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Old 26th January 2010, 02:05   #601
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Originally Posted by khan_sultan View Post
Yeah, the stock THAR with NO MLD, 180 mm GC (is it 180 or 200?), 235/70/16 tyres, silencer some 3" below the chassis + other odd-bits and pieces below the chassis, would ahve EASILY done this in 2WD mode, with all that 90 BHP (or is it 100/105 BHP ) and 27kgm of torque.
if it would have been taken on that trail, then sure it would have had failed in the test cycle for euro emission norms as the catalyst would have busted.
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Old 26th January 2010, 03:14   #602
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I am a complete newbie in terms of offroading and am seriously looking at that as a hobby and I have been reading all these discussions, but if I compare the Gypsy to the base Thar what is that I am to gain at a price of 5.5l (gypsy approx blr price) ? What is the diffrentiating factor at this price?

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Old 26th January 2010, 09:20   #603
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did some one mentioned a goat?

no no its not a goat, its a Niligiri Thar the mountain goat!
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Old 26th January 2010, 10:36   #604
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Originally Posted by sammyboy View Post
but if I compare the Gypsy to the base Thar what is that I am to gain at a price of 5.5l (gypsy approx blr price) ? What is the diffrentiating factor at this price?
- Great ride & comfort
- High speed cruising ability
- Diesel engine, with good torque/power and mileage

Problem here is offroading is a bug, once it bites you, you want to graduate to a higher level. Thats when Thar gets into trouble, atleast as per the current sighting.

On the other hand, Gypsy is a bare bone (absolute basic mechanicals) tried and tested machine. With 1 lakh one can make it a terrific extreme trail vehicle. Yes it sucks big time with its choppy ride and high speed capabilities. But then she seems to be the best VFM option available at this moment.

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did some one mentioned a goat?

no no its not a goat, its a Niligiri Thar the mountain goat!
Let's wait for the goat to come out of its cave, then only we can confirm if its a mountain goat or not
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Old 26th January 2010, 10:54   #605
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[quote=Jaggu;1700095

Let's wait for the goat to come out of its cave, then only we can confirm if its a mountain goat or not [/quote]

its already out of its cave and into its natural habitat, getting used to the environment and testing the waters before being let loose!
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Mahindra Thar revealed at Autoexpo 2010-thar20043.jpg  

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Old 26th January 2010, 15:53   #606
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Dear Sharath and all - my reply to your absolutely logical question on whether the Thar would have cleared everything the Bangalore OTR threw at it without difficulty, with difficulty or not at all is as follows. But before I start replying to this question, let me make one thing very clear. I am neither pro IFS nor anti IFS. I think I have told everybody very clearly why IFS is there. IFS shall remain as IFS only. Also, I am neither pro catcon nor anti catcon. Without catcon, there is no Thar.

That said, let me put it this way. Driven by a representative operator, the Thar would have cleared the Bangalore OTR with a fair degree of difficulty. All of us will understand and appreciate that OTRs are not completed on the track, they are completed in the mind. It is this mindset that brought us all there in the first place. I provided some sort of a clue in my post dated 25th January where I mentioned the exact details how the CJ340 crossed the ditch. CORRECT startup stance, CORRECT startup gear, CORRECT changeup midway through the obstacle, CORRECT accelerator pedal position at any given time through the obstacle, all TOGETHER help to clear the obstacle. The only way is PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE. I have been fortunate that I could very quietly pursue my PRACTICE during those 2 days that I tried to spend everytime on the track before each Great Escape in my CL340 MH01P2540, which has today enabled me to type this post so frankly. Not many get such a fantastic opportunity.

