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Old 2nd July 2008, 09:19   #256
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Originally Posted by madbullram View Post
You can also try doing parallel charge from the alternator...
Can you explain parellel charging..?
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Old 2nd July 2008, 09:42   #257
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This works when you have separate connection to the headlight. We need check that in the jeep. I have done the same setup in my Bullet. This avoided any upgrades to the alternator or adding winding to it.

Run that connection that leads to the headlight also through battery. Use a cut off switch, which will pass the charge to Headlight when needed (during night driving). So effectively during day time driving the battery gets more charge.

Plus once the battery charged and Samurai is only using regular headlights, I dont see a scenrio which will result in complete drain (I think Rehaan has explained it beautifully). He would use the fogs on and off. So I guess this should be fine.

Another one could be to mate a Bolero Alternator with this jeep, which is long term solution if we look for adding A/C to it. GTO can add some details on this as I know his Jeep has A/C in it.

Headers: this is based on my experience. Still learning about Jeep, you know something...I still cherish the drive we had on your jeep when you were planning to sell...thats my first love on a jeep
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Old 2nd July 2008, 10:12   #258
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The air-con was fitted at the time of my Jeep's rebuild in 2003. Mahindra didn't upgrade the alternator and I really had no issues with battery juice. Ran for about 30,000 kms without any problems. I think the Classic came with an upgraded electrical system compared to the CJ340 anyways.

My current setup is running a Bolero alternator with the 2.5 engine. The Jeep is currently undergoing testing and has completed about 200 kms without major issues.
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Old 2nd July 2008, 11:04   #259
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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Ok, is the CJ340 alternator good enough for extra lights, I hope so.

Meanwhile, the battery appears to be fixed pretty well. I hadn't touched the Jeep in 3 days since I couldn't drive it out without the soft-top, it is raining all the time. Just now I cranked it, and in 5-6 seconds it started, in the very first crank. Before I had to try it 3-4 times if I am starting first time in the day. Also, the last 3 days were extremely wet and moisture in the air was probably 80-100% all the time.

Now, how does one start the Jeep without a battery? I recall an old technique from the 80s where we pushed the car in neutral and then slip in the gear. Does that work here?
sorry for late reply ....
yes it works, but since this engine needs heating before starting[ and there not battery], you will need a nice slope or good man power to push it, need at least 100meter to 200 meter push depending on the ambient temperature and the condition of the engine....have been through all this
As for the battery 80amp should do good , I have never used Amron batteries, as my battery guy always tells me the these batteries do not work well in goan climate and also, till 05 I used to swear by Exide but than the quality started to go down hill [my experience]. so started hunting for new brand and have been using Bosch.
Get the carbon brushes of the alternator checked as this is the part that M&M still can not get the vendors to make it of right quality, and since it a old vehicle this part will have been changed several times and there are a lot of low quality parts in the market which are used by electricians and you and I can not tell the difference ..till we have problems.
The new bolero alternator will fit on this engine.Also to get good life out of a battery [on this vehicle] get a after market heater timer [ like the once on new vehicles], it has the temperature dependent timer for glow plugs, it should be around rs 600 to 800 /- , it a start fit, any auto electrician will be able to do it. this unit help in avoiding over consumption of power by the heater.
If you want to run higher wattage lights, get a good quality relay ["cutout" thats what it's called in the market] from the battery to the light with thick wiring.this will save round alternator from burning and also the light switch from melting [ again i know from experience].
hope this was helpful.

Last edited by dinar : 2nd July 2008 at 11:20.
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Old 2nd July 2008, 16:12   #260
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Headers: this is based on my experience. Still learning about Jeep, you know something...I still cherish the drive we had on your jeep when you were planning to sell...thats my first love on a jeep
OK..but arent you complicating the setup with a parallel charge cutout etc..simpler option is to go for a bigger alternator and bigger battery!

Sad, you didnt buy that jeep. It was completely rebuilt thanks to ex670c.

Quote:
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My current setup is running a Bolero alternator with the 2.5 engine. The Jeep is currently undergoing testing and has completed about 200 kms without major issues.

