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Old 5th February 2011, 18:45   #1186
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Dear Sharath,

Well it is late post, but to update, the reason for the L Clamp to break,

1- The All three bolts attached to Chassis & steering box were loose,
2- The movement & the Pressure applied when turning added to the box has resulted in breaking the L clamp,
3- This is not the First time, Have seen the same on Rajeev's Classic, had the similar problem, Couldn't get the Clamp form him, Had to weld, & now it is perfect running smooth,
4- That is why asked you to go a day in advance so that raju can see get the right part,

Well all is well, you have a safe journey,
Best regards
Vinay Thomas
------------------------------------------------------------
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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Today got my Jeep to Raju, who is the most popular offroad Jeep mechanic in Bangalore. Jaggu provided the introductions and was there whole time.

Problem list:
1) Replace the broken steering stabilizer L bolt.
2) Replace the broken mirror.

Problem fixed:
1) The steering stabilizer L bolt couldn't be replaced, because my broken bolt was longer than the stock bolt. So they took the broken bolt, welded it back and connected it back.
2) Broken mirror replaced.
3) When I opened the hood, I found diesel all over the engine. One of the fuel return pipe on the injector was leaking. The faulty pipe was replaced.
4) As I looked down casually, I found a major crack about to rupture in the lower water hose. Since I had the spare handy, it was replaced right away.

The steering still has significant play, but nowhere closed to the play with the broken bolt. We discovered that the stopper nut doesn't touch even if the steering is fully locked to one side. It was discovered that the steering idling arm is worn out, inducing the play. This is why I have huge turning radius. I need to replace the idle arm or have it brazed in the lathe.

The water hose crack I discovered...

Attachment 496133

Raju looked at the broken hose and said it was of low quality. Then I pulled out my spare hose, Raju looked it and said it was of very good quality. Ironically, the low quality one was bought in Mahindra workshop and high quality one was bought in an independent auto spares shop.

I always have to cut the lower hose by two inches at the bottom in order to fit it. I have always wondered why. Raju provided the answer. You see, I have extra spacer in front of the radiator. Since Suresh Stephan's CJ340 was right there, I could compare.

Suresh Stephan's Radiator is closer to the grill, far from the fan.

Attachment 496134

My radiator is closer to the fan thanks to the huge spacer. That is why my hoses always need to be cut.

Attachment 496135

Now, what happens if I remove that spacer. Will the cooling come down?
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Old 5th February 2011, 18:48   #1187
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4- That is why asked you to go a day in advance so that raju can see get the right part
The part is not available new in JC road, hunt started 2 days back, finally he picked up a used one from shivaji nagar. But the length shorter compared to Sharath's set up. The weld was originally made to accomodate this additional length is what we feel now.
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Old 5th February 2011, 19:23   #1188
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^^^ I think he meant brazing and then machining it, my guess. I really did not explore further.
Yeah, I guessed so, better replace the part if available.

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Oh and what is your opinion of putting that thermo stat clutch type fan blade thingie on our old jeeps??
If your stock Jeep is running fine better not tinker around with such things, BTW what is your fan size (fan outer dia)?

Spike
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Old 5th February 2011, 20:07   #1189
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^^ fan blade dia, hmm you tell me it's stock CJ3B metal blades
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Old 5th February 2011, 20:37   #1190
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If it is 4 blade type then the OD must be ~ 381mm, the Viscous clutch type fan is slightly bigger in size ~ 400 mm. The clearance of fan with shroud (even clearance is preferred) also need to be looked, before jumping into any conclusions.

Spike

PS- If it is off topic here, please shift to DwArF's thread
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Old 6th February 2011, 01:51   #1191
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Hello Sharath,

Your 340 really performed well at the Aavalakonda OTR.
The inclusion of the rubber bump on the front prop shaft side as pointed out by Behram Sahab is absolutely essential for all Peugeot type engines like XDP4.90, XD3P and even the Peugeot petrol version (I think it is known as XDP3).

The gap between the prop. shaft and the sump is to be limited when the front differential goes up, so this was installed by the manufacturer in all jeeps with the above mentioned power plant. The same were not found in the International type diesel motor powered jeeps nor the Hurricanes.

It was my ignorance to mention that the 540s and 550s only needed them because of the forward mounted spring brackets. The upward movement (tail pinion side) of the differential when under high torque causes a twist to the rear half of the front springs, and a stopper there is another good reason to be present on the right side I felt.
Please correct me on this.

Wish you all the best,
yours........................ UBS
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Old 6th February 2011, 08:59   #1192
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Hi Samurai,


I have recently changed the bump stop rubber beds on my Explorer prior to the Aavalakonda OTR. I knew that this rubber beds were always there in my Explorer right from the day I have owned it.

