1990 M&M Cj340

[svsantosh]

Arka, Behram,

Sorry for the continued delay in posting pics. I will try to get some pics over the weekend. Meanwhile I had a few questions...

1) The 6 threads on the hub (to hold the 6 bolts of the axle) are nearly worn out. Is it possible to lathe new sleeves/threads into them? I am not too keen on such a job, may well go with a new hub.

2) I noticed a old commander today at a signal stop. I had 6 bolts sticking outside from the hub and 6 nuts held the axle in place. This is REVERSE of my current setup. How is this acheived? I am guessing it is a similar hub, but a reverse bolt/nut design. And this design negates a need for 'nagaraj' cup...!!

3) Arka, when I removed the (left rear)axle from my jeep in the middle of the road I noticed 2 things. (a) The nagaraj cup was not needed...!! because... (b) The axle had a flange welded/joint to it and the check nut on the 'cup' was of no use, except cosmetic. Is this the 'FC' left axle. I think the right side has a functional 'cup' and a divorced flange&axle setup. I will check and confirm.

Edit --- Arka,

'IIRC' Suresh Stephen's 340 has a welded flange/axle setup to negate the 'cup'... Do you advise I weld the right axle/flange to negate this cup setup. Raju mech advised against it for some reason I cant recollect.

[Suresh Stephen]

IRC' Suresh Stephen's 340 has a welded flange/axle setup to negate the 'cup'... Do you advise I weld the right axle/flange to negate this cup setup. Raju mech advised against it for some reason I cant recollect.[/quote]

Dear Santhosh,
I use heat treated axles which has around 35HRC hardness. The Drive flange was relatively"soft" and the mating splines were wearing out. That is the reason I have welded it together.
Suresh

[svsantosh]

Originally Posted by Suresh Stephen

Dear Santhosh,
I use heat treated axles which has around 35HRC hardness. The Drive flange was relatively"soft" and the mating splines were wearing out. That is the reason I have welded it together.
Suresh

Dear Suresh sir, long time

How is your jeep progressing?

Thanks for the tip. But even in my case of OE axle and OE flange do you think a weld is a good idea? Or should be avoided and live with the divorced setup?

[Suresh Stephen]

Originally Posted by svsantosh

Dear Suresh sir, long time

How is your jeep progressing?

Thanks for the tip. But even in my case of OE axle and OE flange do you think a weld is a good idea? Or should be avoided and live with the divorced setup?

Dear Santhosh,
My jeep is getting painted. If an OE axle and OE flange is used, You don't need welding.
Suresh

[svsantosh]

Spike - this is how my jeep's rear hub looked when I bought it (the OE hub, SFRA). Notice the rear wheel hub.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/attach...0-dsc01695.jpg

Now, after I converted to FFRA this is how it looks.



The void used to have this axle...



I think this is the FC left rear axle (flanged end) as said above by Arka.



What is talbros? and the serial# indicating anything?





The axle came out because of sub-standard hub (used one from scrap market) and the threads nearly worn out...





This was the status of the bolts after shearing out of their places..!!



Pratheesh - Hope now I have made it clear; what was and what is now...

--------------
Arka, the splines looks OK (you had asked this point earlier)

[SPIKE ARRESTOR]

Originally Posted by svsantosh

What is talbros? and the serial# indicating anything?

^^Those numbers are Identification marks/vendors indentations.

Santosh, both the bolts shown by you above look different, one has a shoulder and one doesn't. What grades are they (8.8 or 10.9)? The axle shaft you have now seems to be from an old model. Your main problem is bolt shearing or oil/grease leaks?

Spike

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Dear Santosh - please refer my post no 208 on page no 14. I have told you that except for the Bolero design, nothing will work. I once again request you not to use anything else. Bolero design has 8 holes for mounting bolts, 2 holes for dowels and 2 threaded holes for using as a puller to remove the axle shaft out of the axle housing. You have got some 6 hole flanged axle shaft which is not dowelled, so its of no use. Nagraj cup is not part of flanged axle shaft design. Nagraj cup is a sheet metal cup with a hole in its center, used to prevent the axial movement of the axle shaft and it's resultant breakage.

For a CJ340 application, semi floating keyed axle shaft is more than sufficient. I don't understand why you want to deviate from specification.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

For a CJ340 application, semi floating keyed axle shaft is more than sufficient. I don't understand why you want to deviate from specification.

