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Old 11th January 2010, 09:57   #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR View Post
And a "supplementary" question to Behramji on that. Why is it that we get same vehicle with 5 and 6 seater configurations? Is there a taxation element to it? (Excise, vehicle classification, etc?)
BaCkSeAtDrIVeR,
The 7 seater is to be exempted and to avoid the yellow commercial registration plate by the CMVR.
It has to roll out not less than 7 seater from the factory for this reason, custom seat configuration can be done by the respective owners later.
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Old 11th January 2010, 10:44   #302
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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear all - let me begin by introducing myself before I comment on one of my pet projects, Thar. Here I will also tell you how the germ of an idea called "Thar" got born.

Gentlemen, so that's the Thar for you - THE THAR IS ESSENTIALLY A SCORPIO IN DISGUISE. IT WILL DRIVE LIKE A SCORPIO, SOUND LIKE A SCORPIO AND HANDLE LIKE A SCORPIO. IT IS LIGHTER THAN A SCORPIO. IT WILL GIVE YOU EXCELLENT HIGHWAY CRUISEABILITY TO COVER THOSE HUGE DISTANCES THAT YOU NEED TO TRAVEL ON ROAD TO REACH YOUR OFF ROAD DESTINATIONS AND ALSO PROVIDE YOU MORE THAN ENOUGH GRUNT TO ENJOY YOUR OFFROAD ADVENTURES WITH EXCELLENT OFFROAD ABILITY. I TOOK THIS ROUTE AS IT OFFERS THE BEST OF BOTH WORLDS.
Thar is scorpio in disguise, drives like a scorpio, sounds like a scorpio and handles like a scorpio...

...priced like a scorpio? (or cheaper scorpio in disguise)
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Old 11th January 2010, 10:46   #303
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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post

I work as General Manager (Vehicle Development) in the Research & Development Centre of the Automotive Sector of Mahindra & Mahindra Ltd in Nasik. I would like to say very clearly that I am extremely fortunate and proud to be part of one big M&M family. ..................... Therefore, it is my Thar team that has delivered the Thar, not me, all congratulations due to them.


I am also an avid 4*4 enthusiast........

I was quietly waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, till I got the driveline I wanted. I wanted at least 100 BHP and at least 25 kgm with vehicle dynamics to suit it.
Gentlemen, so that's the Thar for you - THE THAR IS ESSENTIALLY A SCORPIO IN DISGUISE. ....

You will note that I started the thread in December 08 because I wanted all of you to connect so that you would actually experience M&M's commitment towards "CUSTOMER CENTRICITY" firsthand. I am very thankful to you all for your excellent responses.

Please continue to give your comments as always........

Behram Dhabhar

Behram sir,
You need no introduction, almost every one here in 4x4 thread knows you.
Being a part of this big Mahindra family once upon a time i know what are you saying. It has its flaws but still the best Indian 4x4 company.

Guys look the way Mahindra has changed and it has placed right people at right places and is doing a good home work before launching a vehicle. Tell me which other Indian company has done it interms of addressing a 4x4 market which is very small?

Companies like TATA and Toyota have still not announced any plans for 4x4 enthusiasts. All they mean is pure business. Force gave a leading attempt but didnt take off quite well. Maruti has been upgrading engines of Gypsy but will be interesting to see what it does for BSiv requirements. Other than power train there has not been a single change on the vehicle! It is alive for us courtesy army.

For generations M&M had 4x4's for us. May be they discontinued Classic , the ultimate and true blue 4x4, but still they had vehicles that served 4x4 enthusiasts that were cheap. Who knows there may be a classic under way..who knows!

Iam happy M&M is taking their customers seriously and making products of their choice, if not completely but atleast near to it. Behram sir, Kudos to your team to have put together a fantastic vehicle from existing parts bin. It is a great fusion.


Now things i need as standard fitment in personal segment Thar -
1. A/c
2. Protection for engine oil sump
3. LSD (I know it is tough but please push for it)
5. AT tyres (not HT)
6. Good canopy that can hold a/c else a fantastic looking hard top.
7. Non rattling rear door
8. Create a visual differentiation for 4wd models (not just by stickers). 4wd owners must feel special

Low cost Thar-

1. Only p/s
2. Solid axle live suspension
3. Crde engine (Which engine you know it better)
4. Solid dashboard (pathra)

To make your brain child sell in large numbers-
1. offer it in 2wd



Future models-
1. A upgraded model based on Major- NGCS (strictly without IFS please! Else it would look awful!)
2. Bolero storm 4wd (Can be a cheap LC 70 like station wagon )

So what your next thread??

Last edited by vinod_nookala : 11th January 2010 at 10:54.
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Old 11th January 2010, 11:07   #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Finally, I want this vehicle to actually sell in huge numbers and not just discuss in a thread.
Dear Mr. Dhabhar, that was a wonderful introduction. We are really fortunate to have you in our midst. I really appreciate the time you take out and the effort you make to answer our queries. Quite obviously its that very "auto passion" that binds us all.

