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Old 7th June 2009, 03:12   #31
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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post

First of all you are confusing between trail driving and offroading. In Team-BHP or Jeep Thrills, when we say offroading we mean driving over natural obstacles, climbing hills without roads, etc. Offroading also refers to driving on broken tarmac or dirt track. Going to Ladakh or Thar desert on trails used by regular traffic is not offroading in our parlance. Lot of 2WD vehicles too drive these trails.

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@Samurai is right in the sense, that you might be confusing between Trail rated vehicles or a real offroader, personally i consider bolero 4X4 OE as a soft roader with luxuries like P.S, P.W and A.C.

Moreover , i believe that there can never be one perfect offroader as specs change with the offroad conditions unless we start going into tatra 6X6 or 8X8 categories.
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Old 7th June 2009, 04:47   #32
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Wolf, I know you have some very impressive background in modding and racing area. I respect you for that, but I am not aware of your background in 4x4 or offroading world. Considering you have only 4 posts in 4x4 section prior to this thread, it is safe to presume you are relatively new to 4x4 and offroading. Do correct me if I am wrong..
Sir, I am pretty glad to realize that you have done a lot of background verification on me and that I dont have an identity crisis even in a 4x4 thread, thank you so very much!

On a serious note, I wouldnt mind being called a ~"ROOKIE"~ in the 4x4 / offroading world hence was my attempt to invite meaningful inputs from which all the rookies on the forum can learn from you pros...and Im glad Im successful in doing so looking at your beautiful inputs below. Bear with rookies like me, I know it can be annoying for people of your stature...

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You want me to defend my statement about Gurkha? There are enough posts on Gurkha in this section that can drown you 10 times over. Have you read any of them before making a statement like this?..
Yes I have, have read atleast 50%-60%, haha definitely more than most people reading about drags and Hondas here...

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I have actually driven the Gurkha offroad, and can only shake my head at such a statement...
I said Im sorry, are you like going to beat me up next or something????

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
First of all you are confusing between trail driving and offroading. In Team-BHP or Jeep Thrills, when we say offroading we mean driving over natural obstacles, climbing hills without roads, etc. Offroading also refers to driving on broken tarmac or dirt track. Going to Ladakh or Thar desert on trails used by regular traffic is not offroading in our parlance. Lot of 2WD vehicles too drive these trails....
Aah, thats something I knew but the knowledge just got better... Hey, do you know anyone who has done these trails on a gurkha?

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I am a keen follower of 4WD and offroading since two years and been offroading since 18 months, I even have two 4x4 vehicles. However, even today I can't figure which is the best offroader in India. Each have their strength and weakness. My top 3 choices are Jeep, Gypsy & Gurkha, but don't ask me the order, I still can't decide. If you consider OE only, then Gurkha it is....
Fantastic, I know it can be a bit confusing sometimes, lets wait for others response now...

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All the reasoning have been discussed over and over many times in the 4x4 section. Please read them, and then attend a few events, and then drive in a few events. Just comparing specs won't help if you haven't actually done offroading. My CJ340 has 62HP/12kgm engine, now ask rippergeo how underpowered it felt. He has a pete'ed Swift Vdi and he rode my Jeep full day on-road and off-road in Munnar....
I know the power deliver of these machines comes to life only when taken to where its required the most. These little monsters can be surprising sometimes, probably M&M charges us so much more for these simple machines due to the inbuilt surprise factor!!! Rippergo, where art thou, I have a question for ya...

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I have seen lots of offroader in action, however I don't remember ever being impressed by a Bolero. Plonking CDRe engine cannot suddenly make Bolero into a superior offroader, it surely didn't work with Scorpio.
Yeah, this again can be extremely subjective...Im sure there are so many here who would choose a Bolero over a GV. Its not about how each one feels about Bolero is what we're interested in, we're just trying to bring out something against the dormancy in the Boleros character coz so many others here feel that its THE best platform for the gene development of an extremely uncompromised/ almost perfect non-competition offroader in its class... Few folks who are die hard Bolero fans out here can throw more light to the context.

