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Old 6th May 2010, 18:12   #1486
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Originally Posted by bblost View Post
More generic way because that simply means I have code that can be debugged. Now please don't tell me, code must not contain bugs. It will.
This reminds me of a famous joke on Microsoft: Anyways we can have another thread on that!! Just imagine vehicles having BUGS like brakes working once in a while - People blame Toyota for 1 issue

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I think adequate testing would have been done for the same. In normal off road activities(read not extreme off roading), it will hold. Remember, Thar is not for extreme offroaders.
I agree THAR is not for OFF ROADERS It is for the sunday afternoon leisurely drive onto the beach or river bank!!
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Old 6th May 2010, 18:42   #1487
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Getting registered next week - 2010 my first CTC BoleroVLX2WD
BD Sir,
slightly OT but any particular reasons for moving from Scorpio to the Bolero VLX and what changes do you think it needs to have to get better road manners.

Thanks in advance.

Cheers
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Old 6th May 2010, 23:29   #1488
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A Hundred pages...No sign of Mahindra Thar...
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Old 7th May 2010, 00:39   #1489
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The thread should be closed till the vehicle is launched. This is not educational or for improvement in Thar anymore. If a nearby launch date is provided by M&M then its a different thing.

Regards

Pranav
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Old 7th May 2010, 00:41   #1490
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Arka, first you need to understand the real difference between engineers and mechanics before you earn the right to call engineers whatever you want.

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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
I was talking about "Scientific Engineering".
First let's break down the terms as it applies here. Science is basically the study of how things are, it is about properties of materials, their behavior under different kinds of conditions like temperature, velocity, stress, etc. Engineering is about applying that scientific knowledge to design useful items like component of the car or in this case Thar.

What do I know about creating products? I have been creating products for 2 decades, I have co-founded a company that creates products, I make my living through it and employ quite a few people through it. Now don't crib about it saying mine is software, this is automobile, etc. When it comes to product design, the process is very similar, only automobile designers have to jump through lot more regulatory and statutory hoops than I do.

Any real engineering work to create a product is based on scientific knowledge. A mechanical/automobile engineer has to understand force, stress, momentum, properties of materials, etc., before designing any component that goes into the automobile. Trust me, some of the very competent guys who design car are not even interested in cars. They don't have to be. I have a close friend who has designed parts for cars of GM and Ford in Detroit, but he still drives his old Indica since 7-8 years. He is not at all interested in cars. Yet, he can design a FFRA better than any expert mechanic. You just have to tell him the intended usage or the abuse it needs to take. This is how real engineering happens.

However, there is another category of product creators. These are people who build a product based on empirical knowledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_empirical_knowledge

Emperical knowledge come from observation only. You don't know why or have any idea of why reaction A follows situation B but you have seen it happen so many times that you KNOW that is what is going to happen.
People knew that things fell down long before there was a theory of gravitation. Such knowledge was emperical. Emperical knowledge not only comes from observation but also by testing.
People who build products out of empirical knowledge are not engineers. They are artisans. When a mechanic builds a Jeep, he put it together by using his lifelong observation of how an automobile works. He has no scientific knowledge of why it works the way it works. If his design fails, he has no understanding of why it failed. Generally, the artisans over-design (some call it overengineer, but I feel it is a wrong term) to be on the safer side. If 4mm plate will do, they will make it 6mm just to be sure. An engineer on the other hand can exactly calculate the thickness required for the plate, and then will run 100s of computer simulation to test the designed plate width, and then can even do real-time destructive test to confirm the failure point.

To give you an example, about 100 years back when first skyscrapers were being built, the engineers then didn't have enough scientific knowledge to exactly calculate the stress induced by the massive self weight of the structure, stress induced by the wind, etc. Therefore they decided to take a leaf out of artisan's rulebook, and built the skyscrapers with a load factor of 8-10 times. It drastically increased the construction cost, but they didn't have any choice. However, a few decades later, all that changed thanks to number crunching powers of computers. When they built the Twin Towers of the World Trade center, they could exactly calculate the required strength for the structure and gave lot less load factor, may be within 2 times. That is why it collapsed when subjected to extreme stress of jet fuel burning its core structure, it was not designed for that. The artisan over-designed building with 8-10 load factor could have easily survived that attack. That doesn't mean artisans are better designers than engineers.

So far we discussed the difference between the product creators. Now let's consider the product design process, for a car or a Jeep.

