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Old 7th May 2010, 10:19   #1501
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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Speaking of practical mechanics, not just in the case of jeeps, but in case of cars also after market tuners can better than performance of the stock car by a large margin.
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The day a "Practical Mechanic" builds such a jeep, I will bow to thee, but today I stand on the side of MM.
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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Arka, first you need to understand the real difference between engineers and mechanics before you earn the right to call engineers whatever you want.
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Therefore, you really have no cause to call engineers whatever you want, they certainly don't deserve the bricks and rotten eggs you have been throwing at them.

However, next time you meet Arif, don't hold back.
I think we must stop this discussion here as this seems to go nowhere.

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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Thanks for your TEXTBOOK answer.
And sitting in Office and writing code is way different from building a vehicle, please don't even compare, and justify process.
--------------
Give me a scientific answer for all the questions I have raised, maybe you don't understand them, and that is why you go into economics.
Sharath, Tanveer, even after all good explanations you get these^^.

Spike

P.S. I think Arif will be in trouble now.
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Old 7th May 2010, 10:34   #1502
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Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Hi Arka,

As you have raised this question I can't resist from answering. This is no way means I doubt the credibility or integrity of anyone over here. Please do not bring your creativity/wild imaginations into picture. This is a straight forward simple question.

What do you think how many people (leave forum members for time being) who own a Jeep also understand a Jeep.

P.S. Again, no offence meant )
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Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
I think we must stop this discussion here as this seems to go nowhere.


Sharath, Tanveer, even after all good explanations you get these^^.
Hi Spike,

80% of the JEEP owners understand their vehicle.

We have all seen the JEEP fever grow all over the country and on TeamBHP, surprisingly only you and DB Sir don't have a JEEP.

I have asked enough of technical questions which are pretty straight forward, I don't think I have caught you guys with your pants down, so why don't you and DB Sir answer the few questions, related to the mechanical components on the Thar and some observation on M&M Vehicles. (Post#1469/70)

Regards,

Arka

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
For example, if using a slightly inferior tech can save 5000rs/per vehicle, economics will always win.
The question which the marketing and product team will ask is that by compromising on a certain component, what is the impact on market share.
If the impact on market share is offset by cost saved, the cheaper component will find its way into the product.
Scientifically, it may be better to use the components you listed, but economically(which is a cascading effect) the other component is a better fit.
I am not tuned to the 4x4 world, but let me present you a real world case.

The Tata 1.4 liter DICOR engine which found its way in the Indigo can easily output 90bhp, and stay well within tolerance limits for the engine.
However, that would involve using a beefier gearbox for the indigo.
Then 2 options arise
1. Use a beefier gbox with 90bhp engine, and sell it for higher cost
2. Use same gearbox, detune engine to 70bhp and save lots of money with economies of scale.

The buyer can go to any aftermarket ECU piggyback chip maker, and get 90bhp from the engine. In 99% of the cases, in normal driving, it will not stress the gearbox. But for a mfr, even if in 1% of the cases it results in premature gbox failure, mfr is going to let the higher bhp option go.
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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Regarding SFRA, sure semi floating will give more stress, but for 99% of the users it will be well within tolerance limits. Again the argument of jack of all trades.
Hi TSK,

You have stated that if the mfrs is likely to face 1% Failure (Gearbox) with a High BHP option, they will not opt for Higher BHP.

Why doesnot M&M apply that to their Rear Axles. If 1% of SFRA is likely to Fail why not go in for FFRA.

Rear Axle Failure will be more dramatic compared to the gearbox failure.

Is it a design oversight or its just Life is Cheap.

Regards,

Arka

Last edited by Jaggu : 7th May 2010 at 10:46. Reason: Back to back posts, please use Multi (Quote +) instead, Thanks
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Old 7th May 2010, 11:03   #1503
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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Sharath,

Thanks for your TEXTBOOK answer.
If you think that was a textbook answer, please show me the textbook that describes such reality. What I have explained is real world scenario that happens inside every corporate. I have seen in India as well as USA. I doubt it is different in any other country.

