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Old 10th February 2010, 22:43   #361
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Why dont you start a THREAD for maybe a SWB SCORPIO? Would it not be great to have a machine with such amazing power to weight / torque to weight, winches and LSD Front and Rear?
Vikram wouldn't that be the Thar??

Yesterday I sat in a Scorpio and was impressed by the level of refinement M&M has achived in drivetrain compared to say the old Jeeps and just this thought crossed my mind that if you take out the top heavy body of the Scorpio you actually have the Thar. Without that extra weight it should feel more stable and agile
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Old 11th February 2010, 08:56   #362
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Vikram wouldn't that be the Thar??

Yesterday I sat in a Scorpio and was impressed by the level of refinement M&M has achived in drivetrain compared to say the old Jeeps and just this thought crossed my mind that if you take out the top heavy body of the Scorpio you actually have the Thar. Without that extra weight it should feel more stable and agile
Deepak - The THAR is on a 540/550 Chassis - Just imagine if the THAR is good, wont the same engine in a smaller CJ3* Chassis make the powertrain awesome.
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Old 11th February 2010, 09:43   #363
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@VN / Spike: I think its good to fade out the Major: how long can a company sell outdated products?

If India did not enforce restrictions via emissions and PUC, we would NOT have had much modern cars and maybe still fighting with the Ambys, Fiats, and Maruti 800s.
Headers my friend,
What i am interested is in modern classic what V W beetle is today and what Mini is today. Iam defintaely not interested in old b275 engine and 3 speed gearbox or even a XDp engine.


This CJ high bonnet front is a classic face. Why not continue that with modern power plant? You must discontinue it only if people reject it. I don't think any body complained over the looks of Major, heck it does better volumes than Invader IMO.

I would be happy to have Amby's design continue for another 100 years with a crisper chassis and modern engines (or even electric motors). When a design is superior and can give run for their money even after 50 years why discontinue them? Its a legacy anyway!

I understand who ever bought Major till now didn't buy it because it had CJ high bonnet front and a retro look to it...they bought it because it was simple and effective design. Why discontinue which sells and holds it case?

ps. I am not a flat fender and high bonnet fan, i love the look of MM540 but still cant help but feeling bad for CL500 -The last of the real 4x4 Period.

Last edited by vinod_nookala : 11th February 2010 at 09:46. Reason: The last of the real 4x4
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Old 11th February 2010, 10:45   #364
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Default Thar Good or Not?

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Deepak - The THAR is on a 540/550 Chassis - Just imagine if the THAR is good, wont the same engine in a smaller CJ3* Chassis make the powertrain awesome.
Headers, why are you imagining dude? it is good, no second thoughts on that. I think RedMM340 mentioned somewhere that he would like to move his axle forward by a few inches so that he gets sufficient clearance with the oil sump.

OT- i have seen CLs and Invaders fitted with NEF engines, what RedMM340 has mentioned makes sense.

Spike
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Old 11th February 2010, 15:34   #365
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Headers, why are you imagining dude? it is good, no second thoughts on that. I think RedMM340 mentioned somewhere that he would like to move his axle forward by a few inches so that he gets sufficient clearance with the oil sump.

OT- i have seen CLs and Invaders fitted with NEF engines, what RedMM340 has mentioned makes sense.

Spike
Hi Spike,

The CRDe XD3P is not all that big in the Sump, as we have seen on the THAR, isn't it easier to push it back a few inches, closer to the rear axle?

In a SWB (81-84") it will be better to retain the KMT90.

Regards,

Arka

Last edited by ex670c : 11th February 2010 at 15:48.
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Old 11th February 2010, 16:49   #366
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Hi Spike,

The CRDe XD3P is not all that big in the Sump, as we have seen on the THAR, isn't it easier to push it back a few inches, closer to the rear axle?

In a SWB (81-84") it will be better to retain the KMT90.

Regards,

Arka
Hi Arka,

Oil sump for MDI TC and CRDe is different, also pushing the engine back will have interferences with the firewall, and consequently dimensions of nearby components will change, for one vehicle this is doable but for a manufacturing setup i am afraid,

Spike
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Old 11th February 2010, 16:57   #367
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Dear Arka - guruji, tussi great hoji - but I mention once again that THAR DOES NOT HAVE XD3 ENGINE OR ANY VERSION OF XD3 ENGINE. IT HAS NEF ENGINE.

