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Old 12th January 2018, 20:45   #76
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Default Re: Offroad specifications of Bolero 4x4

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Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
You have to understand the camper is old. The only reason the camper is easy to repair is because it doesn't have much to go wrong in it. And because of that, you wont get more out of your car. Also, remember Mahindra parts quality is pathetic.
This input is very much appreciated. Since you have a lot of experience with these vehicles, what are some of the key failure points you have heard or seen over the years? Like for example, is there anything that cannot be covered by carrying a couple of boxes full of spares? Remember I'm talking about the standard bolero, not the one with IFS and Scorpio engine.


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Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
@dhaunush. Your are recommending a V-Cross to someone who is totally enjoying an MM550. I think Camper will be like getting into a Rolls Royce. At this point VCross maybe too much refinement and modernity to manage the transition.

Better to go with Camper. The Camper Gold/Delux doesn't come with 4WD. The standard version comes with 4WD but without PS or AC and brilliant 63 bhp/19 KGM Torque Engine. Wish Mahindra would give free ear muffs as to mask the roar of the engine.
Haha you nailed it, man! I totally enjoy the MM550 whenever I come to India and drive it. Its a good break from what I drive everyday, and an excellent stress-buster since I get paid to develop vehicles that you or anyone in the general public won't see until 2021, and in some cases, ever .

As far as standard version coming without PS or AC, you're misinformed. PS comes from the factory and AC can be fitted as a dealer option with completely OEM parts for about 35-40k.
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Old 12th January 2018, 22:42   #77
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Default Re: Bolero Camper 4x4 and functional upgrades for it

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No to the 2nd part of your first question, and yes to your 2nd question.... This is strictly for travel, no competition involved. Maintaining 100kph is good enough....reportedly commercial drivers are doing that today with up to 3 tons of load in the Camper!

Agreed on both V-Cross and Xenon , Anshuman. But the camper has a couple of things both of these vehicles lack, and that is 1. Simplicity and 2. A track record of reliability under the toughest conditions. Do you disagree?
It boils down to:

1.) Whether you live near a good Mahindra shop (Or two or three) that has good mechanics and access to parts.

And, NO!!! You are not going to carry 3 tons, 6000lbs, 2720kg in this Camper.
And, you might go 100kph in this thing...but I'm not riding with you. Beyond 70-80 things are going to get a little too exciting, handling-wise.

2.) Usage of the owner, what he needs, what he likes.

When you buy a vehicle you are also buying parts and service expertise...or lack thereof. If you don't take parts and service into account upon purchase, you will be up Sh@t Creek without a paddle.
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Old 12th January 2018, 23:11   #78
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Default Re: Offroad specifications of Bolero 4x4

DirtyDan, I'm not yet certain if you're subjecting me to some sort of frat hazing ritual but if you are, a little background about me will hopefully assure I'm well past the point of needing that

1. I never said I'll carry 3 tons. I said I know of commercial vehicles being used that way. My intent was to say they are still surviving that kind of abuse so should fare just fine under normal loads but off-road usage (A fun fact for you from the OEM engg. world: chassis & component loads in offroad usage are roughly 2-3 times what the same vehicle would experience in paved highway usage, which is the underlying reason for me bringing that up).

2. Not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying Mahindra have worse parts/service or availability of parts/service across the country than Isuzu or Tata?
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Old 13th January 2018, 07:46   #79
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Default Re: Offroad specifications of Bolero 4x4

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DirtyDan, I'm not yet certain if you're subjecting me to some sort of frat hazing ritual but if you are, a little background about me will hopefully assure I'm well past the point of needing that

1. I never said I'll carry 3 tons. I said I know of commercial vehicles being used that way.
3 tons? Don't know how you would even load that much into it. And that's a frame breaking load. You should know that. One ton would be a strain. I have seen a number of Campers with their beds bent into grotesque shapes, e.g. looking like tippers half tipped. So somebody had tried heavy loads, for sure.