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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Have you rebuilt or modified your JEEP? Yes/No

What are the mods? Why do you need to mod them, you effectively have become a JEEP mechanic.
Yes, I have constantly done it on an incremental basis. But that is not engineering, but artisan work by various mechanics.

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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Till then spare me the software/hardware/how M&M works & what an Engineer is.

Give me a scientific answer for all the questions I have raised, maybe you don't understand them, and that is why you go into economics.
I don't think there is anybody left here who doesn't understand FFRA/IFS and the pros and cons. Not after so many months of repetitive debate. You assume Behram doesn't know engineering simply because he didn't plonk in FFRA in Thar. What kind of logic is that?

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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
And sitting in Office and writing code is way different from building a vehicle, please don't even compare, and justify process.
You don't know how software products are built. After all, few software companies in India build products. Coding is just one aspect of building a product. Please don't start making judgement on my professional capabilities without knowing what I have done in professional life. I have never questioned yours, so let's keep it clean.

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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Science is Empirical, and cannot be justified by economics.
We are not talking science here, but engineering. And product engineering is always bound by economic reality. Until and unless you can understand that, why FFRA is out and IFS is in, will remain a mystery for you forever.
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Old 7th May 2010, 11:11   #1504
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Lets forget about this 1% crowd who are called as OFF-ROADERS.
There are places called as Chikmagalur, Coorg in karnataka. Let M&M guys visit these places and stay there for just two days to understand what a JEEP is and whether they can sell their THAR to them. The JEEPs are bread and butter for them. mind you a car is a second vehicle for them. Ok now dont think driving in estate is nothing in front of what JT does. the JEEPs are attached with the trailers and it will be loaded with atleast 2tons, yes im not exaggerating. and the workers will also be ferried back with the heavy trailer. all the women are into the JEEP and men are on the loaded trailer. head count will be like 15. i have seen this in estates where the JEEP used to do steep climbs with all those load in it. now imagine a axle break.

Now do not think these two places can be ignored as they are just two places in karnataka state. Now these are the ONLY places where JEEPS are still running and still they dont have a replacement for their 540s. JEEPs are parked in front of every house. So we can get an old JEEP there? NO, they dont sell it usually to outsiders as they have to buy it back during the coffee season.

And people have figured out the difference between a 540 and a 550, as 540 was made by artisans and 550 was made by engineers. They dont use 550 for their core work, they always use 540. 550 is preferred for only commuting purpose.

Last edited by star_aqua : 7th May 2010 at 11:23.
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Old 7th May 2010, 11:16   #1505
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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Spike,

80% of the JEEP owners understand their vehicle.

We have all seen the JEEP fever grow all over the country and on TeamBHP, surprisingly only you and DB Sir don't have a JEEP.

I have asked enough of technical questions which are pretty straight forward, I don't think I have caught you guys with your pants down, so why don't you and DB Sir answer the few questions, related to the mechanical components on the Thar and some observation on M&M Vehicles. (Post#1469/70)

Regards,

Arka
Hi Arka,

Yes I agree I don't have a Jeep, not because I don't want one, I cannot afford one now due to financial reasons. But that does not mean I do not know Jeeps, let others in the forum say I do not know Jeeps and I will stop posting in the 4x4 forum.

There are several things which I cannot disclose in a public forum due to obvious reasons.

Spike

Last edited by Samurai : 7th May 2010 at 11:23. Reason: Let's not pour more ghee to this fire...
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Old 7th May 2010, 11:28   #1506
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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
surprisingly only you and DB Sir don't have a JEEP.
did you read DBs post? He mentioned the countless vehicles he has owned by proxy. RC book in MMs name. When you are a product design head, you get these vehicles from MFR for testing. The engineers do not buy the vehicle and test the vehicle. I am sure both SPIKE and DB have been driving a lot of jeeps and weighing a pros and cons. Just because the jeep they drive does not have their name in RC book, does not mean they do not drive jeeps
Quote:
Hi TSK,

You have stated that if the mfrs is likely to face 1% Failure (Gearbox) with a High BHP option, they will not opt for Higher BHP.