Last edited by The Wolf : 7th June 2009 at 05:05.
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Old 7th June 2009, 08:55   #33
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Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
Sir, I am pretty glad to realize that you have done a lot of background verification on me and that I dont have an identity crisis even in a 4x4 thread, thank you so very much!
I don't need to do background verification, being a long time member like you, I am familiar with your achievements.

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Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
On a serious note, I wouldn't mind being called a ~"ROOKIE"~ in the 4x4 / offroading world hence was my attempt to invite meaningful inputs from which all the rookies on the forum can learn from you pros...and Im glad Im successful in doing so looking at your beautiful inputs below. Bear with rookies like me, I know it can be annoying for people of your stature...
Hmm, now you went totally off the tangent. I generally place myself just above a newbie and still a long way to rookie. I know khan_sultan, Suresh Stephan,etc consider themselves rookies in offroading. So if you don't mind being called a rookie, then I should be learning from you, and I don't mind it. Regarding my stature, you don't have to respect my advanced age or moderator-ship. In discussions like this they don't count. Most people I take advice from are generally a decade younger than me. As mentioned in my moderator intro, I still remain the least knowledgeable moderator when it comes to automobiles. In fact, I found out how to fill oil in the Jeep only when I lost the engine oil at 1AM in Munnar OTR.

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Yes I have, have read at least 50%-60%, haha definitely more than most people reading about drags and Hondas here...
To be frank I do read the drag/mod threads once in while. Not out of interest, but forced by moderator duty to resolve the numerous fights that break out there.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai
I have actually driven the Gurkha offroad, and can only shake my head at such a statement...
I said Im sorry, are you like going to beat me up next or something????
Is shaking head prelude to a fist fight? Interesting concept, but one that is unfamiliar to me.

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Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
Yeah, this again can be extremely subjective...Im sure there are so many here who would choose a Bolero over a GV.
Is that supposed to provoke me? Nice try, but the statement is making my smile. Bolero is a better offroader than GV, has better FE than GV, costs just 40% of GV. So yeah, I can imagine lots of people who will choose a Bolero over GV.

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Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
Its not about how each one feels about Bolero is what we're interested in, we're just trying to bring out something against the dormancy in the Boleros character coz so many others here feel that its THE best platform for the gene development of an extremely uncompromised/ almost perfect non-competition offroader in its class... Few folks who are die hard Bolero fans out here can throw more light to the context.
We do have some Bolero fans in this section. But I have never seen them claiming that Bolero is the best offroader in the country.

Wolf, I know you can keep at this, so I'll make my point quickly. As I mentioned already, I respect your achievements and knowledge in modding/dragging, etc. But lateral transfer of racing knowledge to offroading doesn't really work. So I was more than a little surprised to find you in 4x4 section starting a thread with a controversial title, and then you are asking people to support their claims when they respond to you.

If I go into ICE section and start a thread saying "Isn't Bose the greatest speaker system ever?" or go into motor sport section and start a thread saying "Isn't Santro the best highway cruiser?", what kind of reaction I am supposed to expect? Mind you, there are lots of people who think Bose is the best and also people who think Santro can blaze the trail at 150-160kmph on the expressway.

If I am getting into new territory, I would start by asking a question, and not by making a controversial declaration. But that's just me, I have neither automotive knowledge nor racing experience, so humility comes without effort. But the 4x4 section here has some very senior and very knowledgeable people, no, don't even think of counting me among them. If you want their feedback, you could at least make a pretense at being humble, if not they won't bother responding to you.

Anyway, you are already a rookie, there is nothing I can teach you. But I can give you one advice, something non-technical. Offroading scene is a very friendly and non-competitive circle. And it is a very small world, by the time you attend 2-3 events, you'll know most regular offroaders on close terms. Many of them never even log into Team-BHP or Jeep Thrills, but know hell of a lot more than most keyboard warriors like us. You'll have a much better experience if you enter the offroading world with an open mind rather than preconceived notions. I know you are likely to throw away my advice like a dirty diaper, but I'll be content in knowing that I gave a sound advice, which I admit is entirely unsolicited.
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Old 7th June 2009, 10:15   #34
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I have the 4X2 VLX CRDe and having been driven around in my Dad's MG 410 and MM540 in the early stages of my life, I feel that the best off - roader would no doubt be the Gypsy because of the following:
  1. Power to weight ratio. I'm talking about the 1.3 Litre MPFI.
  2. Wheel base.
  3. Petrol, so go anywhere. That was one reason why my Dad always had the Gypsy on his trips to Ladakh and Kashmir.
  4. Ground Clearance.
Having said that, I also remember riding on MM540 fully loaded taking on the steepest of the inclines off road very easily.

