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Old 30th November 2011, 12:45   #1411
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Default Re: Mahindra CJ340 joins Team-BHP family

Dear Santosh / Sharath - let me explain once again in totality.

First, the "FIP solenoid": When it is not energized (key off mode), it has its plunger in the "exposed" position, stopping fuel flow to the engine, thus stopping the engine. When it is energized, it keeps its plunger in the "retracted" position, thus allowing fuel to flow which operates the engine.

Now the "starter motor solenoid": When it is not energized (key off / key on but key not in cranking mode), it has its plunger in the "exposed" position, thus not actuating the starter motor drive gear. When it is energized, (key in cranking mode), it has its plunger in "retracted" mode, pushing the starter motor drive gear towards the flywheel and cranking the engine.

You will observe that although the basic functionality is the same, the current flow in both cases is completely different. The starter motor solenoid takes around 400 amperes at the instant of engagement which immediately drops to around 50 amperes during the continuance of the cranking phase. This high current is required to physically push the starter drive gear to its engaged position. In case of the FIP solenoid, the current required is around 5 amperes only.

Now read carefully: This is not known to many people. In case of the starter solenoid, the entire shunt current passes through its main terminals which in the long run corrodes the terminals electrically. This is what determines the solenoid life. The solenoid is actuated by a field coil, energized when the key is held in the "cranking" position. In order to provide better reliability quotient and life to the starter motor solenoid, it is adviseable to route its energizing circuit through another similar solenoid mounted in the engine compartment. The main solenoid energizer wire becomes the shunt for the remote mounted second solenoid. We had introduced this system in production the Premier Padmini 137D / Premier 1.38D diesel cars from 1992 onwards to provide a stable life cycle to the starter motor solenoid. You can do it for one car. Use a Premier Padmini starter motor solenoid switch manufactured by lucas TVS and still available brand new across Lucas TVS outlets across the country. Route the starter motor solenoid actuator wire through this remote solenoid and route the wire from the ignition switch to energise this remote solenoid. This solenoid is still manufactured and available because it is still used in commercial vehicles with the same circuit either for starter / heater applications.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 30th November 2011, 15:20   #1412
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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
The solenoid is actuated by a field coil, energized when the key is held in the "cranking" position. In order to provide better reliability quotient and life to the starter motor solenoid, it is adviseable to route its energizing circuit through another similar solenoid mounted in the engine compartment. The main solenoid energizer wire becomes the shunt for the remote mounted second solenoid. We had introduced this system in production the Premier Padmini 137D / Premier 1.38D diesel cars from 1992 onwards to provide a stable life cycle to the starter motor solenoid. You can do it for one car. Use a Premier Padmini starter motor solenoid switch manufactured by lucas TVS and still available brand new across Lucas TVS outlets across the country. Route the starter motor solenoid actuator wire through this remote solenoid and route the wire from the ignition switch to energise this remote solenoid. This solenoid is still manufactured and available because it is still used in commercial vehicles with the same circuit either for starter / heater applications.
This part just went over my head. Can I see a circuit? Because I can analyse a circuit well enough.

Today when the mechanic called me, I told him to replace the solenoid switch with the Premier Padmini diesel car solenoid switch. But I couldn't explain why or how.

Meanwhile, he says all my brake liners are torn, need to replace them. Two of the axle bearings in rear and one in the front have also gone bad. How many axle bearings are there, is it 4 or 8? The differential side has bearings? Just wondering.
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Old 30th November 2011, 16:04   #1413
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How many axle bearings are there, is it 4 or 8? The differential side has bearings? Just wondering.
Hi Sharath,

Front 2 on Each Hub = 4 Bearings

Rear 1 behind each Hub (SFRA) = 2 Bearings

The Differential Carrier uses 2 Bearings each = 4 Bearings.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 30th November 2011, 17:45   #1414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
...This solenoid is still manufactured and available because it is still used in commercial vehicles with the same circuit either for starter / heater applications...
Thanks a lot Dhabhar sir, though most of it went above my head too, I will talk to my electrician and try to execute it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
...Two of the axle bearings in rear and one in the front have also gone bad. How many axle bearings are there, is it 4 or 8? The differential side has bearings?
Samu,Some acronyms I learnt from loitering around my mechs place

1) SFRA - called as (i) single bearing axle (ii) pin type axle

2) FFRA - double bearing axle

Actually the 'axle' ^ refers to the hub. SFRA has only 1 bearing on the HUB side and FFRA has 2 on hub side.