Real engineering is a very expensive affair, it needs highly qualified professionals doing R&D for years before a new car is created. That means this activity can be taken up only by a major car manufacturer. Meanwhile the mechanic built car/Jeep can be created in any street-side workshop on a small budget.

How do they start-off or kick-off a design project?

Artisan (mechanic): A customer asks for a Jeep with X, Y, Z modifications. He may even bring in the base Jeep from army auction or wherever in whatever shape. The mechanic will make an estimate of cost and time, and if the customer agrees, the work will start. Since the mechanic has done this many times, he will follow his normal building process. If the modification involves some unfamiliar things, then he might try to do some innovation based on his practical knowledge. He has no regulatory and statutory rules to follow, except for some rules of thumb of his craft.

R&D Engineer: For a R&D Engineer, the customer happens to be the marketing department. The concept of a product is generally developed by the marketing people based on market survey and their understanding of demand and supply of a product in a market. This is very complex analysis, and involves huge gamble of very high stakes. What segment of the market should they address, urban, rural, men, women, youths, kids, senior citizens, corporate, individuals, tourists, etc. How should they position themselves in the chosen segment, premium product, VFM product, niche product, el-cheapo product, etc. After massive brain-storming, they finally pick a segment and their positioning, and then decide on how to target them, what vehicle can be sold to them. This is just one example of how it is done. They could do it in other ways too. They could decide the vehicle first and then wonder about whom to target. There are no hard and fast rule about that.

Next they will start making forecasts on how much they can sell at what cost. They make these forecast based on the demand/supply curves for that market. This is where they will start involving people from departments like R&D, production, accounts, delivery, etc. The R&D guys tell what is possible and what is not possible. Production guys will tell how much effort it takes to manufacture and how much they can manufacture. The accounts guys will tell how much it will cost to make them, etc, etc. For example, the R&D guy may be able to create a fantastic product, which the production guy can manufacture 500 a month, and the accountant calculates the unit cost to be 8L. Meanwhile the marketing guy is hoping to sell 1000 per month for 7L price, with a per unit profit of 2L. His demand curves says that only 100 units will be sold at 10L price (8L unit cost + 2L profit), then what is he going to do with remaining 400 units per month.

So he needs a 5L unit cost that can be manufactured at the rate of 1000 per month. So he will tell the R&D guy to reduce the cost by lowering the specifications and by using common parts across the products. That will also reduce production cost and time due to economy of scale. The marketing department has the absolute veto power over all other departments. That means Behram can't put a FFRA or Diff lock into Thar unless the demand curve on the excel sheet agrees with the extra cost. Marketing guys will give a broad outline of the product along with segment/positioning info and expect it to be done within a given unit cost. It is up to the R&D engineer to design the best possible combo keeping all the parameters to be satisfied. In addition to this, the R&D engineer is also expected to adhere to CMVR regulations. One can short change the end customer, but one can't short-change the CMVR rules.

Let's imagine a hypothetical conversation:

Behram: Let's put FFRA on Thar, it will cost so much extra.
Marketing boss: I don't know what FFRA stands for, is it necessary for majority of the customers we are targeting?
Behram: Umm, no. About 1% of the Thar customers would badly need it, it won't matter for the rest, they can manage with SFRA at cheaper cost.
Marketing boss: Ok, then forget those 1% chaps, let's go with SFRA. One less par number to deal with.

This is how a product is developed in a company. Behram or Spike surely know the advantage of FFRA. It is the marketing department that decides SFRA is good enough for the segment they are targeting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
I have every right to call engineers what I want; with in good reason as I have stated in my previous post.
Therefore, you really have no cause to call engineers whatever you want, they certainly don't deserve the bricks and rotten eggs you have been throwing at them.

However, next time you meet Arif, don't hold back.
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Old 7th May 2010, 00:50   #1491
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could some one from MM introduce these smart Marketing Dept to us end users?

i always wondered how a well concieved 4WD vehicle with 100 pages of SERIOUS discussion never gets a launch date.

the man in charge of the THAR is not even the decision maker!

Last edited by Technocrat : 7th May 2010 at 09:50. Reason: Please avoid quoting an entire long post specially when its on same page, thanks
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Old 7th May 2010, 07:21   #1492
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Let's imagine a hypothetical conversation:

Behram: Let's put FFRA on Thar, it will cost so much extra.
Marketing boss: I don't know what FFRA stands for, is it necessary for majority of the customers we are targeting?
Behram: Umm, no. About 1% of the Thar customers would badly need it, it won't matter for the rest, they can manage with SFRA at cheaper cost.
Marketing boss: Ok, then forget those 1% chaps, let's go with SFRA. One less par number to deal with.