Beest regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 11th February 2010, 17:19   #368
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Oil sump for MDI TC and CRDe is different, also pushing the engine back will have interferences with the firewall, and consequently dimensions of nearby components will change, for one vehicle this is doable but for a manufacturing setup i am afraid,
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Dear Arka - guruji, tussi great hoji - but I mention once again that THAR DOES NOT HAVE XD3 ENGINE OR ANY VERSION OF XD3 ENGINE. IT HAS NEF ENGINE.
@ SPIKE,

1) so its easier to convert the vehicle to IFS, for Production, than meddle around with the firewall, IIRC the Firewall is Stamped/Pressed then that piece is welded to the other body panels.

Make a new Firewall for production.

People have managed to Fit a M-Hawk & NGT530 4WD in a Toyota FJ40 and you guys can't do it on a MM540 .

(Check last years Mumbai OTR Thread) I doubt he used the Scorpio Firewall.

Also Pre 1980-83c M&M had 2 separate firewalls for the B275 & F4-134, only in 1983 they went for the Standardized/ Homologated Diesel Firewall for all their CJ/CL Series.

Also I heard a CJ3B with 2.8L 4cyl 166bhp Petrol Mitsubishi Engine & Mitsubishi Gear Box & 4WD was supplied to the Iranian Army, how did you manage that on approx 3K Vehicles.

If that vehicle was manufactured, how did you allow the CJ3B Chassis to take 2 times the BHP it was designed for?

Wasn't that engine + G-Box carried over to a few MM540s for a former PM of INDIA, 166BHP on a C-Section Boxed in Chassis, with 51" Track Axles with King-Pins?

2) Or how about a flushed in Crankcase which does not foul with the Front Prop-Shaft.

@ Behram Dhabar, Arrey Same Difference, Sirjee (Tussi World Famous Ho Ji)

Regards,

Arka
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Old 11th February 2010, 17:20   #369
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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
The CRDe XD3P is not all that big in the Sump....
Quote:
Dear Arka - guruji, tussi great hoji - but I mention once again that THAR DOES NOT HAVE XD3 ENGINE OR ANY VERSION OF XD3 ENGINE. IT HAS NEF ENGINE.

Beest regards,

Behram Dhabhar
and the saga continues ...
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Old 11th February 2010, 18:41   #370
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@ SPIKE,

1) so its easier to convert the vehicle to IFS, for Production, than meddle around with the firewall, IIRC the Firewall is Stamped/Pressed then that piece is welded to the other body panels.

Make a new Firewall for production.

People have managed to Fit a M-Hawk & NGT530 4WD in a Toyota FJ40 and you guys can't do it on a MM540 .

(Check last years Mumbai OTR Thread) I doubt he used the Scorpio Firewall.

Also Pre 1980-83c M&M had 2 separate firewalls for the B275 & F4-134, only in 1983 they went for the Standardized/ Homologated Diesel Firewall for all their CJ/CL Series.

Also I heard a CJ3B with 2.8L 4cyl 166bhp Petrol Mitsubishi Engine & Mitsubishi Gear Box & 4WD was supplied to the Iranian Army, how did you manage that on approx 3K Vehicles.

If that vehicle was manufactured, how did you allow the CJ3B Chassis to take 2 times the BHP it was designed for?

Wasn't that engine + G-Box carried over to a few MM540s for a former PM of INDIA, 166BHP on a C-Section Boxed in Chassis, with 51" Track Axles with King-Pins?

2) Or how about a flushed in Crankcase which does not foul with the Front Prop-Shaft.

@ Behram Dhabar, Arrey Same Difference, Sirjee (Tussi World Famous Ho Ji)