All I am saying is that Mahindra vehicles are great if you live right near a good dealer and/or mechanic that can keep you on the road. This seems to happen down south but not up here where I am.
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Old 13th January 2018, 16:20   #80
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Default Re: Offroad specifications of Bolero 4x4

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Originally Posted by ananthkamath View Post
As far as standard version coming without PS or AC, you're misinformed. PS comes from the factory and AC can be fitted as a dealer option with completely OEM parts for about 35-40k.
Not for the 4x4 version. It comes standard for the 2WD version unless this change was made in the last 2 months or so.
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Old 13th January 2018, 16:33   #81
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Default Re: Bolero Camper 4x4 and functional upgrades for it

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Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
Not for the 4x4 version. It comes standard for the 2WD version unless this change was made in the last 2 months or so.
Don't know when it was made but put plainly the 4wd comes with PS and no AC from the factory. I saw a brand new one in Mangalore with my own 2 eyes, in addition to the price/spec list at the dealer..

Anyway, back to the info I need. A lot of info in this thread is just too old to be relevant in 2017. From searching other threads, I have a few answers to my questions below but not all. I've edited the original questions and would appreciate answers to these from people who have this knowledge first-hand.

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Originally Posted by ananthkamath View Post
Here are the things I would like your input on:

1) Wheels - I would like to retain OEM steel wheels from either Mahindra or Tata (or a 3rd option I dont know of yet). I think the stock size is 6J x 15. Which other sizes are available brand-new from either Tata or Mahindra dealers for this PCD and hub bore?
EDIT: To add to this, are the 16" army MM550 wheels available brand new anywhere? I understand these are heavier duty than the standard Mahindra steel wheels. I believe there are 2 styles that were made.
Old
Offroad specifications of Bolero 4x4-screenshot_20180113054544_01.jpg
New
Offroad specifications of Bolero 4x4-screenshot_20180113054717_01.jpg


2) Tires - A related question to (1) obviously, but I believe the Yoko Geolandar AT-G015 is the best all-terrain tire available in India. However, they don't appear to have good options for 31"+ diameter in narrow widths (i.e. < 245). Which other options should I consider keeping the constraint of OEM wheels in mind?
EDIT: I've all but zeroed in on 245/70-16 111H G015 over the 31x10.5-15 due to lack of OE wheel options for 8Jx15. Any other alternative suggestions are welcome...

3) Mild suspension lift - I would like 2" but not really more than that. What are the proven options for this in India?
EDIT: Let me narrow this down by asking, any known options of replacement leaf springs with increased ride height? Not interested in doing any recambering jugaad on a safety-critical part.

4) Rear Diff lock - Does the Eaton product fit the Camper? Is the Lamda product proven and reliable enough for a remote-area vehicle?

5) Front Diff lock - What options are available for a front diff lock? Anyone using one?
EDIT: Would appreciate answers to the above questions.
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Old 13th January 2018, 17:30   #82
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Default Re: Offroad specifications of Bolero 4x4

Since so much discussion is going on regarding the 4WD Camper, wanted to post a pic of this privately registered Camper that I saw in Sikkim. It looked absolutely stunning.

Offroad specifications of Bolero 4x4-dsc_5939.jpg
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Old 15th January 2018, 10:20   #83
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Default Re: Offroad specifications of Bolero 4x4

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Originally Posted by ananthkamath View Post
This input is very much appreciated. Since you have a lot of experience with these vehicles, what are some of the key failure points you have heard or seen over the years? Like for example, is there anything that cannot be covered by carrying a couple of boxes full of spares?
I think I've been in your shoes sometime back. Apart from competitions, where breakdown and repair is inevitable, for travel or expeditions, I would choose a vehicle which doesn't break down in the first place. Meaning, crank it and drive. Fill it, shut it, forget it. An old Mahindra is definitely not that.

