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Old 7th April 2008, 19:09   #91
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This post deserves a genuine
Thanks Headers,
I needed that support.
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Old 7th April 2008, 19:43   #92
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Default I second that motion!

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This post deserves a genuine
Susan3004, thanks as always for your informative, detailed post. Always good to get away from flaming opinion and have the cold facts layed out by someone expert in an area dispassionately without a special...er,...AXE to grind.
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Old 7th April 2008, 22:39   #93
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Thumbs up I second that !!!

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Susan3004, thanks as always for your informative, detailed post...
susan3004, I fully agree with DirtyDan.....you have posted your views crisply bravo !!!

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...dispassionately without a special...er,...AXE to grind.
very (pun)ny
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Old 8th April 2008, 02:52   #94
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1. You have answered the question yourself of having/using a diff lock or not by being an expert like Kubelwagen(who?)

2. By your kind consideration of Mahindra being a cheater and not a ......
1. We had 2 nos. Mercedes 312 assembled by TATA, and it just had 4x4. it would have helped if we had diff lock, hence my perception, if its there its a releif!
VW Kubelwagen, germen counterpart of Jeep. Civilian name: VW Thing!

2. Mahindra is sold because of limited options. Its sold to other countries as a cheap alternative. Check this case, Bolero is not cheap, but when will they learn small details as to work on the ugly external door hinges.
Check the suspension layout on 2WD and again do the same in 4x4 version, Pawan Goenka says he has a very strong R&D and are spending millions on it. Till now their R&D couldn't figure out how to install 4x4 with coils. So leaf chalega!! kaun puchta hai. hence the quality of ride!

3. cost of ownership of XDP, well XDP is IDI, wat if heater fails, Army needs quick operating vehicle in emergency no. I will send you sometime later how it got the order of XDP on top of Tempo Gurkha 4x4. I have similar case history of jonga, nissan 1ton, Man, and problems at VFJ.

4. wat is sanguine, Well I honestly salute you by all means, it because of dude like you, I can sit in AC offices and rant about things. Hail indian army dudes!

5. Pink Panther, is a purpose built defender 90 & 110 for british SAS and army. also used by dutch, italy etc. Its in operation in Iraq, and proved very cost effective than Humvee. and equally capable.

6. Axe. Kab tak, they will be 'so called inspire' from others design and adapt it to 'cliche' Indian conditions. Aren't you proud of Ratan Tata and his Nano. I am...!
As far as loosing is concern, they will sell say 50k vehicle to army at premium for ingeniuos product and its R&D (or namesake r&d) behind it, at the expense of you and me, Tax payers money.

anyway it was nice knowing you!!

keep in touch!! peace & (please don't take it as 'post' war, just explanations)

Thanks for keeping us safe!

regards

KDT
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Old 8th April 2008, 03:14   #95
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I agree..The driver from the hills cant even look at a track or highway driving..ssh sorry for comparing but it just got me tickled.
Dude! your perception is not true.
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Old 8th April 2008, 10:34   #96
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1. We had 2 nos. Mercedes 312 assembled by TATA, and it just had 4x4. it would have helped if we had diff lock, hence my perception, if its there its a releif!
VW Kubelwagen, germen counterpart of Jeep. Civilian name: VW Thing!

2. Mahindra is sold because of limited options. Its sold to other countries as a cheap alternative. Check this case, Bolero is not cheap, but when will they learn small details as to work on the ugly external door hinges.
Check the suspension layout on 2WD and again do the same in 4x4 version, Pawan Goenka says he has a very strong R&D and are spending millions on it. Till now their R&D couldn't figure out how to install 4x4 with coils. So leaf chalega!! kaun puchta hai. hence the quality of ride!

3. cost of ownership of XDP, well XDP is IDI, wat if heater fails, Army needs quick operating vehicle in emergency no. I will send you sometime later how it got the order of XDP on top of Tempo Gurkha 4x4. I have similar case history of jonga, nissan 1ton, Man, and problems at VFJ.

4. wat is sanguine, Well I honestly salute you by all means, it because of dude like you, I can sit in AC offices and rant about things. Hail indian army dudes!

5. Pink Panther, is a purpose built defender 90 & 110 for british SAS and army. also used by dutch, italy etc. Its in operation in Iraq, and proved very cost effective than Humvee. and equally capable.

6. Axe. Kab tak, they will be 'so called inspire' from others design and adapt it to 'cliche' Indian conditions. Aren't you proud of Ratan Tata and his Nano. I am...!
As far as loosing is concern, they will sell say 50k vehicle to army at premium for ingeniuos product and its R&D (or namesake r&d) behind it, at the expense of you and me, Tax payers money.

anyway it was nice knowing you!!

keep in touch!! peace & (please don't take it as 'post' war, just explanations)

Thanks for keeping us safe!

regards

KDT

sirAlec,

Specifically on point no.2 and 3 Mahindras opting for a rigid axle front set up on 4wd and providing IDI engines to ARMY has got only one thing to do with - PRICE!! This has nothing to do with their R&D capability.
Mahindra was considering giving Army with powerful engines, like the one in AXe but the question is whos going to pay for it? ARMY is extremely price sensitive. If TATA could do it, then why didnt they strom the ARMY with SUMO 4x4's? Why didnt Gurkha really pick up with ARMY?
The reason is apart from 'Kick backs' the vehicle itself has to be good and manufacturer must be able to supply parts for it. Mahindra & Maruti are good at it and others arent. Infact even Defender was considered but didnt click with the army. Not offering Diff locks again has to do with costs and maintenance related issues. As far as present IDI engine is concerned apart from the genuine problem of starting when battery goes dead, the engine has got fantastic range and revs it up to 4500 rpm and is pretty sufficient for 0.5 ton class vehicle. Powerful and better engines are welcome but will come at a cost. Is army ready to pay for it?