Why doesnot M&M apply that to their Rear Axles. If 1% of SFRA is likely to Fail why not go in for FFRA.

Rear Axle Failure will be more dramatic compared to the gearbox failure.

Is it a design oversight or its just Life is Cheap.

Regards,

Arka
When I said 1% failure, it means 1% failure in normal usage or 1% failure in extreme usage.
Thar is not even out. 1% numbers are speculation. Remember its a 7L lifestyle vehicle. Jeep owners on estates will still buy a 1L jeep and customize it for another 1L.
A brand new offroader with modern engine and meeting all safety regulations will cost 6-7L atleast, and that takes it to a different level. Target audience for a 3L net vehicle and a 7L net vehicle is totally different.
They won't pay 10,000 extra for Solid axle and the likes. The guys spending 1L on army disposal and 1L on restoring it will pay 1L extra to customize it.

anyways, the vehicle is still not out, it will be launched soon. Lets not jump to conclusion that it will fail or whether it won't fail.
Proof is in the pudding, and what I saw from the Mumbai OTR threads(thar side by side with the others), its a very capable vehicle in its stock form.

Remember, when a mfr comes with a new vehicle, driving on rocky quarries is not the target goal.
The vehicle should be able to
1. sustain high speeds on expressways while offering comfort to people driving
2. Insulated from the elements like low temperatures and extreme heat
3. Have decent handling on tarmac.
4. Be able to sustain speeds on sandy trails.

Basically an all rounder. None of the "mechanic" jeeps are all rounders. They will do very well in a rocky backyard, but fail everywhere else. Only vehicle which is an all rounder and on sale is the Gurkha(but thats another debate). Thar intends to change that, and give people looking for an all rounder an option.
An off road capable vehicle which can very well work as a city and highway car and be the only vehicle.
Most of the jeep owners can't even dream of their mechanic built jeeps as their only vehicle, and most of the jeep owners have a second vehicle to fulfill the highway driving need.
If a Jeep owner wants to go to Ladakh in a mechanic built diesel jeep, barring a few cases he will take his car.
Thar will give them a chance to have one vehicle for use in all.

Speaking of TPC, its like a "track event". A stock car will never do as well as a custom built car on the track. It will provide a good platform, which will do 95% of the things in stock form. If you want to to extra 5% you need to mod it.

FOr example if you drive on sand trains in Rajasthan, you will buy sandgrips and ditch the stock tires because you never go on tarmac.
If you constantly drive in slush, you will fit MT.

A stock mfr vehicle will never be a specialist vehicle, it has to do all.
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Old 7th May 2010, 11:35   #1507
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Originally Posted by star_aqua View Post
Lets forget about this 1% crowd who are called as OFF-ROADERS.
There are places called as Chikmagalur, Coorg in karnataka. Let M&M guys visit these places and stay there for just two days to understand what a JEEP is and whether they can sell their THAR to them. The JEEPs are bread and butter for them. mind you a car is a second vehicle for them. Ok now dont think driving in estate is nothing in front of what JT does. the JEEPs are attached with the trailers and it will be loaded with atleast 2tons, yes im not exaggerating. and the workers will also be ferried back with the heavy trailer. all the women are into the JEEP and men are on the loaded trailer. head count will be like 15. i have seen this in estates where the JEEP used to do steep climbs with all those load in it. now imagine a axle break.
Times are changing Vijay. I am a frequent visitor to Coorg and also one time resident. I have friends who are planters, and I have been hearing things.