Hello Sir,

The SFRA Keyed Axle shaft is more than sufficient, if we do not take it for frequent off-roads, if we do not install after market LSD and Auto-Lockers.

Besides the inherent safety feature of the wheel not coming off if the axle breaks.

The Bolero FFRA is quite a development, but I personally prefer the older FFRA from the Armada 98 (NGCS) which had two large wheel bearings instead of the one Large and One Small bearing in the Bolero FFRA.

I guess it was a cost cutting measure.

In Chennai We have been using the flanged FC Van Axle instead of the regular Long Axle and it works very well, I'll post the details once I get time to take out the Axles and Do a comparison in the Lengths.

Regards,

Arka

[svsantosh]

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

...both the bolts shown by you above look different, one has a shoulder and one doesn't.

What grades are they (8.8 or 10.9)?

The axle shaft you have now seems to be from an old model.

Your main problem is bolt shearing or oil/grease leaks?

Dear Pratheesh,

1) I forgot to add, both were from different sets. One set sheared and 5 got lost, the CUP was hanging by 1 bolt, the 2nd (bent) bolt is from the 2nd set installed only 3 hours prior to this condition.

2) I have no clue, they cost 5Rs each and looked very sub-standard to me. What grade should they be?

3) Yes, I am 99% sure its the FC vans' like Arka mentioned... I will await his confirmaiton.

4) Well, 1st problem was grease leak, now it appears the root cause is this hub...

-----------------

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

Dear Santosh - please refer my post no 208 on page no 14. I have told you that except for the Bolero design, nothing will work. I once again request you not to use anything else. Bolero design has 8 holes for mounting bolts, 2 holes for dowels and 2 threaded holes for using as a puller to remove the axle shaft out of the axle housing.

Yes Behram Sir, I agree that bolero design (8 bolt) is far better than the 6 bolt design that I have. But, even this 6-bolt design has done its duty on 1000s of CJ500's, similar jeeps that came with the FFRA, right? So assuming such a problem (grease leak because of Hub bolts missing) what would your advise be?

You have got some 6 hole flanged axle shaft which is not dowelled, so its of no use. Nagraj cup is not part of flanged axle shaft design. Nagraj cup is a sheet metal cup with a hole in its center, used to prevent the axial movement of the axle shaft and it's resultant breakage.

What is a dowell/ed? I have the cup on the right side short axle and it is functional.

For a CJ340 application, semi floating keyed axle shaft is more than sufficient. I don't understand why you want to deviate from specification.

Well, to begin with, my main reason was 'serviceability'. As you would agree, constant abuse on OTR's ask for Hub greasing (lots of water fording). I found the OE SFRA's access to the single bearing was too much work for a mechanic/owner. In the current FFRA setup, the wheel/hub can be removed and the 2 bearings and spindle greasing can be done without pulling out the axle. Let me know if my understanding is right?

Originally Posted by ex670c

....but I personally prefer the older FFRA from the Armada 98 (NGCS) which had two large wheel bearings instead of the one Large and One Small bearing in the Bolero FFRA.

In Chennai We have been using the flanged FC Van Axle instead of the regular Long Axle and it works very well, I'll post the details once I get time to take out the Axles and Do a comparison in the Lengths.

Arka, off hand, does my axle appear to be the FC one? Or the armada one?

[Suresh Stephen]

Dear Santhosh,
I had similar problems like you have faced and have spend some time to study it.
Bolt loosening : The bolts take the complete torque to the wheels and since there is a cyclic load, It is natural that over a period of time it will loosen out. Second problem is that there is no alignment provision between the drive flange to the spline end which is inside. These are the problems addressed in the bolero design wherein they have used Dowel pins to locate the flange and to transmitt the Torque. Then the bolts need to do only the clamping job.
Oil leak: It is primarily due to the improper sealing at the differential end and the wheel end.
In your case I suggest the following.
Use two dowels and four bolts for the flange: This will call for clamping the hub and the drive shaft in alignment. You can align in two ways.
1. Make a reference diameter in the outside of the flange WRTO the outer diameter of the splines. Make a reference diameter on the mating hub outside. Use a dummy sleeve and align.
2. Alternatively,This alignment could be done on a lathe using a dial guage with trials.
Clamp 4 bolts in the aligned condition
Bore two dowels (opposite holes) in-situ. Use two hardened pins as dowels. Two 10 mm dowels should suffice.
Grease leak:
Check the Shaft diameter (I think it is 30mm OD)and Ensure the right seals are in place. At least make sure that the wheel side seals are assembled . Guarenteed,It will not leak.
Please Call me if you need further clarity
Regards
Suresh

[IronWolf]

Santosh, I dont know about you but Suresh's and Bheram's post just flew over my tiny brain.