Regards,

Arka
Dear Arka,

Let my try to clear a few things:-

The dash/firewall is a press part which is carved out from a precision die, cost of making a die is minimum 2 crore (considering the component size), also if you are trying to make it common across the whole platform this has several repercursions, regular production will stop leading to downtimes (cost impact= Cost of 1 vehicle X No. of vehicles lost per day X No. of days) the minimum time for this will be around 15 days, so imagine the losses incurred, also any manufacturer at the end of the day wants to do business, if he doesn't see volumes why will he do huge investments, just for the heck of it? People may fit MD2350 to MHawk in the vehicle of their choice (we do this day in and day out at a place called "Protoshop"), for one vehicle that is possible by trial and error but what about mass production? What would happen if an assembly operator fits a firewall (which looks similar) to a different vehicle, imagine the chaos that will result in an assembly line (parts not fitting, fouling and so on). Also for your kind information body shops of all automobile companies keep the variants to the minimum the reason being it is very difficult to do "Poka Yoke" in body shops, once something is welded it is gone, the assembly line cannot be stopped as there is a TACT time for each activity done by an operator. Regarding the Iranian army vehicle with Mitsubishi engine and gear box IIRC only prototypes were made, 3000 vehicles were never sold with that configuration and whether that engine and GB was given to an Indian PM or not, i have sent him a PM let me see if i can get a reply. For your reference i am attaching the pic of a Prototype made here, can you tell me (I bet you will) which vehicle is it?
I am not trying to justify or ridicule anyone, just visualize yourself being on the other end of the forest you will appreciate what we go through. For you changing a hex head bolt to an allen bolt depends on whether the spanner/allen key is available or not, for us it is a myriad of things. Please try and understand, i hope you will.

Spike Arrestor
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Mahindra Major 4x4 Edit:Now Discontinued-170420093676.jpg  

Mahindra Major 4x4 Edit:Now Discontinued-170420093682.jpg  


Last edited by SPIKE ARRESTOR : 11th February 2010 at 18:44.
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Old 12th February 2010, 02:31   #371
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For your reference i am attaching the pic of a Prototype made here, can you tell me (I bet you will) which vehicle is it?
I am not trying to justify or ridicule anyone, just visualize yourself being on the other end of the forest you will appreciate what we go through.
Spike Arrestor

Is that a Esteem fitted with Jeep Grand Cherokees font? & some "Customized" body panels? What in the heck is that to be called as a prototype?

@ for the bold part: Is it some training project of customizing dept there?
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Old 12th February 2010, 08:28   #372
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@offroad maniac you are wrong, a prototype is something made to simulate a concept, can be functional/non functional, few body panels are common with esteem but the DAC is from M&M's stable, also this is not a training project

Spike
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Old 12th February 2010, 09:14   #373
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Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
@offroad maniac you are wrong, a prototype is something made to simulate a concept, can be functional/non functional, few body panels are common with esteem but the DAC is from M&M's stable, also this is not a training project

Spike
Agreed about the definition of prototype. Will you be kind enough to share some information about the prototype in question? Why and when did M&M build such a prototype?
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Old 12th February 2010, 10:11   #374
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Hi Amartya, there are a few things which i cannot disclose in an open forum like this. Please understand.

Spike
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Old 12th February 2010, 10:33   #375
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Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Let my try to clear a few things:-

The dash/firewall is a press part which is carved out from a precision die, cost of making a die is minimum 2 crore (considering the component size), also if you are trying to make it common across the whole platform this has several repercursions, regular production will stop leading to downtimes (cost impact= Cost of 1 vehicle X No. of vehicles lost per day X No. of days) the minimum time for this will be around 15 days, so imagine the losses incurred, also any manufacturer at the end of the day wants to do business, if he doesn't see volumes why will he do huge investments, just for the heck of it? People may fit MD2350 to MHawk in the vehicle of their choice (we do this day in and day out at a place called "Protoshop"), for one vehicle that is possible by trial and error but what about mass production? What would happen if an assembly operator fits a firewall (which looks similar) to a different vehicle, imagine the chaos that will result in an assembly line (parts not fitting, fouling and so on). Also for your kind information body shops of all automobile companies keep the variants to the minimum the reason being it is very difficult to do "Poka Yoke" in body shops, once something is welded it is gone, the assembly line cannot be stopped as there is a TACT time for each activity done by an operator. Regarding the Iranian army vehicle with Mitsubishi engine and gear box IIRC only prototypes were made, 3000 vehicles were never sold with that configuration and whether that engine and GB was given to an Indian PM or not, i have sent him a PM let me see if i can get a reply. For your reference i am attaching the pic of a Prototype made here, can you tell me (I bet you will) which vehicle is it?
I am not trying to justify or ridicule anyone, just visualize yourself being on the other end of the forest you will appreciate what we go through. For you changing a hex head bolt to an allen bolt depends on whether the spanner/allen key is available or not, for us it is a myriad of things. Please try and understand, i hope you will.
Hi Spike,

I surely do understand M&M's predicament, Bappi Lahiri & Anu Malick also said the same things.

We care; therefore we Bare (M&M's activities)

Regards,

Arka
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