1) The estates trails are getting more car friendly since planters too like their conveniences. Last Coorg OTR one local complained that is it becoming difficult to find challenging offroad trails, planters are making them SUV friendly.

2) Estate workers don't want to sit in trailers anymore, they are demanding at least a Bolero or Gama for pick and drop.

3) Regarding load carrying, Bolero Pickups do come FFRA, so that is taken care of. I don't think anybody will buy CRDe powered Thar to do that work.

People are moving with time.
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Old 7th May 2010, 11:43   #1508
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Samurai, very well-written post, can be taken as a benchmark as to how one can discuss and explain something properly on a forum. If only more people could follow the same approach.
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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
...Different places in the world have different kinds of off-roading. In the gulf they climb 200 meter dunes. It cannot be done with an old rebuild jeep...
Spot on Tanveer. Can't agree more. And i doubt whether you ever get to see a jeep, built by mechanics and fulfilling all the four conditions you mentioned!
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Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
....But that does not mean I do not know Jeeps, let others in the forum say I do not know Jeeps and I will stop posting in the 4x4 forum.
................There are several things which I cannot disclose in a public forum due to obvious reasons.
Hey Spike,we have seen how technical you can be when it comes to jeeps. Having more people like you is always a benefit for learners like us. And offcourse you can share information only upto a certain extent and just not disclose anything or everything. That is very well understood along with the fact that BD can push the things upto a certain extent beyond which its not in his hands.
-regards,
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Old 7th May 2010, 11:49   #1509
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Spot on Tanveer. Can't agree more. And i doubt whether you ever get to see a jeep, built by mechanics and fulfilling all the four conditions you mentioned!
Funny you say that! As a matter of fact, your jeep is one which I think can come the closest. Though its not up there with the Thar, but from all the jeeps I have seen and heard of in NCR, your is probably the only one which can do Himalayan driving with confidence.
but if I remember correctly, your jeep was not exactly built by "mechanics".

but you are right, all the 4 factors which I mentioned is only possible in the jack of all trades, anywhere in the world.
for example, in the US many people are into extreme offroading, and they tie a trailer to their SUV and take their custom built offroad machines to the offroading site as those machines are not fit enough for the highway speeds in the west(70-80mph).
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Old 7th May 2010, 12:51   #1510
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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear Sharath and Tanveer - thank you.

Dear Deepak - the "bigger" tyre size was 245/75R16LT (LT means light truck). The learning that I got driving those 800 kms is simply amazing. Actually, looking back now, testing the big tyres was also not required. Just looking at the tyres was enough. But I still tested to prove my apprehensions to myself. However, these tyres will serve me well on ground clearance, so they will be good for actual OTRs where alternate properties are required. Now I will test with the smaller size tyres.

I have the best job in the world.. I am enjoying myself and I am learning, learning, learning..

Dear all - launch date is not in my operational area, but it will be launched for sure.
Some of us point flaws in a vehicle only for some manufacturers to refine and better it. Why dont we agree to some of your points - because we do NOT do extensive testing like you get to do.

Now having tested this - can you please share the results. We need numbers sir.

If we are talking generics then sorry i posted on this thread!


I see this thread getting nowhere wrt the THAR and its launch.

@DB SIR: WHy not try front smaller tyres and rear BIGGER tyres. You would have amazing steering response and...well


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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
majority of end users are educated about safety.
Sir, You have stated a lot about your experience - Does that mean the other person knows nothing?

A COMPROMISE ON SAFETY cannot be neglected whether it be JT crowd or M800 crowd or THAR crowd. Life is NOT cheap.

Having been abroad and worked there, YOU should know this better


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Originally Posted by DKG View Post

Now if you cannot bring yourself to paying 7 lacs for a new Thar wait for four years and you will have used Thars for 2.5-3 lacs. Have fun modifying those.
I tend to agree with you on this one, but will the THAR sell 1000 units a month?


