!
Hi jyobeb,


Guess that means lesser mortals like me can never have IFS Bolero with 4WD. Either one can have IFS or 4WD. Just wonder how Tata is able to incorporate IFS 4WD in a package as humble as a Tatamobile?

Extending Thar CRDE chassis though tempting, is not feasible for non-tech person like me and there is financial implication as well.

I love my 4WD GLX - just that the body roll is too pronounced for comfort, and at times scary too! Is there anything a layman can do to tame the 4WD Bolero's *high speed* handling ?

*PS: By high speed I mean 90-100KMPH.

- Jai
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Old 5th January 2015, 10:46   #29
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Default Re: Bolero Engine Swap?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vivekgk View Post
AFAIK the Bolero 4x4 comes with live axle not IFS at front. So, shouldn't the MDI Turbo engine from the Thar DI 4x4 or the Bolero Pik-Up 4x4 be a clean fit?
Earlier bolero (XD3P engined) came with BA10 GB whereas Bolero Di came with NGT530......
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunwarior View Post

*PS: By high speed I mean 90-100KMPH.
For a moment i got amazed that there is someone who can achieve HIGH speed in XD3P Bolero

Shubhendra
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Old 21st March 2016, 15:49   #30
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Default Re: Bolero Engine Swap?

Finally I bit the bullet:
I bought bolero 4x4 two years back and wanted it to be used for long distances and exploration trips. I spent considerable time in getting the vehicle up and running and right from engine to painting to tyres to battery, electricals to seat to locks etc. almost everything was changed. I enjoyed it for a year and it never gave me any problem, used intermittently for few trips, trail drives, offroad etc. BUT, something was missing – POWER
Though my bolero never overheated in peak summer with AC on (after we worked on entire cooling system), gave decent mileage (10-12 kmpl), always used to start in one crank and smooth engine. I was able to reach decent speed on highway (80-90 kmph) but overtaking was a pain. You need to build momentum to overtake a slow moving vehicle and if someone comes from opposite side, you need to start that exercise again. Driving in hills was one of the worst experiences, where unladen pickups, 407 used to overtake me easily.
I loved every bit of this vehicle except engine. After discussion with various friends, offroaders, and experts I decided to go ahead with modifications.
I specifically want to appreciate help of Sreejesh bhai and Arka who answered my abundant questions day and night. Sreejesh even went to extent to buying an engine from Kerala, taking it to Bangalore so that I can pick it up from there.
Shetty Multicar Services (SMS): who did this conversion, amount of effort put by them, rework of various things done again and again, implementing my silly whims and fancies. Testing each modification and than reworking and what not
Thank you!

I bought this engine from Bombay through a contact and warranty of 15 days was given to me.

Bolero Engine Swap?-img20151013wa0002.jpg

Once we got the engine, we thoroughly cleaned it, painted it, opened entire front of Bolero and gearbox for easy fitment and plumbing and after few days we were able to fit engine, turbo, intercooler, power steering.

Engine with first round of coat, which we scrapped off when opened the engine later
Bolero Engine Swap?-img_20151025_122833.jpg

Bolero Engine Swap?-img_20151016_161028.jpg

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Bolero Engine Swap?-img_20151025_122701.jpg
After fitting the engine and rest of the body pieces (we opened entire front half of bolero), When we started the engine we found there was diesel leakage from fuel pump and minute back compression. As I wanted it to be perfect, we firs opened the head and then decided to open entire engine. Opened the entire engine, replaced necessary stuff, removed old paint and did repainting , got another pump as old pump was not in a good condition, got new injectors and process of fitting the set-up begins again.

Bolero Engine Swap?-img_20160102_144436.jpg

Bolero Engine Swap?-img_20160102_144505.jpg

Bolero Engine Swap?-img_20160102_195123.jpg

During this time front end of vehicle was again opened, we painted front chassis, inner side of panels, one more coat of anti rust on body floor etc. gear box was also opened partially to reduce oil leak.

After few weeks, we were able to install engine with original mountings and were able to use Scorpio’s AC compressor, power steering pump etc so that we can use original fan belt.
To compensate additional weight of this engine, we recambered front leaves and added one helper leaves on front pack. We also used longer shock absorbers all around. Gearbox was directly mated to Scorpio bell housing and we didn’t have to disturb gearbox mounting. For turbo few inches of additional space had to be carved out to accommodate turbo and silencer. Intercooler was fitted in front of AC compressor. Though layout of ancillary fittings in engine bay had to be changed in order to get it aligned with Scorpio engine. We had to reroute the silencer, as new exit was on right of engine. There was also modification involved in using existing air filter as its already connected to snorkel and any change in placement of air filter could have lead to new snorkel or new holes in body.
We had to also scout for front end silencer of a Scorpio to connect it to turbo. There was various other small tid bits and changes which we did.
After testing I realized 4.88 is not good for highway hence changed crown pinion ratio to 4.27, now I can easily cruise at 90-100 kmph
One additional change I did in interiors other than changing carpet is we removed last row bench seats and pushed middle seats few inches backwards. Now we have leg space at par with Safari mid seat and I can now easily put a car fridge or our dogs at home can ingress/egress easily.
Recent work which we did was AC overhaul. I don’t know much about AC but as per our AC mech, we had compressor of Scorpio and rest of the fittings of Bolero which was causing AC to not work optimally. Also Bolero came with R112 gas whereas Scorpio came with R134 gas. We opened entire dashboard etc. again and changed the condenser, new pipe lines etc and now AC is perfect.
Though we spent few months on this project and may have spent more than a new bolero 4x4 (cost of purchase + money spent on various modifications till now, or second gen Pajero but I was adamant on working on Bolero because:
• Pajero/scorpio are heavier and have soft suspension
• Any roadside mechanic can repair Bolero ( I had few instances in the past and I was able to get my jeep/bolero running in less than an hour)
• Cheaper body parts , suspension, especially side mirrors, windscreens, lights (I always break lights, side mirrors, indicators etc. during offroading)
• Love the looks of old Bolero
Initial impression:
After this conversion, I drove it for a day and final tweaking was done accordingly. I had a 3500Kms trip planned and I got my bolero an hour before our scheduled departure. My friend who owns the workshop where this conversion was done was confident on his workmanship but I was apprehensive. Soon after getting the bolero in the evening, we (just me and wife) started for a 3500 kms trip (Poona, Indore, Bhopal, Satna, Jabalpur, Nagpur, Poona). We drove through bad roads In Maharashtra to proper 4 lane highway between Dhule – Indor – Bhopal to village roads, ghats in MP and I was easily able to keep up with fast moving traffic, frequent overtaking etc. There was one offroading session at home and it performed way better, I pulled a fully loaded trolley to 40 kms, with 5 passengers on board and AC working on full swing and temperature never went past half mark.
Overall, I am happy with this conversion and after 4000kms, its trouble free. I know its too early to comment but the way things are progressing, I am optimistic to have niggle free experience in near future.
Will I suggest this conversion to anyone?
Yes, provided you are willing to spend countless days/weekends in garage, open to rework, testing and improvements or you have access to a garage that should be able to pull off this conversion with neatness and perfection.

Below are few pics after conversion:

Bolero Engine Swap?-img_20160116_130537.jpg

Bolero Engine Swap?-img_20160116_130613.jpg

Bolero Engine Swap?-img_20160116_130653.jpg

At Bada Talab, Bhopal

Bolero Engine Swap?-img_20160123_104331.jpg

At my home town doing duty

Bolero Engine Swap?-img_20160124_171727.jpg

Bolero Engine Swap?-img_20160124_171723.jpg
Regards,
Shubhendra Singh
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