I suggest instead of you doing trial and error with the TN-70 Mech - come over to Raju's and meet up with Suresh sir when he is checking his jeep at Rajus. Suresh can explain to Raju what needs to be done.

[svsantosh]

Behram sir, Suresh Sir,

Thanks a lot, I now understood all you wrote. Just needed to google what is a 'dowel' and now I can relate to it when I used to assemble simple home furniture.

Suresh sir, calling you right away

Danny, it did sound a lot difficult 1st, but now i think I can relate to the above posts...

[svsantosh]

Originally Posted by IronWolf

...come over to Raju's and meet up with Suresh sir when he is checking his jeep at Rajus...

Sigh!! Your wish came true. Not sigh'ng on the wish part, but I had to drive the 1WD jeep so faaar to Raju's. (it was in hosur, 55Kms away!) It is getting lot more than the axle fixed. Getting the GB overhauled due to a grinding noise, removing 1 leaf each from rear set for more comfort, changing to paper type air filter (Pic-up Design), plumbing for a snorkel, changing clutch plate, getting 4 breathers fit (long time pending) forgot what else. 2 weeks at least, will miss my jeep...

...Edit...

Oh, the main reason I went to Raju (over the hosur guy) was becasue the axle issue was explained in detail over phone by Suresh Sir. Only Raju can fix his creation/mod I will post the details once I get back the jeep and make sure the issue is sorted. Pretty simple cause but with disastrous consequences..!!

Edit-2. New axles is from the CJ500. Thanks Arka.

CJ500

The next 2 posts also contain imp inputs...

[svsantosh]

Weekend visit to Raju:

GB opened up
All 3 syncros are worn out
Top gear bearing is worn out
Clutch cover assy is 'LuK', friction plate is MKS (i think) - getting a new LuK plate
Clutch Release bearing gone for a toss

Puja weekend saw no more progress. Will take at least a week more.

[svsantosh]

At last Jeep is back... Got the delivery on day before diwali, too busy to share the experience.

Major points:

1) GB is perfect. No more ratta-krack-rumble-rumble when in 4th cog. One bearing had been bent beyond recognition and 3 syncro gears were bust too.

Note - The 1st 50Kms was not a nice ride back home. Got stuck in 3rd gear and mech assured that i need to run in the rebuilt GB for more Kms to sync the syncros..!! I did not believe him them, but after 3 days and a 100Kms later I can shift out of 3rd smoothly.

2) Snorkel with a paper element type airfilter in place... looks and works 'cool' too. I am loving the new sound of the engine... thanks to cold air intake and the paper type filter - the growl gives nice reason to rev it hard in 3rd.

3) Luk clutch plate in place, retained the old cover assy (was luk too). Lot of improvement in pickup, speed thru gears.

4) Removed 1 leaf each from rear leaf pack. Back to good old smooth drive. The longer shackles needed this mod.

5) Got new rear left axle and hub (from gujri of course). Got rid of the FC van axle, so now the current FFRA setup is from the CJ500 with 2 rods and 2 flanges. Of course the 2 Nagaraj cups are put to use

Total of 11,000 Inr. Expenses as below.

Rear axle, hub - 750
GB Packing kit - 75
Oil seal set - 120
Syncro cone Qty 3 - 480
Clutch plate - 1250
Clutch release bearing - 320
Wheel bearing grease 1Kg - 110
GB Oil 4Liter - 750
Spring leaf reset/removal - 600
Snorkel pipe work, bending, painting, rubber hoses, tinker labor, airfilter, element - 3600
GB Overhaul & 4 wheel hub grease labor - 3000

TOTAL - 11055 INR

Pics of the snorkel work shall come up in a few days.