I too would love to see the Thar sell in volumes. May I suggest a few things to that effect:

1. Model lineup should start with a Base version

2wd
power steering
great colours
smart high wear resistant weatherproof interior
Price @ Rs 6.5 lacs on road max

Target segment: Youth, single professionals, women, young couples, second car etc. Fun is the key word and versatility in terms of utility with style

Position the vehicle as a combination lifestyle/ smart utility vehicle. You should attempt to wean away the premium hatchback/ entry level sedan buyer.

2. Option: a/c

3. Option: light moulded plastic hard top (2 people should be able to remove within minutes) as an accessory

4. Option: Base offroad package

2 speed T case, front/rear diff with highway cruising pinion/crown gear set and free wheeling hubs

5. Option: Rear LSD

6. Option: Extreme offroad packages

a. pinion/crown gear set upgrades
b. factory installed difflocks front and/or rear
c. rock rails/underbody protection
d. high lift suspension kit
e. extreme offroad tyres
f. roll cage
g. advanced navigation system
h. survival pack (tent, fuel/water jerry cans, spade, axe, twin burner camping stove)
i. winch

7. Option: ABS and airbags

Your top end Thar with all the goodies thrown in should be Rs 2 lacs cheaper than your Scorpio 4wd

I reckon you could work toward 3000 units a year with this kind of a lineup, which should meet your expectations for the car

Last edited by DKG : 11th January 2010 at 11:13.
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Old 11th January 2010, 11:35   #305
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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Aren't Gypsy/MM540 8/7 seaters? I believe the WB will remain the same. And CMVR won't allow the 2-seater configuration of Thar in India.
Where? I am not aware of any such rule.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
1. Model lineup should start with a Base version

2wd
Asking for another taxi segment vehicle eh?

Quote:
f. roll cage
I think this is already required by the CMV rules? As a safety measure?


Quote:
g. advanced navigation system
h. survival pack (tent, fuel/water jerry cans, spade, axe, twin burner camping stove)
i. winch
Why should this come from M&M?

What about rear and tow hook??

What/how is the "skin" of the body going to be? I hope not just a Jeep body plonked onto a Scorpio body. Will it be just like the existing Major / Jeep? I am NOT meaning the appearence. I mean the cosntruction. I prefer it come with something like the Tata's station wagon (x07) range - two skins with pull down (rather than open to side) tail gate, flush in door handles. The Maxx is something close to what I have in mind.
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Old 11th January 2010, 11:53   #306
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The proof of the pudding is in eating it. Still waiting..
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Old 11th January 2010, 11:55   #307
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Default 2 seater or 7/8 seater

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Aren't Gypsy/MM540 8/7 seaters? I believe the WB will remain the same. And CMVR won't allow the 2-seater configuration of Thar in India.
Dear Samurai- your query regarding the 2 seater and 7/8 seater is correct, M&M cannot introduce the 2 seater configuration of Thar in domestic market as the regulations are different, i think Mahindra Thar will be sold as a N1 category vehicle hence it can get away with 2 seater configuration, whereas if they need to sell it in India only 2 options remain either increase the declared GVW or increase the seating capacity to 7 or 8. However, one point to be noted is that if the vehicle is in N1 category the payload due to goods must be greater than payload due to passengers similarly if it is a M1 category vehicle the payload due to passengers must be greater than the payload due to goods, Gurus please correct me if I am wrong.
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Old 11th January 2010, 12:31   #308
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Default Too many question

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Dear Samurai- your query regarding the 2 seater and 7/8 seater is correct, M&M cannot introduce the 2 seater configuration of Thar in domestic market as the regulations are different, i think Mahindra Thar will be sold as a N1 category vehicle hence it can get away with 2 seater configuration, whereas if they need to sell it in India only 2 options remain either increase the declared GVW or increase the seating capacity to 7 or 8. However, one point to be noted is that if the vehicle is in N1 category the payload due to goods must be greater than payload due to passengers similarly if it is a M1 category vehicle the payload due to passengers must be greater than the payload due to goods, Gurus please correct me if I am wrong.
You have nailed it! But slight clarification, I think 7 or 8 seater is for excise duty concessions and weight is to pass through relatively lineant emission norms for vehicles weighing more than certain level. If thar was offered at 1500 kgs then it would have to pass through stricter emission norms, resulting in higher costs.

But key question is-Why does Thar weigh @ 1750 kgs, 10 kgs more than Bolero at 1650, when Invader is at 1575? Same thing was seen with Force Gurkha tipping scales at 1750 kgs! Gurkha atleast has a steel body. When Bolero and Invader can pass through regulations with less weight then why not cleaner engined thar?


Behram sir and others further explain the law.