What I have observed is the longest bump stop bed is installed only on the right hand side of the Jeep chassis (the front differential side)

Pictures from my Jeep and the newly procured bump stop beds (though I have bought 2 beds on each size but used only 2 smaller ones on each side and one longer one on the right hand side)

Mahindra CJ340 joins Team-BHP family-26012011006.jpg

Mahindra CJ340 joins Team-BHP family-27012011.jpg
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Old 6th February 2011, 20:32   #1193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ3b View Post
1- The All three bolts attached to Chassis & steering box were loose,
2- The movement & the Pressure applied when turning added to the box has resulted in breaking the L clamp,
If loose steering box was the cause for breaking of the bolt, that means the bolt must have broken in Avalakonda. I must have driven from Manipal with a loose steering box.

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Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Brazed in the lathe?? Did not understand.
May be he said brazed and lathed. I am not familiar with the term brazed, so I wrote it as I heard it. My mistake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by U.B.Singh View Post
Your 340 really performed well at the Aavalakonda OTR.
The inclusion of the rubber bump on the front prop shaft side as pointed out by Behram Sahab is absolutely essential for all Peugeot type engines like XDP4.90, XD3P and even the Peugeot petrol version (I think it is known as XDP3).
Thanks for the clarification sir.


Ok, today I drove the Jeep back to Manipal. And it was quite an unforgettable drive.

I started off from Bangalore with the confidence that the Steering is good enough for today's drive despite the play. And.... it was. I didn't have any understeer or oversteer issue throughout the drive, even in the twisty ghat section. But there was something else altogether...

Palm Meadows, Whispering Woods, Laughing Waters, Wandering Wheels...

Yeah, they obviously sound like the new fangled names given to residential apartments these days. But there is something odd about the last one.

The last one isn't a residential apartment, instead it is the new affliction of my Jeep. Say I am driving on the road, if the road banks to one side or the other, the front wheels turn by themselves without any steering input from my side.

This behavior is generally known as pulling to the side. But in such cases, the steering too turns with the wheel. Therefore one can prevent the pull by holding the steering wheel firmly. However, in my case there is the steering play which completely masks the pulling. When the front wheels pulls to one side, the steering wheels remains unaffected. Therefore, holding the steering wheel firmly has no effect.

Now imagine how scary this can be! Until you see the vehicle moving away to the side, there is no warning. Then you have to panic and turn the steering to the other side to counter it.

I noticed this behavior very much in the outer ring road. But I couldn't analyse it right away. The drive over the Peenya flyover (15kms) where I had many scary moments, I finally figured out the behavior. I also realised that I'll have enough time to counter it if I drive at around 50kmph. Any faster, I won't have the reaction time to counter the pull, remember there is no warning.

Now we all know Jeep steering has lot of play. Still we all learn how to drive precisely in-spite of the wacky steering. But wheels turning by itself is a new concept for me. It has never happened to me in any car I owned or driven until now.

Therefore, I mostly drove around 50kmph in the good highways and 40kmph in ghat section. That way I could counter the wandering wheels every time it happened, at least 100 times. My last Jeep drive from Manipal to Bangalore took 10 hours (including breaks), this time I took 12 hours 15 minutes for the same trip back, in the same route. But I am thankful I reached safely without any trouble. I almost have a headache from focusing so much on the vehicle for 410kms, trying to anticipate the wandering. I rarely overtook any vehicle today, because any wandering during the passing maneuver can be very bad.

The same behavior was noted when driving from Avalakonda to Bangalore, but we thought it was because of the broken bolt and the half deflated tyre. Now I know it is neither. Thanks to driving in Avalakonda with a broken steering bolt, the steering system has picked up massive play.

Meanwhile, I had lot of time to think of a name for this behavior, that's how I coined the term Wandering Wheels.

What is the exact problem, how to fix this problem, somebody has to tell me... right now I am assuming steering idling arm is the culprit. Don't know any better.
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Old 6th February 2011, 20:51   #1194
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Do not compromise, remove the whole steering system from the steering wheel to tie end, inspect, repair/replace and assemble back. What you are facing in general can be termed as too much of steering play. The bigger tyres, aggravate the situation when you have play in the system.

German's bluee earlier had the same issue, remember during the Dabgali return trip.
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Old 6th February 2011, 21:46   #1195
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Dear Sharath and all - some replies to your current queries are as follows:

Axle articulation bracket - this was made by me and my colleague and a very dear personal friend Mr.Aziz Somani in 1981 when I was a trainee in Kandivli when we fitted the very first XDP4.90 engine in a CJ3B. We did not know this requirement. We broke not only the sump but the cylinder block as well. Then we learnt. We made the bracket which is now a part of the chassis. We tested the up and down movement of the front axle by attaching the handbrake ratchet to the chassis, just touching it to the axle and then driving over a speedbreaker inside the plant at 60 kmph. I still remember that I did this test on the second day of Holi in March 1981. Only security guards and I were inside the plant that day. That's why I can tell you with full confidence that the axle moves up and down by 99 mm because I measured it 30 years back. We had a Wrangler with us at that time also. In Wrangler, this bracket is sandwitched between the axle and the springs, with only a stopper on the chassis.