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3. Ground clearance : Gurkha (235) > Gypsy (210) > Bolero (180).
In my 4X2 its 205 mm. Don't know whether this will be the same in 4X4.

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6. Overhangs : Disadvantage Bolero here as well.
Don't quite agree on this one.
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Old 7th June 2009, 14:31   #35
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Is that supposed to provoke me? Nice try, but the statement is making my smile. Bolero is a better offroader than GV, has better FE than GV, costs just 40% of GV. So yeah, I can imagine lots of people who will choose a Bolero over GV..
No, it wasnt anywhere close to provoke you, I was just bringing out the subjectiveness of this discussion...and GV was to get you to relate to it.

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We do have some Bolero fans in this section. But I have never seen them claiming that Bolero is the best offroader in the country..
I never said that too, did I?? I just have heard a lotta people say that the Bolero platform is the best in that segment. Im sorry if I came across defiantly...

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Wolf, I know you can keep at this, so I'll make my point quickly. As I mentioned already, I respect your achievements and knowledge in modding/dragging, etc. But lateral transfer of racing knowledge to offroading doesn't really work. So I was more than a little surprised to find you in 4x4 section starting a thread with a controversial title, and then you are asking people to support their claims when they respond to you...
Frankly, I dont want to display my prowess here, I am an ardent reader and do a lot of reading silently. If you think Im trying to make a lateral transfer from A to B, it aint true, guess I know about all this stuff a little more than your underestimated welcome here

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If I go into ICE section and start a thread saying "Isn't Bose the greatest speaker system ever?" or go into motor sport section and start a thread saying "Isn't Santro the best highway cruiser?", what kind of reaction I am supposed to expect? Mind you, there are lots of people who think Bose is the best and also people who think Santro can blaze the trail at 150-160kmph on the expressway....
Are you trying to say that a Bolero as an offroader is only as good a santro on the highway??? I mean, that is a blow below the belt for the whole Bolero fraternity, Im gonna take a while to get over it

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
If I am getting into new territory, I would start by asking a question, and not by making a controversial declaration. But that's just me, I have neither automotive knowledge nor racing experience, so humility comes without effort. But the 4x4 section here has some very senior and very knowledgeable people, no, don't even think of counting me among them. If you want their feedback, you could at least make a pretense at being humble, if not they won't bother responding to you.....
Please read the tone of the thread name again, it aint no declaration sir, its an adrenaline raising question, lol. I never played un-humble to any member out here, am I missing something here? Im extremely sorry if I came across that way unintentionally.

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Anyway, you are already a rookie, there is nothing I can teach you. But I can give you one advice, something non-technical. Offroading scene is a very friendly and non-competitive circle. And it is a very small world, by the time you attend 2-3 events, you'll know most regular offroaders on close terms. Many of them never even log into Team-BHP or Jeep Thrills, but know hell of a lot more than most keyboard warriors like us. You'll have a much better experience if you enter the offroading world with an open mind rather than preconceived notions. I know you are likely to throw away my advice like a dirty diaper, but I'll be content in knowing that I gave a sound advice, which I admit is entirely unsolicited.
I respect your thoughts completely however if attending offroad trips is a license to be able to comment on this thread in ones own mind, I am a skeptic there. I have been following offroading since a long time and I can bet I have been inquisitive about getting to know about these machines than a lotta folks here...im speaking right from wranglers to suzuki samurais to unimogs to pinzgauer to baja buggies to nitromethane big buggies to kamazs to svobodas to DT-30 vitaz to UAZs to Krazs to the ZIL-2906 (yes, I am a little taken towards russian army kinds, hehe). Infact I tried to sync up with Khansultan in one of the recent offroad trips, alas I couldnt make it due to last moment office matters. Never the less, I take your advice and will match a wheel with you in the dirt sometime REALLY soon...