P.s- See this Video, older and lighter jeeps doing a sand climb, including a DI turo major but not able to clear it despite momentum, but later Redmm440 scorpio powered CJ 340 clears without a hiccup! Ditto with the getaway. Hence guys there is no susbtitute to power on a sand climb

http://www.youtube.com/user/TharMahi.../3/bj58UN-5p3U

Last edited by vinod_nookala : 11th January 2010 at 12:38.
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Old 11th January 2010, 12:36   #309
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THANK YOU Mr. DHABHAR.BEHRAM

All my wishes for the THAR [A new JEEP] are fulfilled. I am a happy person. Now only few more question remain.Like the Option list and/or factory support for addons.
Simple list here too.
1. LSD and/or Diff locks for front and rear either factory option on can be added later.Parts and service,or support on at least apporved companies from whom these can be acquired.[so there is no guess work when hunting for parts]

2.Winch.

3.Hard top option. [not for me].



4.Lift kit , if anyone wants to increase the GC, to accommodate big tyres.Again same either from M&M or point to companies.

5.Floating axles at least as option.


@Vinod, the Gurkha had to comply with Indian army spec, hence the weight of 1750KG.
I do not know why the weight on THAR is so high. Only one person can clarify.

Last edited by dinar : 11th January 2010 at 12:43.
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Old 11th January 2010, 12:43   #310
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The law does not follow 4x4 rules. But the above 2 posts [#307 & #308] were educative. Thanks guys

Last edited by headers : 11th January 2010 at 12:45.
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Old 11th January 2010, 12:46   #311
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Automotive Vehicles – Types – Terminology

A quick read does not prohibit vehicles of M1/N1 categories having only 2 seats. And the document does define "off road vehicle". An offroader is defined as M1G.

Quote:
3.1.3 Off road vehicles (Cross country vehicles) –Symbol ‘G’
Means a vehicle of category M or N satisfying the requirements given 3.1.3.1
to 3.1.4
3.1.3.1 N1 with a GVW not exceeding 2 ton and M1
Vehicles in Category N1 with a GVW not exceeding 2 ton and vehicles in
Category M1 are considered to be off- road vehicles if they:
a) have at least one front axle and at least one rear axle designed to be driven
simultaneously, including vehicles where the drive to one axle can be
disengaged, and
b) shall be capable of climbing a 30% gradient with vehicle in the solo condition.
(see 3.1.4.1)
2/14
Page 6
AIS-053
c) have at least one differential locking mechanism or at least one mechanism
having similar effect.
3.1.3.1.1 In addition, they shall satisfy at least five of the following six requirements: (see
3.1.4.2)
a) The approach angle shall be at least 25 degree,
b) The departure angle shall be at least 20 degree,
c) The ramp angle shall be at least 20 degree,
d) The ground clearance under the front axle shall be at least 180 mm,
e) The ground clearance under the rear axle shall be at least 180 mm,
f) The ground clearance between the axles shall be at least 200 mm.
See annexure 1 - classify it as AE convertible, and you need to have only 2 seats.

Please point out what I am missing here.

Spike arrestor - N* is goods. Why go in for that kind of classification? Several RTOs will not allow white board aka non-transport vehicle registration, and additionally, driving license will require special endorsement to drive yellow boards. (that is, if classified as N*).

Last edited by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR : 11th January 2010 at 12:50.
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Old 11th January 2010, 12:49   #312
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OK. So we are getting a Scorpio under Jeep skin. Thats Jeep EVO !.
Then soon we will have a SWB Scorpio as well to re-live the Mini Pajero & TATA Sierra era. The safety of closed body with comfort of A/C & comfy Seats.
Just another wish-list thread away may be...
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Old 11th January 2010, 12:56   #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinar View Post
@Vinod, the Gurkha had to comply with Indian army spec, hence the weight of 1750KG.
What does army spec has to do with weight? Does army 550 weigh 1750 kgs? I dont think so!
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Old 11th January 2010, 13:00   #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR View Post
Spike arrestor - N* is goods. Why go in for that kind of classification? Several RTOs will not allow white board aka non-transport vehicle registration, and additionally, driving license will require special endorsement to drive yellow boards. (that is, if classified as N*).
M&M is launching Thar in Europe in N1 category and not in India.
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Old 11th January 2010, 13:03   #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post
But key question is-Why does Thar weigh @ 1750 kgs, 10 kgs more than Bolero at 1650, when Invader is at 1575? Same thing was seen with Force Gurkha tipping scales at 1750 kgs! Gurkha atleast has a steel body. When Bolero and Invader can pass through regulations with less weight then why not cleaner engined thar?
I think it may be because of 'ALL NEW High GAUGE STEEL BODY', thats been used in THAR (Its menioned something like that in the features list). also The combine of T-Case, New Engine + Roll Cage may add another approx. 150-200 KG.
Just guessing.
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