Radiator / Fan / Shroud Positioning - always remember that the shroud must be designed in such a way that 2/3 of the fan width must be inside the shroud and 1/3 should be outside. Radiator plane must be parallel to the fan plane, means essentially the radiator inclination to vertical will be same as engine inclination to horizontal. All this defines the spacer dimensions if it is to be incorporated. Number of tubes, number of fins, fin density, tube spacing at even or odd locations all contribute to cooling system performance. Water pump mass flow must be maintained. I don't remember the XDP4.90 specifications, will find out.

Radiator hoses - I have told you before also, please buy brand new Scorpio hoses as per part numbers from Richie and then use metallic pipes in between to get what you want. Use Maruti OE suppy hose clips. These confirm to JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard). We regularly use this method for our prototypes and run them all over the country @ 1000 odd kms/day. There is no other way.

Steering issue - now read carefully, see the number of joints where undesireable clearance can creep in. Steering worm bearings / worm to sector / sector bushings / connecting rod rear joint / connecting rod front joint / idler arm assembly bush / steering tie rod RH joint / steering tie rod to connecting rod joint / wheel ball joint RH / wheel ball joint LH / knuckle bearings RH / lnuckle bearings RH / wheel bearings RH / wheel bearings LH. Now count. Not counting the tyres themselves and the looseness on account of fasteners, you have 14 areas, where if the assembly is out of specifications, you can have the result of vague steering. Generally mechanics will remove the idler bell crank assembly and give it to a "lathewallah". These are generally dirty looking machine shops where the part is ostensibly reworked on by manufacturing a "bush" from an unknown material and assembled to remove the play" (excess clearance). This is all trial and error, more so error than anything else. I am pre-empting the result in your case. Your steering effort will increase to unacceptable level, returnability will become very poor and you will have a feeling as if a supernatural hand is trying to prevent you from turning the steering. I have dealt with more than my share of "lathewallahs" so I can confidently type this. The only way you can get any result out of the lathewallah is to look up the engineering specifications and get him to manufacture what you want. The final assembly I do myself. I have made enough parts at lathewallah workshops so I know that this is the only way. Even by mistake, don't try to teach him engineering or you will get thrown out.

And now, let me directly ask you and all those who say that "my guy can do a better job than M&M" now - any counter arguments? Forget it. Your guy cannot even get access to a decent machine shop. And, by the way, you took 12 hours for 400 kms? You remember that I had talked of running rings? Let's leave it at that. And how much more work will you do to your CJ340? I think all said and done, it will finally cost you same as a brand new vehicle with VFM = 0. I think now you will be convinced if I once again humbly request you to buy the vehicle which we have just launched. Then use it and enjoy it. Where is the great issue? It's all in your mind. There is just no comparison / competition. We know what we have done.

I REST MY CASE. Q.E.D - means, whatever was to be proved has been proved. .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 6th February 2011, 21:53   #1196
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May be he said brazed and lathed. I am not familiar with the term brazed, so I wrote it as I heard it. My mistake.
Sam, no issues! I had understood what you wanted to say, still I wanted to confirm, sorry!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Do not compromise, remove the whole steering system from the steering wheel to tie end, inspect, repair/replace and assemble back. What you are facing in general can be termed as too much of steering play. The bigger tyres, aggravate the situation when you have play in the system.
Hmm, makes sense (treat the cause rather focusing too much on the symptoms). BTW, how does the vehicle respond in a straight patch when Braked, does it track straight? (I presume tyre pressures are correct.)

Spike
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Old 6th February 2011, 22:14   #1197
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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
And now, let me directly ask you and all those who say that "my guy can do a better job than M&M" now - any counter arguments? Forget it. Your guy cannot even get access to a decent machine shop.
In Udupi, all authorised workshops (even M&M) and independent mechanics go to the same Independent machine shop called Apollo Engineering works.

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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
And, by the way, you took 12 hours for 400 kms? You remember that I had talked of running rings?
12 hours because of the wandering problem. Otherwise I can do it in 10 hours in Jeep and 8 hours in Grand Vitara. All these include one hour of break time. So it is 9 hours and 7 hours driving time respectively. Now consider the fact that this is no ordinary highway. The route is so screwed up since 5 years, we have a 3000+ post thread discussing it.

Sample of the Highways I travel.




Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Let's leave it at that. And how much more work will you do to your CJ340? I think all said and done, it will finally cost you same as a brand new vehicle with VFM = 0.
It is sunk cost over 3 years. BTW, can a new vehicle teach me as much as an old Jeep?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
I think now you will be convinced if I once again humbly request you to buy the vehicle which we have just launched. Then use it and enjoy it. Where is the great issue? It's all in your mind. There is just no comparison / competition. We know what we have done.
Oh, I have mentioned the issue long back, and repeatedly. I need HT and AC. Also, the dealers are saying that Thar will lose warranty if tyres are changed or seats are changed, etc. Now that is an added concern.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Hmm, makes sense (treat the cause rather focusing too much on the symptoms). BTW, how does the vehicle respond in a straight patch when Braked, does it track straight?
Yeah, braking is straight, no issues at all. The only problem is unexpected wandering even when it is in straight line.
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Old 7th February 2011, 11:15   #1198
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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post

The last one isn't a residential apartment, instead it is the new affliction of my Jeep. Say I am driving on the road, if the road banks to one side or the other, the front wheels turn by themselves without any steering input from my side.

This behavior is generally known as pulling to the side. But in such cases, the steering too turns with the wheel. Therefore one can prevent the pull by holding the steering wheel firmly. However, in my case there is the steering play which completely masks the pulling. When the front wheels pulls to one side, the steering wheels remains unaffected. Therefore, holding the steering wheel firmly has no effect.

Now imagine how scary this can be! Until you see the vehicle moving away to the side, there is no warning. Then you have to panic and turn the steering to the other side to counter it.

I noticed this behavior very much in the outer ring road. But I couldn't analyse it right away. The drive over the Peenya flyover (15kms) where I had many scary moments, I finally figured out the behavior. I also realised that I'll have enough time to counter it if I drive at around 50kmph. Any faster, I won't have the reaction time to counter the pull, remember there is no warning.

Now we all know Jeep steering has lot of play. Still we all learn how to drive precisely in-spite of the wacky steering. But wheels turning by itself is a new concept for me. It has never happened to me in any car I owned or driven until now.

Therefore, I mostly drove around 50kmph in the good highways and 40kmph in ghat section. That way I could counter the wandering wheels every time it happened, at least 100 times. My last Jeep drive from Manipal to Bangalore took 10 hours (including breaks), this time I took 12 hours 15 minutes for the same trip back, in the same route. But I am thankful I reached safely without any trouble. I almost have a headache from focusing so much on the vehicle for 410kms, trying to anticipate the wandering. I rarely overtook any vehicle today, because any wandering during the passing maneuver can be very bad.

The same behavior was noted when driving from Avalakonda to Bangalore, but we thought it was because of the broken bolt and the half deflated tyre. Now I know it is neither. Thanks to driving in Avalakonda with a broken steering bolt, the steering system has picked up massive play.

Meanwhile, I had lot of time to think of a name for this behavior, that's how I coined the term Wandering Wheels.

What is the exact problem, how to fix this problem, somebody has to tell me... right now I am assuming steering idling arm is the culprit. Don't know any better.
Hi Sharath,

The Toe-In has changed.

This is result of Steering Hard on heavily undulating/rutted surface, especially in 4WD Low.

This can be aggravated by
1) Broader Tyres
2) Front LSD/Locker

The Toe-In has changed, with the older steering system, 7 Ball Joints develop a "very minimal play" while it is transmitted to the steering wheel, it can become almost half a turn.

If you don't get a proper L-Bolt, you can fabricate a bracket to bolt the steering box-brace and weld it to the Chassis, IIRC, the Classic and MM550XD have this instead of the L-Bolt.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 7th February 2011, 12:46   #1199
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Hi Sharath,

The Toe-In has changed.

This is result of Steering Hard on heavily undulating/rutted surface, especially in 4WD Low.
Apart from toe-in, the caster angle plays a part in keeping the wheels in a straight line. In your case the wheels are wandering as they have lost the "self centering" property. In such situations the wheels will wander arbitrarily on flat surface and wander towards down slope (as on normal roads), that is towards edge. That it is the wheels and not the rest of the steering system is borne by the fact that the steering wheel also follows the wheels.

Both the Toe-in and Castor can change due to "not so tight" nuts & bolts in suspension. In my experience if a vehicle is to be used hard, then it is advisable to use new high tensile bolts every time and torque tighten them to prevent their working loose, shifting the suspension alignment. 100km of rough terrain is equivalent to over 2000km of normal roads as far as tightness of nuts and bolts are concerned (that is the reason for rattles surfacing after a ride on rough roads, in spite of careful tightening!).
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Old 7th February 2011, 15:09   #1200
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Dear Sharath - if you feel that this communication is deviating from your CJ340 issues, please feel free to delete the posts without any hesitation. After correcting the steering, please also carry out a coefficient of rolling resistance test on your CJ340. Let's see how effective the tyres are. I am sending you the procedure by a PM.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

Last edited by Samurai : 7th February 2011 at 16:10. Reason: thar content moved to Thar thread
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