Now coming to the Bangalore OTR, there were the following obstacles:

1 ----- the first one where I met Arka. It was rock left + rock right + more rock left etc. The correct way to tackle this obstacle would be to initialize the vehicle stance to the right of the obstacle and use the obstacle to position the vehicle in such a way that the IFS was always on top of the rock to clear it out of harm's way (it would have necessarily required LSD / MLD), therefore the Thar with LSD / MLD would have done this, the Scorpio would have probably got a little weighed down if it had tried to do it. But let us not forget the most important thing, that is, nobody wants to break his car just for the heck of it. I am totally against doing something which my mind is not comfortable with, so I won't do it. I recall that somebody told me to do it, I quietly declined. So, it must be left to every individual vehicle owner who must finally decide what he wants to do. I saw one MM540 quietly making its way out of this obstacle through undergrowth, shrubbery et al, without trying to break his car (if you break it, you repair it, nobody else does it for you). If I owned my Thar, I would not have tackled this obstacle at all. It is a concious decision and it must be respected by all as such in right spirit. Believe you me, senseless manoeuvres have got me into deep trouble numerous times. The intention is to enjoy, not break the car.

2 ----- Then we walked with the convoy. There were a series of ditches which would have been a cake walk for the Thar. The sheer torque would have pulled it out of everything. Low range would not be required, 4WD would have ensured a higher peace of mind. Probably in 2WD also it would have got over these things.

3 ----- There was this huge rock and we were to go down (the one we had lunch on). No sweat here at all. Low range would have avoided me using the brakes so I would have done it but in correct gear. I would have merrily driven through. Prople were going very slowly which was good from safety point of view. I appreciate the marshalls' efforts. Maybe in the Thar, I would have gone up this rock rather than down, obviously in low range with LSD / MLD.

4 ----- There was some meandering into a trail where we got lost. This is where I drove the MM540. The starter had bust so we push started it and I had to stand behind the convoy holding the brake pedal which was sinking (some small leak somewhere), so I cross axled in reverse, pulled out of the track, reversed into a plain area and stopped. I know that some jaws dropped out when I did this. Normally people would not imagine that this could be done, but I did it. For the MM, this was in low, for the Thar also, I would do it in low just to prevent my clutch from burning. Remember, I want to enjoy, not break the car.

5 ----- The final CJ340 ditch. This was simple. I am revealing something for the first time. Stand outside the car. Just look at the trail. The trail will talk to you. You will see invisible paths, exactly where you are going to position your left / right tyres. This thing was not sharp, going down was to be done by keeping the trough in the centre, going up was to be done by positioning the car exactly in place taking datum from the left side, not the right side. For this to happen, it was necessary to reverse a little bit which I did, then it was into the datum which was partially on the vertical face but you must throw the car into the datum or you won't get through. People are not used to throwing the car into a vertical face. It is for us to guide them. Then it was just a matter of "up and over". Thar here? No sweat at all, even with the higher track width.

One more thing. PRACTICE has taught me to use my driveline expeditiously. I use all sorts of combinations between 4WD high and 4WD low. Therefore, most of the time, I am driving only in 4th and 5th gears (Thar has NGT530R). A simple combination of transmission ratios (remember, we talked alternate transmission ratios?) and transfer case help will provide you with the perfect enjoyable combination. Just don't break anything please, its just not worth it.

If I had come as a Thar owner, I would have certainly enjoyed my OTR, provided I understood and follwed what is written here. After all, enjoyment of our passion for OTR is what its all about, isn't it?

My final comment - Fazalbhai has driven it. Fazalbhai, thanks for waiting patiently all these months, you may please give your comments now.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

MAHINDRA THAR - "GO ANYWHERE".
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Old 26th January 2010, 16:12   #607
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Thanks Behram, i will accept the reply as a fair one!

Now our concerns, rather confusion will be:

- GC increase options, apart from tyre. If tyre will the suspension travel be compromised?
- Alternate routing for the exhaust system??
- Launch date?
- Pricing? Please please god, dont bugger this one!
- Optional hard top

cheers
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Old 26th January 2010, 16:18   #608
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Dear Behram- the clarification on Thar and regarding the 4x4 event seems interesting and would have been fun for you in action, but most of it was OHT (Overhead transmission) for me. will have to sit with you to understand what most of it means.
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Old 26th January 2010, 17:57   #609
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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Maybe in the Thar, I would have gone up this rock rather than down, obviously in low range with LSD / MLD.
Dear DB Sir,

We did NOT get an opportunity to meet you as you had left by the time we arrived. We were at the rear and hence could not be there early.