Now regarding offering a 4wd with a rigid axle is concerned, even i would hate it after paying about 7.5 lakhs on road for a Bolero SLX. But unfortuately India is primarily a 2wd market. 4wd volumes dont justfy them to really put a independent setup like in scorpio with 4wd. The present system costs 60k premium and independent set up costs 1,00,000 premium. Mahindra offers Bolero camper 4wd with independent setup in Africa. Bringing it here isnt a big thing. But the question is who is really going to pay 1,00,000 for 4wd IFS (independent front suspension) and that too for a Bolero when you can get a 2wd scorpio fully loaded at that price? This has just to do with Indian market mentality rather than manufacturer capability alone.
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Old 8th April 2008, 10:50   #97
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Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post
But the question is who is really going to pay 1,00,000 for 4wd IFS (independent front suspension) and that too for a Bolero when you can get a 2wd scorpio fully loaded at that price? This has just to do with Indian market mentality rather than manufacturer capability alone.
Good point. Apart from a handful of enthusiasts I doubt most people will pay up for this so manufacturers dont' really care about keeping the 4x4 enthusiasts happy since the volumes won't justify the effort/expense.

I suppose the only reason we have the Gurkha 4x4 is purely because they have decent export orders.
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Old 8th April 2008, 14:41   #98
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Also, Vinod, dont you think the rigid axle setup is better than IFS? Can you list advantages and disadvantages of the two? Please ?
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Old 8th April 2008, 16:40   #99
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sirAlec,

Specifically on point no.2 and 3 Mahindras opting for a rigid axle front set up on 4wd and providing IDI engines to ARMY has got only one thing to do .
Army doesn't have to compromise on price, it doesn't, hence it has scania, tatra, cafir, etc.
its the people behind those deals. and i feel mahindra exploited it a lot.

chk the case of getaway (and its price)and . people say its a reworked chasis, but if u lift the cab you can fit a maxpickup rite on it.

well its a case of you like this I like that. nothing personal.
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Old 8th April 2008, 16:44   #100
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Also, Vinod, dont you think the rigid axle setup is better than IFS? Can you list advantages and disadvantages of the two? Please ?
Rigid axle doesn't mean you can't have independent suspension.


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Old 8th April 2008, 16:50   #101
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Also, Vinod, dont you think the rigid axle setup is better than IFS? Can you list advantages and disadvantages of the two? Please ?
Headers,
To the best of my knowledge rigid axle set up is better in these conditions-

1. High load applications, thats why you dont find many trucks using IFS. Simplicty and lower cost mainly drives the rigid axle market. For example In india Volvo dumped its rear air suspension on trucks to inverted boggie leaf set up for cost saving and simplicity

2. Better tyre life is given with rigid axle setup. IFS suspension set up just cannot match a rigid set up on this. Wheel alignment intervals can be extended in this set up. For example trax pick up is offered with both IFS and rigid axle option depending upon the terrain and load conditions

3. Rugged layout is achieved by rigid axle setup with least cost when used with leaf springs

4. Axle articulation is better with rigid axle setup off road. Coil over rigid axle set up like defender gives the best articulation.

5. IFS will give variable GC where as rigid axle has constant GC , again good for off road situations


IFS is good when,

1. Good handling is required both on & off road at high speeds. Hummer and all other new generation SUV's use this set up.

2. Ride comfort is of supreme importance. rigid axles can never match comfort levels and handling powress of IFS.

3. Maintenance of some new IFS system is as low as rigid axle setups. But this set up will never match rigid axle setp up on cost front.


Hence IFS is for comfort speed and handling and rigid axle set up is for ruggedness, ground clearence, and low cost of operation.

May be you can eloberate if i have missed out on something....:-)
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Old 8th April 2008, 16:52   #102
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Rigid axle doesn't mean you can't have independent suspension.
Thank you SirAlec, can you pl tell me the different suspension setups possible on a 4wD machine?
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Old 8th April 2008, 16:54   #103
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Rigid axle doesn't mean you can't have independent suspension.


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Rigid axle and independent suspension concepts are different. The defender in picture has rigid set up, and picture was suggesting axle wrticuation. IFS means both the wheels are suspended independent of each other with no common link. The movement of one, doesnt effect the other like in Bolero 2wd.
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Old 8th April 2008, 17:06   #104
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Thank you SirAlec, can you pl tell me the different suspension setups possible on a 4wD machine?
i can't. I am not an engineer.

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Rigid axle and independent suspension concepts are different. The defender in picture has rigid set up, and picture was suggesting axle wrticuation. IFS means both the wheels are suspended independent of each other with no common link. The movement of one, doesnt effect the other like in Bolero 2wd.
we are messing things up. are talking about trans-axle on multi link suspension?

i think you meant axle articluation. its just a term to measure suspension travel for o offroad vehicle.

Last edited by SirAlec : 8th April 2008 at 17:13.
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Old 8th April 2008, 17:08   #105
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Rigid axle doesn't mean you can't have independent suspension...
Rigid axle and independent suspension are mutually exclusive : let us not confuse coil-spring suspensions with independent suspensions
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