PS - BOTH dont have bearings on the diff side - they go thru a oil seal (applicable only to FFRA), well, from an axle POV per se - but the diff-carrier itself needs couple of bearings (see Arka's ^).

PPS - You are lucky- if your one axle SFRA bearing had gone bust!

Last edited by svsantosh : 30th November 2011 at 17:49.
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Old 30th November 2011, 18:05   #1415
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Isn't it a good idea to replace all bearings at one go if its already opened up?
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Old 30th November 2011, 18:14   #1416
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I think it is already closed too. I had asked them to service all the brakes and hubs, in addition to the starter.
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Old 30th November 2011, 18:19   #1417
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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
This part just went over my head. Can I see a circuit? Because I can analyse a circuit well enough. Today when the mechanic called me, I told him to replace the solenoid switch with the Premier Padmini diesel car solenoid switch. But I couldn't explain why or how. Meanwhile, he says all my brake liners are torn, need to replace them. Two of the axle bearings in rear and one in the front have also gone bad. How many axle bearings are there, is it 4 or 8? The differential side has bearings? Just wondering.
Dear Sharath - I have made the circuit diagram on a piece of paper which I can scan and post to you if required. I am describing here in detail. It should be sufficient for a good technician to understand and implement. Please follow this process to integrate the Lucas TVS solenoid in the starter circuit.

Existing system: There are 3 aggregates, the battery, the ignition switch and the starter motor. Battery: Negative is connected to chassis and body as earth. Positive is connected to the main input terminal of the starter motor solenoid. Ignition Switch: Terminal "30" is connected to battery positive. Terminal "15/50" is connected to the FIP solenoid. Terminal "50" is connected to the small solenoid actuating terminal of the starter motor solenoid. Starter Motor: As explained, main terminal is connected to battery positive. Small actuating terminal is connected to the "50" terminal of the ignition switch. Second main terminal is connected to the starter motor brush positive. Starter moror body is connected to earth.

How to introduce the Lucas TVS solenoid in the starter motor circuit: Remove the battery terminals before starting this work on the car. Fit the Lucas TVS solenoid in the engine compartment, preferably near the battery. Vertical orientation is necessary for optimum performance. Remove the small wire from the starter motor solenoid and connect it to the small terminal of the Lucas TVS solenoid. As this wire comes from the "50" terminal of the ignition switch, instead of energizing the starter motor solenoid, it will now energize the Lucas TVS solenoid. Connect one of the major terminals of the Lucas TVS solenoid to the battery positive terminal with a thick automotive grade Finolex make wire (battery cable is not required, 84 specification will be sufficient). Connect the other major terminal of the Lucas TVS solenoid to the small terminal of the starter motor solenoid with a thick automotive grade Finolex make wire (again battery cable is not required). This is the terminal which has become free when you removed the original wire from it. That's it. When you turn the ignition switch, it will energize the Lucas TVS solenoid which will shunt the current to the starter motor solenoid which will in turn energize it and operate the starter motor drive gear. The advantage of this system mainly results in improved life, reliability and performance of the vehicle's starting circuit. Be careful to provide for eyelet terminals at the solenoid points, solder all joints, route and tape the additional harness properly. It must look like a work of automotive art. I have done it in my rally cars so I know.

Brake liners: Be careful, stay away from aftermarket liners, they will lead to "morning sickness" (grabbing in cold condition with high humidity). Use OE parts and rivet them on a press, not with a hammer. Tell Richie to help you out.

Wheel bearings: Front - there are 4 wheel bearings, 2 inner, 2 outer. In normal use, they must last for around 100000 kms. In CL340, as FAW is very much in design control, there have been instances where wheel bearings have exceeded this usage. Rear - CL340 uses semi-floating axle shaft so there is 1 bearing each at the rear wheel ends. In addition, there are 4 bearings in the final drive assembly, 2 for the pinion and 2 for the crown wheel. The final drive bearings have design life of infinity, means that if properly lubricated and not overloaded, they shall last for the life of the vehicle which is 3,50,000 kms. Please do not open the final drive module of the rear axle without proper root cause analysis. Overhauling a rear axle is not everybody's cup of tea. If preload is not set properly, it will play havoc with the axle and destroy it. I suggest you assemble "high mounted breathers" (plastic pipes mounted on the breather couplings, routed to high points in the chassis and clipped properly) to both the axle tubes / transmission / transfer case to completely prevent any water ingress in these aggregates. You can change rear wheel end bearings, they have a design life of around 100000 kms but considering the almost inept condition in which you picked up your vehicle, it is better to replace them and be done with it once and for all, as you intend to keep your vehicle in perfect order for a very long time.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