Last edited by The Wolf : 7th June 2009 at 14:35.
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Old 7th June 2009, 14:54   #36
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DirtyDiaper...a relative of mine, I believe. Anybody know the wheelbase of the Bolero 4x4 by chance. Just wondering how prone it might be to getting hung up on a berm, burm, birm, byrm....pick one or add your own.
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Old 7th June 2009, 15:03   #37
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DirtyDiaper...a relative of mine, I believe. Anybody know the wheelbase of the Bolero 4x4 by chance. Just wondering how prone it might be to getting hung up on a berm, burm, birm, byrm....pick one or add your own.
The Bolero standard chassis wheelbase is 2680mm...however thats not the real culprit, its the GC that can be a little hindering. Tyre upgrade to bigger, better ones are a must as I see it if one wants to do some serious offroading

Last edited by The Wolf : 7th June 2009 at 15:06.
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Old 7th June 2009, 16:12   #38
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The biggest flaw in the Bolero as far as i am concerned is the underpowered engine. The other issues like GC can be overcome by putting in larger diameter tires and off-setting it higher diff ration so not to loose power/torque. However changing the engine and putting something aftermarket shouldn't have to be done to a new vehicle. XD3T (Turbo would have been a great choice).

We have a lot of tuners for petrol cars in India. Wish we had some good diesel engine modifiers.
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Old 7th June 2009, 20:33   #39
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Hi i would like to add in one more to the already mentioned vehicles above-what about the Invader?can it address some of the flaws of the Bolero especially that of the wheelbase etc.?
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Old 7th June 2009, 23:28   #40
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Now don't get Brutus started on the invader. Here is a good discussion on Bolero: https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-t...iculation.html
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Old 8th June 2009, 01:48   #41
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Thanks for that link samurai, just saw one in the mahindra showroom here and wanted to know about it!!

The Kerala police uses them in large numbers now-guess they replacing the older mahindras' with these!!
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Old 8th June 2009, 03:03   #42
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I think all your opinion will change if mercedes benz Galaendewagen affectionately called here in US as the G is available in India.this monster is the off-roader with 3 differential locks,solid rigid axels both front and rear .It comes in 3 diff styles ,a short wheel base,a cabriolet both not available in US and a long wheel base(US) and have AMG version available.the diesel is very popular in europe.
After having driven one of these, both the AMG and non-amg version, I am in love. For anybody who is interested, just do a search on youtube. They are VERY popular in Europe.
The AMG version was crazy. 0-60 in 4.6 seconds; An SUV too!
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Old 8th June 2009, 07:23   #43
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After having driven one of these, both the AMG and non-amg version, I am in love. For anybody who is interested, just do a search on youtube. They are VERY popular in Europe.
The AMG version was crazy. 0-60 in 4.6 seconds; An SUV too!
Well the Gurkha IS based on the G-Wagen.
OT: As regards to the AMG version, check out the Bowler Wild Cat Video on Youtube
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Old 8th June 2009, 10:38   #44
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I have quite a bit of offroading experience in both the Safari and the Gypsy. On paper the safari has humongous torque, large GC(210mm) and rear LSD. The gypsy which I used to drive had a puny 65 horsepower engine, no diff locks and no LSD.
Yet, it used to go places where the safari can't.
They key is weight.
People keep talking about power to weight ratio, LSD, difflocks etc, etc., but forget a very very important parameter, weight relationship with footpring.
Lower weight means lower pressure, so lesser change of sinking.
At places where even land cruisers will dig in, and require all technological whizardry to get out, gypsy will go on because the 1 ton kerb weight will not allow it to sink in.
However on very steep inclines which offer some grip. the high powered diesels will beat the gypsy hollow.

In the current avatar with crde bolero will be formidable, but the moment the terrain gets too sandy or slushy, it will sink in with opposite wheels spinning.
In such situations either you should have a vehicle so light that it does not sink in, or something wil diff locks like the gurkha so that you have all 4 wheels spinning to get you out.

Another hurdle for Bolero will be the GC, which at 180mm means that it will ground at any slightly tough track.
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Old 8th June 2009, 10:46   #45
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If you are talking OE only, then Gurkha leaves everything behind.
Please elaborate? or is it just the "Diff-Lock" phenomenon?
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