As for the camper, yes, you can fix it with a proper tool kit in the back. But, again, lot of things to go wrong. All Mahindra parts, are substandard. Like the belts, hoses, etc..

That said, if you buy a newer vehicle than the Camper, what do you expect to go wrong in it in your kind of expedition?

Quote:
I totally enjoy the MM550 whenever I come to India and drive it.
Just like going camping in a tent, instead of a hotel room, If you "want" the old jeep experience, then nothing can beat the Camper in the market now.

Quote:
EDIT: To add to this, are the 16" army MM550 wheels available brand new anywhere? I understand these are heavier duty than the standard Mahindra steel wheels. I believe there are 2 styles that were made.
The two types have different PCD. You might get the new one with 160PCD in the market. Old one with 139.x PCD you wont. But, anyhow, both types are very durable and used ones wont matter.

Quote:
3) Mild suspension lift - I would like 2" but not really more than that. What are the proven options for this in India?
Why do you want the lift? More ground clearance? Better Clearance for tyres to articulate? Or just for the stance?

Quote:
4) Rear Diff lock - Does the Eaton product fit the Camper? Is the Lamda product proven and reliable enough for a remote-area vehicle?
Lamda is reliable. 40k for rear and another 40k for front.
Quote:
5) Front Diff lock - What options are available for a front diff lock? Anyone using one
Lambda again. (For solid axle, Dana 44 mahindra vehicles)
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Old 18th January 2018, 01:32   #84
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Default Re: Offroad specifications of Bolero 4x4

Sorry, got busy with work and couldn't respond in a detailed enough way.

First, thanks @dhanushs for answering some of my questions. I was a bit taken-aback by most of the responses I got to my very specific Bolero Camper related questions: Eg. choose a more modern vehicle, choose a more comfortable vehicle etc. But then, I realized I didn't do a good job of explaining the reasons for my choice at all. Hopefully after they read the below, I will get more people to help me with my questions!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
Apart from competitions, where breakdown and repair is inevitable, for travel or expeditions, I would choose a vehicle which doesn't break down in the first place. Meaning, crank it and drive. Fill it, shut it, forget it.
I agree 100%. However, what I'm hearing from you is that the Camper is not a good choice because

1. Its an old design.
2. Its got poor parts quality (you haven't elaborated on actual failures, except to say bad hoses and belts).
3. Its got both lots of things and not many things to go wrong in it
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
As for the camper, yes, you can fix it with a proper tool kit in the back. But, again, lot of things to go wrong. All Mahindra parts, are substandard. Like the belts, hoses, etc..
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
You have to understand the camper is old. The only reason the camper is easy to repair is because it doesn't have much to go wrong in it.
Based on what I have read, seen and heard, I am not convinced the Camper is worse off than either the Xenon or Isuzu V-Cross in terms of reliability or parts quality. What I DO know, is that it has a number of very objective and well-supported subjective advantages over these two, which I will elaborate as follows:

If I had unlimited funds to devote to this project, which vehicle would I choose? If I follow the example of 95% of the people who have completed serious around-the-world or really arduous expeditions, it is either the Toyota 70-series Land Cruiser Double Cab, or the Land Rover Defender High Capacity pickup. They are the Gold Standard, and according to a lot of people, there is nothing better. I tend to agree.

In broad terms and rough order of importance, lets see what the Bolero Camper has in common with the LC70 and LR Defender, and how it compares to Xenon & V-Cross:

1. 1-ton total payload capacity, rated by the manufacturer. By contrast, V-Cross is rated for 265kg cargo + 5 occupants = 650kg total payload. Sure, the Australian D-Max Crew Cab will carry 1 ton, but do you know what changes Isuzu made to take advantage of lower payload? I don't! Are you all positive it's just the suspension? I'm not! I don't like big uncertainties especially after paying nearly 2 times the price of the next best choice. While Xenon payload is also 1-ton, its kerb weight is 250kg more for no good reason - this can matter a lot in soft ground conditions.