PS - your vehicle must be prepared to such an excellent / perfect state of tune that if you want to go anywhere at any time, you just connect the battery terminals, add fuel and drive, that's all! By the way, that's how a certain black "MH01V521" went for the AKC/EXAMM and also to Hyderabad last year. Appearances can be deceptive. That's how a certain white "MH14CSXXXX" runs now also! .
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Old 30th November 2011, 18:46   #1418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
This part just went over my head. Can I see a circuit? Because I can analyse a circuit well enough.
This might help ( perhaps this is the thing BD Sir was talking about ) -- check this . This kind of thing was in My Amby too ( now sold , so no pic ) --Ahh there is one fat ( Padmini ) down stairs, let me take a pic but later ----

Mahindra CJ340 joins Team-BHP family-scan0002.jpg

Mahindra CJ340 joins Team-BHP family-scan0003a.jpg

Quote:
Today when the mechanic called me, I told him to replace the solenoid switch with the Premier Padmini diesel car solenoid switch. But I couldn't explain why or how.
Art of confusing mechanics -- works good some times -- otherwise a boomerang

Quote:
Meanwhile, he says all my brake liners are torn, need to replace them. Two of the axle bearings in rear and one in the front have also gone bad. How many axle bearings are there, is it 4 or 8? The differential side has bearings? Just wondering.
Arkaji ( & DB Sir too ) have explained it already , but one thing to add here , for the SFRA bearing there is a grease nipple provided . You can locate it on Axle tube flange ( where the liner plate bolts to axle housing are ) One can keep a small Grease gun filled with WB grease & give a shot or two once in six months ---& bla bla bla ( means one need not take out the single bearing for greasing frequently & other things )

BTW Thanks you gave me a chance to whisper with my library ( for the wiring diagram )

Sudarshan
P.S. -- Wow BD Sir was quick --while I was scanning the diagram --

Last edited by Sudarshan : 30th November 2011 at 18:50.
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Old 30th November 2011, 19:32   #1419
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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Isn't it a good idea to replace all bearings at one go if its already opened up?
Why bother changing a perfectly working part? And they dont come cheap too, at 500-600 for a well branded wheel bearing you are looking at 4k+ for a FFRA'ed jeep?! 3K for SFRAd...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
How to introduce the Lucas TVS solenoid in the starter motor circuit:
Thanks sir, You once spoke of shunting the ammeter wire direct to starter motor to increase the efficiency of battery charging - I hope it holds good in this idea too?

Quote:
"morning sickness"
YIKES - Tell me about it, once my regular routine was drive the 1st 500mts with left leg on brakes to drag and heat them up to avoid pulling all over!!

Sharat - Hope your mech found a press shop unlike my guy who always ends up in a hand-riveting place!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
for the SFRA bearing there is a grease nipple provided . You can locate it on Axle tube flange ( where the liner plate bolts to axle housing are)
Does anyone actually take the pain to grease this point in a SFRA jeep? Never heard of any1 actually do this...

Arka - What will be the use/effect if I grease ^ this grease point (the one behind the carrier plate, in my FFRA setup?) I am hoping it will grease the axles (i am visualizing the spindle and oil seals on both sides), right? But over greasing will pop open any one oil seal? Or just ooze out while filling?
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Old 30th November 2011, 20:31   #1420
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Originally Posted by svsantosh View Post
Arka - What will be the use/effect if I grease ^ this grease point (the one behind the carrier plate, in my FFRA setup?) I am hoping it will grease the axles (i am visualizing the spindle and oil seals on both sides), right? But over greasing will pop open any one oil seal? Or just ooze out while filling?
Hi Santosh,

In the SFRA, when the Bearing is seated, the greasing will work otherwise you may end up pumping in a lot of grease, which is not necessary.

Apply a light film of grease on the FF Axle before fitting.