Wow, Congrats GTO, finally your jeep is seeing daylight! Any plans to come this side of town?
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Old 2nd July 2008, 17:15   #261
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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Thanks Rehaan, your calculations were very helpful. I understand all the stuff, it is just that I haven't used say P=VI since I left college. Now I'll start applying that.
Rehaan's calculations have a flaw. when Alternator says XXX Amperes, its peak amperes. In normal driving etc., you will get lesser, so the actual is 60-70% of the peak value.
So if you draw is 35A under peak load, I would suggest you go for an alternator that is 60A rated.
Most modern cars have 85-90A alternators even though though peak draw is only 50A or so.

However the best way of finding whether your alternator is adequate is to start the engine, and let idle settle. then attach a voltmeter with everything switched off.

After that switch on devices one by one, and see the voltage. It should not drop below 13V. Sometimes you may see 12.95V etc., but 0.05V is fine.
On slight revving you will see voltage climb up to 13.5 upto 14.4V

If your current alternator is unable to sustain close to 13V at idle with headlamps on, then on some rainy day you will be stranded, and will have to push start the car, like I had to do umpteen number of times before the alternator change.
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Old 2nd July 2008, 18:17   #262
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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Just push? what about slipping into gear later?


Empty roads with an incline? I don't think I need to get up early, I can get it anytime of the day, any day of the year.
I meant "push it in neutral (ignition ON), jump in after it attains some momentum, slip to the second cog, and release the clutch!". This was common in Amby/Fiat days

Good to hear that you get empty roads anytime you want!
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Old 2nd July 2008, 18:30   #263
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Pushing the car with gear engaged and clutch depressed requires more strength than pushing it while in neutral. Maybe because the clutch doesn't disengage completely???. Hence, it is advisable to push it in neutral until it attains some speed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post
For without battery starts - Slot in second, ask someone to give a good push and let go the clutch once you have attained a fair momentum and then pump the accelerator. Once it starts depress clutch and let the engine idle for sometime.

Last edited by aah78 : 3rd July 2008 at 02:11. Reason: Quote fixed.
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Old 2nd July 2008, 19:31   #264
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samu 35amp alternator will be fine, unless you plan to blast few halogens through the night, day in day out! check the ammeter if its in + you are aok.

@madbull ram: bullet and most 2 wheelers in india have 2 charging coils IIRC, one for headlight and one for charging and hence it works, in an alternator set up its just one alternator providing the juice.
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Old 2nd July 2008, 19:54   #265
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1. A bigger capacity battery will be bigger in size and hence require mods to the battery mounting inside the engine bay?

2. Why the 2nd gear and not the 3rd or 4th gear while push starting? My understanding of push starting is that you slot into 2nd gear to get better engine revolutions (when the clutch is released). putting the gear in 3rd or 4th will give it more revolutions (gathered from the vehicle's momentum). So why are people not putting the vehicle into 3rd or even 4th?
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Old 2nd July 2008, 20:47   #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post
OK..but arent you complicating the setup with a parallel charge cutout etc..simpler option is to go for a bigger alternator and bigger battery!

Sad, you didnt buy that jeep. It was completely rebuilt thanks to ex670c.




Wow, Congrats GTO, finally your jeep is seeing daylight! Any plans to come this side of town?
Yeap, we are. Its a fix not a solution. The best is to upgrade, but if one doesnt want to upgrade then this is another route.

Yeap, I know. But you see I was starting on Jeeps and was completly dependent on other people to guide me. So missed few good ones listening to certain self taught gods. Now I am wiser, if it was now would have bought before i even blinked . Between, my Jeep is ready and its coming from Kerala on July 18th. Wanted to drive home and show it to you, all said and done you gave me the first taste of jeeping.
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Old 2nd July 2008, 20:51   #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
@madbull ram: bullet and most 2 wheelers in india have 2 charging coils IIRC, one for headlight and one for charging and hence it works, in an alternator set up its just one alternator providing the juice.
Thanks Jaggu. This was suggested by one electrician. So how does it work in this. You just one charge to the Battery and everything else is connected to battery?