2. True range of 750+ km under expedition conditions - It should be obvious why you need this. I have found the "combined cycle" figures to be the most accurate representation. While the Camper's fuel tank size pales in comparison (57L vs 75L of Defender and 130L of LC70), the vastly superior fuel economy makes up a lot for it. Also, with the Bolero fuel tank being made of metal instead of plastic, I trust it will be quite easy and cheap to increase its capacity. V-Cross and Xenon both have plastic tanks and also quite a bit worse fuel economy which severely limits their range.

3. High offroad credentials - Approach and departure angles, crawl ratio, turning radius, ground clearance, and the subjective reputation (which matters a lot to me) compare favorably. The small size of the Bolero can mean the difference between passing straight through, or finding a detour sometimes, I'm sure you know that already. I am not under any illusion that a Bolero can compete with a LC or Defender, having actually driven both of these off-road, but IMO it is not too far behind in the type of terrain I expect to see.

4. "Old" but proven platform - All of these vehicles were designed in the late-70s to early 80s, and their basic design is much much older than that. They have all seen a lot of engineering development specific to their intended usage scenarios, i.e. load carrying over the worst terrain. They seem archaic compared to the competition, yet they are highly desired today in their respective markets, especially by commercial and fleet owners who value ruggedness, maximum up-time, and low cost of ownership over everything else. A good example of this is how much the commercial Bolero pickup outsells the Tata 207, there are good reasons for this.

5. Less is More philosophy - If I don't have something to start with, I will prepare accordingly for the lack of it. Its funny you mentioned A/c before, since neither LC70 nor LR Defender come with it! There are other ways to get the advantage of A/c without the added load on the engine & electrical system (big deal), and added complexity (not such a big deal). Similarly, you could group most added features in the Xenon or V-Cross, like slightly better ride comfort (independent front suspension), convenience (A/c, keyless entry, power seats/windows/ORVM, shift-on-the-fly 4WD), as frills that can go wrong, and you simply don't need in the first place. I don't group safety features like ABS and airbags into this, if the Camper offered those as options, I would be the first person to take it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
That said, if you buy a newer vehicle than the Camper, what do you expect to go wrong in it in your kind of expedition?
Let me put it this way. Imagine a scenario in a remote area, several hundred miles from civilization, in a foreign country. If a drive belt or hose fails, I can grab a spare and maybe some coolant/water from the back and fix it in an hour or so. If the engine ECU on the Bolero goes into limp-mode, I can remove the glovebox and switch it out in about 2 minutes, or at least I can try replacing the sensors 1-by-1. If a shift-on-the-fly transfer case on the Xenon/Isuzu has a fault and engine goes into limp-home mode, what do I do? If a keyless entry system faults out and doesn't let me into the vehicle or immobilizes the engine, what do I do? If bad fuel plugs up the injectors and disables the engine (a much higher chance of this happening on the Xenon or Isuzu), what do I do? If an auto-locking front hub on the Isuzu/Xenon fails to engage or disengage, what then?

Note that none of the above are unlikely scenarios and these exact issues have been reported on this forum and others. To my knowledge none of these show-stoppers happen on the Bolero because it doesn't have these "features" (sure, other Mahindra models with these features present have had these issues)!

Anyway, the point of this is to explain the rationale behind my choice, not to sound argumentative in any way. Ultimately it also comes down to cost. We are planning to take multiple vehicles (2-3) and the cost of Carnets etc will become prohibitive since these are proportional to the original on-road price.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
Why do you want the lift? More ground clearance? Better Clearance for tyres to articulate? Or just for the stance?
It is for two reasons. One is ramp breakover angle, which is low on the Camper compared to Thar or other off-roaders due to its 119" wheelbase. The second is ground clearance @ full load should not be less than 200mm in any case. I am not aware of whether the quoted 185mm is at GVW or kerb.
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