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Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Sharath, Tanveer, even after all good explanations you get these^^.
No answer to you spike mate!!


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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post

Is it a design oversight or its just Life is Cheap.
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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
You assume Behram doesn't know engineering simply because he didn't plonk in FFRA in Thar. What kind of logic is that?
Sir, some of us wanted BD sir to explain why SFRA is put in the THAR and NOT FFRA when FFRA is available off the shelf at M&M.

In s/w lingo, when a API is available, why use another more resource intensive one that would work, but a little slower ?.. get the drift?


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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Speaking of TPC, its like a "track event". A stock car will never do as well as a custom built car on the track. It will provide a good platform, which will do 95% of the things in stock form. If you want to to extra 5% you need to mod it.
Guess you are missing the point TSK - We are on different frequencies.

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Times are changing Vijay. ..

People are moving with time.
CORRECT - people are moving with time - Now why should unsafe vehicles be sold?
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Old 7th May 2010, 12:58   #1511
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Dear All,

I would also like to raise a point. Samurai's diatribe about how engineering actually works is enlightening, but also disheartening. His example of his friend designing FFRA while being least interested in cars is more 'number-crunching' and less 'engineering'. The term engineer supposedly comes from the Latin, French, German term meaning ingenius and implying ingenuity.

IMHO a mechanic adapting a part or making up something from scratch to fulfill a requirement holds more 'ingenuity' than someone optimising a design using CAD to optimise production and cost. Of course this is an important part of designing and manufacturing but is it 'engineering'?

True engineering requires passion, true engineering requires 'empirical knowledge', true engineering requires experience, true engineering requires interest, true engineering requires RESPONSIBILITY.
No matter what the marketing guys and accountants are harping about, basic safety measures have to be insisted and ensured. The designing of a vehicle may require a large number of compromises, but then there are some things you just can't compromise on.
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Old 7th May 2010, 13:33   #1512
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I am not too passionate about the Thar one way or the other for the simple reason that it has been strongly hinted that there will be more coming out of M&M in the near future than just the Thar.

Am I the only one who has this impression?
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Old 7th May 2010, 13:57   #1513
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Funny you say that! As a matter of fact, your jeep is one which I think can come the closest. Though its not up there with the Thar, but from all the jeeps I have seen and heard of in NCR, your is probably the only one which can do Himalayan driving with confidence.
Thanks for the appreciation and that was the basic aim of the rebuild. Personally i would like my jeep to fulfill #4 taking care of # 3. And if i could afford, i would have surely gone for a product like Thar for my kind of usage...a capable enough brand new jeep backed up by company service centers & warranty.
Quote:
..but if I remember correctly, your jeep was not exactly built by "mechanics"...
well yeah i am fortunate in that matter and have always gone for things which are straight -fit with no 'customization' on mechanical parts.
Quote:
...for example, in the US many people are into extreme offroading, and they tie a trailer to their SUV and take their custom built offroad machines to the offroading site....
Thats the ideal point, having separate vehicles for off & on road. And unless the market share for the 1st type is good enough, best you can expect as a new product is something like Thar.
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Old 7th May 2010, 14:14   #1514
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I am not too passionate about the Thar one way or the other for the simple reason that it has been strongly hinted that there will be more coming out of M&M in the near future than just the Thar.

Am I the only one who has this impression?
Dan,
I am with you on this.

Regards,
Krishna.
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Old 7th May 2010, 14:41   #1515
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I am not too passionate about the Thar one way or the other for the simple reason that it has been strongly hinted that there will be more coming out of M&M in the near future than just the Thar.
Am I the only one who has this impression?
The other thread on COE does hint something in this direction. Probably 4wd versions of the Xylo & then Storm may be the next sets of offerings and may be some more surprises thereafter. But then considering the time going to be taken for Thar to finally hit the Indian showrooms, you really need patience to expect the subsequent 'goodies'.
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