I ask this because, I know my Jeep headlight was connected to the alternator originally, before we installed Bolero alternator and upgraded the headlight to 100W with a relay.
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Old 3rd July 2008, 01:55   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Not for looks, just as backup lights. Even the GV has fogs as backup.

So, can a 35A alternator charge an 80A battery? Probably not, so I'll need a bigger alternator if I switch to bigger battery. In that case I'll pass for now.
Yes a 35A alternator can charge a 80 amp-hr battery or even a 160 amp-hr battery given enough time. You will not need a bigger alternator just if you go to a bigger capacity battery. A small alternator just needs more time than a large alternator to recharge a given battery.

The battery sizing has to do with the starter motor size and having a somewhat bigger capacity batter than stock is good for diesels, especially in cold weather and/or frequent stop and start driving. Put the highest capacity / best quality battery that can fit in your jeep when you decide to buy a new one.

Upgrading the alternator is a good idea, especially since the stock 35 to 40ish amp stock alternators are junk. There are some good quality denso or bosch alternators in the 70 to 100 amp range that are really waterproof and very reliable. These will give you plenty of current to deal with aftermarket lights, accessories, and quickly re-charge a drained battery.

What's with all the talk on how to push start a jeep? Are you kidding? It is just about impossible. The only way to do this is by pulling it with another jeep.

Regards,

Gaurav
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Old 3rd July 2008, 02:59   #269
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Arrow push!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR View Post
2. Why the 2nd gear and not the 3rd or 4th gear while push starting? My understanding of push starting is that you slot into 2nd gear to get better engine revolutions (when the clutch is released). putting the gear in 3rd or 4th will give it more revolutions (gathered from the vehicle's momentum). So why are people not putting the vehicle into 3rd or even 4th?
Slight error ->
While push starting - you turn the Ignition to the ON position, slot the gear-stick into 2nd, and keep the clutch depressed (or the engine is disconnected from the wheels). That's why you can push the thing!

When the car begins moving, and you think it has attained enough momentum - that's when you release the clutch (engage), and if everything's well the engine starts.

If you use the 3rd or 4th gear for the above process, the engine will start and the car will stall, as these are taller gears - meant to be used when the engine is running at higher revs. However, depending on your vehicle's gearing, the 3rd gear might actually work.

Have you noticed what happens when you try to start off using the 3rd or 4th gear in a normal car - or if you shift into 3rd or 4th at a very low speed?
Chances are the car will sputter, knock and / or stall. Depending on the torque, 3rd gear may work at a lower speed too.

You can't push a vehicle with the clutch engaged (released), unless of course, you have a HUGE amount of power at your disposal, because essentially you're trying to turn the engine - a 2-3 man team probably can't do it.
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Old 3rd July 2008, 08:05   #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR View Post
...
2. Why the 2nd gear and not the 3rd or 4th gear while push starting? My understanding of push starting is that you slot into 2nd gear to get better engine revolutions (when the clutch is released). putting the gear in 3rd or 4th will give it more revolutions (gathered from the vehicle's momentum). So why are people not putting the vehicle into 3rd or even 4th?
To add to what Aah78 has said :

A lot of people use 2nd gear because of some theory of 1st gear being "too small" (and therefore more likely to break during push starting). Personally, i'm not convinced by that reasoning.
I would use 1st gear - its easier and it puts no more stress on the gear than it does if you were to dump your clutch in 1st at <4000rpm.

Now, your reasoning for putting the car in 4th or a higher gear is actually the opposite of reality. Just to be clear - you want more RPMs at the engine.

Lets assume that the constant thing is that 3 people will be able to push the car to 6km/h.

Now, imagine you were driving @ 6km/h in 1st gear - and 6km/h in 4th gear - in which case would the engine be spinning faster ?

1st gear.

Since you are transferring force backwards through the drivetrain, what would normally be lower gearing is now higher gearing (since the power is coming from the opposite side of the gear train)!

However, if youre rolling down a hill at 50km/h and you want to roll-start your car - choose an appropriate (higher) gear that will rev your engine to a decent level when you engage the clutch (not over-rev it).

cya
R

Last edited by Rehaan : 3rd July 2008 at 08:07.
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