I will call you later to discuss about the THAR which we guys from Chennai saw!!

Cheers
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Old 26th January 2010, 22:40   #610
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Posting a pic to emphasis on the wonders of keeping it simple. (Looks dept).

Notice that thin red, pencil strip kind of line, that adds a real neat touch.

Mahindra Thar revealed at Autoexpo 2010-red_line.jpg

Source: Mahindra's Flicker Album
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Old 27th January 2010, 06:11   #611
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Once you are sunk up to your axles in most surfaces you are probably stuck. And, also, once you are sunk up to 200mm in most vehicles you are probably stuck. Not every 200mm GC is the same. On the Thar I am concerned about the vulnerability to damage of those torsion bars among other things. My mind can picture a bar snapping on a rock. Anybody that has seen the Thar got an opinion? I can just see the bling icon in Moga and Dabwali in 5 or ten years....spare torsion bars strapped to the sides of their Thars instead of picks and shovels.

Last edited by DirtyDan : 27th January 2010 at 06:18.
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Old 27th January 2010, 09:11   #612
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Dev, i didnt want to argue with you yesterday. But 2 wheel or 4 wheel this aint gonna rock the sales numbers at a high price tag ie 6lakhs which is 7.2lakhs OTR in BLR minimum.
You are right. Which is why I have underlined the the line in my post which says "sell it the way it should be sold" and that holds the key.That is where your "education" part should come into place. The Thar is not just another vehicle which can be sold by displaying it in the showroom,giving test drives in traffic and putting some bling on it. It is different. All comparison stops there.
Also, the Thar was not meant to and will never be the "bread and butter" model for M&M.
It is a niche vehicle which will sell "enough" to justify its production and homologation if,and I repeat "sold in the right way".
All of us are aware that family sedans beat niche vehicles in numbers worldwide. India is no different, but, the Thar can and will create a segment of its own like the RE bikes and carve a niche for itself and the same can also be commercially profitable if, and I will never tire of saying this "sold the right way".

Need some real world methods and figures, PM me anytime
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Old 27th January 2010, 09:46   #613
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Sometimes I wish, we could just get the orignial Thar displayed with the NGCS chasis, front and back leaf spring set up and TCIC engine. M&M would have been able to keep the price lower with this combination rather than go for an IFS set up. Basically an army 550 with a better engine. Legend - the cosmetic crap + CRDe power plant or atleast offer the legend as it is.

But I guess it is too late for that. I feel that anyone expecting the Thar below 6 lakhs should go to their nearest M&M showroom and get a price quote for the Mahindra Major 4x4 and Bolero Invader 4x4 and see if you can get IFS/CRDe etc.. cheaper than that.
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Old 27th January 2010, 10:08   #614
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n.devdath View Post
You are right.
==========
India is no different, but, the Thar can and will create a segment of its own like the RE bikes and carve a niche for itself and the same can also be commercially profitable if, and I will never tire of saying this "sold the right way".

Need some real world methods and figures, PM me anytime
Now am confused, you were debating that a 2 wheel drive Thar if sold the right way can displace the sedans and hatch back and tap that market from yuppies. Hence the earlier post.

What i said it will not! yes maybe a niche mad crowd would. Rest would still prefer the comfort of hatch/sedan.

Comparing it with RE is altogether a different thing, lets not even get into that.
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Old 27th January 2010, 10:19   #615
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Now am confused, you were debating that a 2 wheel drive Thar if sold the right way can displace the sedans and hatch back and tap that market from yuppies. Hence the earlier post.
What i said it will not! yes maybe a niche mad crowd would. Rest would still prefer the comfort of hatch/sedan.
What I said was, a 2 wheel drive version of the Thar would garner considerably more volumes than a "four wheel drive only" version.In fact, that was the question that Behram Sir had asked.
Also, a 2 wheel drive version will certainly wean away a section of the yuppie crowd if sold the "proper way". but that doesn't mean sedans and hatches will stop selling. I m sorry if I was unclear on that.

Also, the comfort of the Thar still needs to be tested based on the seat configuration that will be made available in India on various terrain which a normal yuppie would subject it to.
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