When converted to FF, the SFRA grease point sucks water into the axle tube, better to close it with a bolt.

the 48.5 & 51" (non MM550XD) rear Axle have the Diff -Axle Breather on the Axle Tube,
1) In case of using the inner (diff) Oil Seals the Axle Tube Breather also needs to be closed and a breather can be added on the diff-cover.

2) If inner (diff) oil seal is not used then the breather on the axle tube can be raised, by changing the nipple to a 7mm air hose nipple and using a PVC pipe to get the desired height and the open end closed with a Banjo Bolt, and secured with 2 clips on either end.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 30th November 2011, 20:44   #1421
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Originally Posted by svsantosh View Post
Does anyone actually take the pain to grease this point in a SFRA jeep? Never heard of any1 actually do this...
SIGH ,
I did , Our 540 came with the SFRA ( UNFORTUNATELY -- only later to be converted to FFRA by me )

Quote:
Arka - What will be the use/effect if I grease ^ this grease point (the one behind the carrier plate, in my FFRA setup?) I am hoping it will grease the axles (i am visualizing the spindle and oil seals on both sides), right? But over greasing will pop open any one oil seal? Or just ooze out while filling?
Can I answer this ?? when he is not nearby ?

OK

1) No

2) NO

See this, this is official ( really ) even came to my 540 ( 1989 ) will still be there on newer models ( if not cost cutted )

Mahindra CJ340 joins Team-BHP family-scan0004a.jpg

Sudarshan

P. S. I talk too much --- because of you people

Last edited by Sudarshan : 30th November 2011 at 20:47.
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Old 1st December 2011, 10:32   #1422
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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
When converted to FF, the SFRA grease point sucks water into the axle tube, better to close it with a bolt.
- no wonder, during the recent FFRA rework I noticed water+grease paste over the axles (but thankfully due to inner oil seals - diff oil escaped) - (and thx to outer seal - hub grease too escaped)!!

Let me do the bolt job ASAP! thx a ton for this tip!!

Quote:
The 48.5 & 51" (non MM550XD) rear Axle have the Diff -Axle Breather on the Axle Tube,

1) In case of using the inner (diff) Oil Seals the Axle Tube Breather also needs to be closed and a breather can be added on the diff-cover.
Ok, now this was totally unknown (not thought of) to me. What you are saying (i think for the 1st time ever) - is because of the inner oil seal being added as a mod to the FFRA conversion - the existence of the axle-pipe breather is totally USELESS!!

Bulb ON 'BLINK' - so thats why the front diff has the breather on its head and not anywhere on the axle pipe... I had this Question LOOONG time ago, but never got to ask it in open forum!! (why the front and rear axle breather points are in different places)

---------Ok so now.... Arka please help with a pic or 2 on how to fabricate this breather pipe on the diff cover?

Do I just take a breather nut (banjo bolt) and drill a hole of its same dia on the door and fit a hose? As simple as it sounds?
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Old 1st December 2011, 10:51   #1423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svsantosh View Post
---------Ok so now.... Arka please help with a pic or 2 on how to fabricate this breather pipe on the diff cover?
Do I just take a breather nut (banjo bolt) and drill a hole of its same dia on the door and fit a hose? As simple as it sounds?
Hi Santosh,

Pic up a spare diff cover and drill a hole on top of the diff cover.

The Hole can be made of a Brass L-Union used in the Solex Carb, or a Banjo & Bolt Type, then attach the PVC Pipe and secure it with a clip.

This type of Diff-Cover was used on the Dana 25 Front Axles till 1966-70c.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 1st December 2011, 11:54   #1424
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I have breather pipes on both my diffs. Let me take a snap once I get my Jeep back from service.
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Old 1st December 2011, 13:42   #1425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svsantosh View Post
You once spoke of shunting the ammeter wire direct to starter motor to increase the efficiency of battery charging - I hope it holds good in this idea too? YIKES - Tell me about it, once my regular routine was drive the 1st 500mts with left leg on brakes to drag and heat them up to avoid pulling all over!!
Dear Santosh - for ammeter, you are correct. I had mentioned it before. Just connect both wires to one of the terminals. It is as if there is no ammeter. As an instrument it will not indicate anything. This shunting will increase system reliability for Lucas TVS SA15 alternator. For brakes, liner specification is extremely important. I do not have the specification at my fingertips but I'll try and get it for you.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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