This is how a product is developed in a company. Behram or Spike surely know the advantage of FFRA. It is the marketing department that decides SFRA is good enough for the segment they are targeting.

The R&D team should tell mktg about the advantages of FFRA vs SFRA and explain the safety aspect and the niche segment they target the THAR.

Cost is the sole aim if you are building a "nano" kind of vehicle NOT THAR!!

AND WHAT SEGMENT IS THAR's TARGET? SOMEBODY PLEASE TELL ME

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Originally Posted by Muzungu View Post
the man in charge of the THAR is not even the decision maker!
Yeah, if what hypothetically said above is true then
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Old 7th May 2010, 08:23   #1493
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Originally Posted by headers View Post
I agree THAR is not for OFF ROADERS It is for the sunday afternoon leisurely drive onto the beach or river bank!!
Well that is offroading according to many people. Different places in the world have different kinds of off-roading. In the gulf they climb 200 meter dunes. It cannot be done with an old rebuild jeep. By your logic, all jeeps participating in OTRs are not for OFF Roaders, but for weekend driving in some quarry, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post
The R&D team should tell mktg about the advantages of FFRA vs SFRA and explain the safety aspect and the niche segment they target the THAR.

Cost is the sole aim if you are building a "nano" kind of vehicle NOT THAR!!

AND WHAT SEGMENT IS THAR's TARGET? SOMEBODY PLEASE TELL ME



Yeah, if what hypothetically said above is true then
Niche segment for Thar is off roaders. 99% of offroaders are going to be happy with Thar. They will not make a dent in their profits to please 2 people. The world is a very big place. There are lots of off roaders in this world. There are lots of type of off road vehicles in this world. Infact, apart from jeep there are lots of off road vehicles in India too. Just because 2 or 3 people demand that they want something, they won't get something. It won't matter if they demand as a request, or demand by calling names. Its a big big world and clearly it seems at for a few people Thar is not the answer. Too bad. But for the 99%, it will do just fine.
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Old 7th May 2010, 08:52   #1494
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Dear Sharath and Tanveer - thank you.

Dear Deepak - the "bigger" tyre size was 245/75R16LT (LT means light truck). The learning that I got driving those 800 kms is simply amazing. Actually, looking back now, testing the big tyres was also not required. Just looking at the tyres was enough. But I still tested to prove my apprehensions to myself. However, these tyres will serve me well on ground clearance, so they will be good for actual OTRs where alternate properties are required. Now I will test with the smaller size tyres.

I have the best job in the world.. I am enjoying myself and I am learning, learning, learning..

Dear all - launch date is not in my operational area, but it will be launched for sure.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

Quote - "BUILD A LEARNING ORGANIZATION" - Jack welch.

Last edited by DHABHAR.BEHRAM : 7th May 2010 at 08:53. Reason: add info
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Old 7th May 2010, 09:26   #1495
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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Arka, first you need to understand the real difference between engineers and mechanics before you earn the right to call engineers whatever you want.


However, next time you meet Arif, don't hold back.
Wow...Thanks Samurai. What all we can learn from a forum like this. The offroad enthusiast are not happy with the outcome of Thar's final spec. But as many people pointed out earlier, finally it is the commercial department decides what sells at what price and they make compromise here and there.

But look at the other side. Many of us have learned SFRA, FFRA and so on. Thanks to all the offroad enthusiast here.
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Old 7th May 2010, 09:26   #1496
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Originally Posted by headers View Post
The R&D team should tell mktg about the advantages of FFRA vs SFRA and explain the safety aspect and the niche segment they target the THAR.
And what difference would it make? Does it push the demand curve down by couple of notches? That can happen only if the majority of end users are educated about safety. Finally it is economics, why was Maruti still selling dangerous tin cans like 800 and Omni along with relatively sturdy & safer Swift and SX4? Simply because demand curve shows them that majority wants cheap cars rather than safe cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post
Cost is the sole aim if you are building a "nano" kind of vehicle NOT THAR!!

AND WHAT SEGMENT IS THAR's TARGET? SOMEBODY PLEASE TELL ME
Surely not Jeep Thrills crowd. Most JT crowd will not buy a 7L Thar, they will be happy with the old Jeeps or Gypsies they have built over years. So why should Mahindra target you? How safe is a Jeep or Gypsy? How many people really think offroaders are very safety conscious? Some of my relatives think I am suicidal to drive a Jeep on road, let alone offroad.


Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post
Yeah, if what hypothetically said above is true then
The truth is lot worse, I gave you a very high level concept of what really happens. I have been in that R&D shoes in large companies. While we passionately make a case to the marketing folks on what should really go into the product, we could plainly see what they were thinking. They were thinking which asylum these R&D chaps are hired from, and how fast they can run out of there. And this was happening in AT&T Bell Labs, the company that churned out some of the most wonderful software products of the 20th century.
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Old 7th May 2010, 09:29   #1497
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You know Mr Behram, even after all these pages and many meandering and sometimes irrelevant posts from you, you still have not given us a convincing enough reply as to why the That has SFRA and not FFRA. May we have one convincing reply to that.
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Old 7th May 2010, 09:39   #1498
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Dear DB Sir,

I am still awaiting your reply to Post #1469 & #1470.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 7th May 2010, 09:52   #1499
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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Arka, first you need to understand the real difference between engineers and mechanics before you earn the right to call engineers whatever you want.

First let's break down the terms as it applies here. Science is basically the study of how things are, it is about properties of materials, their behavior under different kinds of conditions like temperature, velocity, stress, etc. Engineering is about applying that scientific knowledge to design useful items like component of the car or in this case Thar.

What do I know about creating products? I have been creating products for 2 decades, I have co-founded a company that creates products, I make my living through it and employ quite a few people through it. Now don't crib about it saying mine is software, this is automobile, etc. When it comes to product design, the process is very similar, only automobile designers have to jump through lot more regulatory and statutory hoops than I do.

Any real engineering work to create a product is based on scientific knowledge. A mechanical/automobile engineer has to understand force, stress, momentum, properties of materials, etc., before designing any component that goes into the automobile. Trust me, some of the very competent guys who design car are not even interested in cars. They don't have to be. I have a close friend who has designed parts for cars of GM and Ford in Detroit, but he still drives his old Indica since 7-8 years. He is not at all interested in cars. Yet, he can design a FFRA better than any expert mechanic. You just have to tell him the intended usage or the abuse it needs to take. This is how real engineering happens.

However, there is another category of product creators. These are people who build a product based on empirical knowledge.

People who build products out of empirical knowledge are not engineers. They are artisans. When a mechanic builds a Jeep, he put it together by using his lifelong observation of how an automobile works. He has no scientific knowledge of why it works the way it works. If his design fails, he has no understanding of why it failed. Generally, the artisans over-design (some call it overengineer, but I feel it is a wrong term) to be on the safer side. If 4mm plate will do, they will make it 6mm just to be sure. An engineer on the other hand can exactly calculate the thickness required for the plate, and then will run 100s of computer simulation to test the designed plate width, and then can even do real-time destructive test to confirm the failure point.

Therefore, you really have no cause to call engineers whatever you want, they certainly don't deserve the bricks and rotten eggs you have been throwing at them.

However, next time you meet Arif, don't hold back.
Hi Sharath,

Thanks for your TEXTBOOK answer.

Have you rebuilt or modified your JEEP? Yes/No

What are the mods? Why do you need to mod them, you effectively have become a JEEP mechanic.

What makes you think you have the knowledge and Know How to execute the mods, yet you go ahead with it.

Why did DB fit and XD3P for GTO's JEEP, we guys suggested it at least a year and a half before.

Surely I don't recall any M&M SWB JEEP fitted with an OEM XD3P.

Till then spare me the software/hardware/how M&M works & what an Engineer is.

And sitting in Office and writing code is way different from building a vehicle, please don't even compare, and justify process.

Science is Empirical, and cannot be justified by economics.

Empirical - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Give me a scientific answer for all the questions I have raised, maybe you don't understand them, and that is why you go into economics.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 7th May 2010, 10:04   #1500
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May I suggest a solution to this impasse?

Buy a Thar and use it stock for three years enjoying the car as a regular machine with some offroad thrown in.

Then when the new car novelty has worn off and you know it won't fetch you half of what you have paid for it then tear out the front IFS, steering box and rear diff and install leaf suspension with rigid axle, FFRA and the steering box of choice.

Now if you cannot bring yourself to paying 7 lacs for a new Thar wait for four years and you will have used Thars for 2.5-3 lacs. Have fun modifying those.

If you can't wait buy a Thar brand new and immediately do the mods

Guys you have the options, its not all that bad.
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