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Old 15th February 2010, 19:38   #751
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Originally Posted by kavesh55 View Post
Coming back to the Thar, there were people at the expo who were willing to sell their Rs. 7-8 lakh sedan to make way for the Thar.
Hi Kavesh,

There has always been people who promise this and that, but when it comes to bite the bullet lets see how many line up with the payments for the booking.

I still believe India is a very unique market when it comes to 4x4's. Basically 3 kinds of people who would consider them:

1- Utility needs, huge number of customers. This includes customers from hilly region. But they are price conscious.

2- The bling aka yuppie crowd. Mostly in metro's. Limited numbers and mostly will buy it as a second vehicle. Affordability might be better here.

3- Pure offroaders, again limited numbers. Afordability lil better but still price conscious. They would want anything and everything offroad at a price lol

Now trick is to introduce the vehicle making it attractive for all 3 crowds at different price bracket to make the model a success. ie if the aim is to sell it in numbers.

Please note that all 3 have some price range and anything above that, will deter them from their purchase.

Now if its making it attractive for a sedan/hatch buyer then it will be a totally diff ball game. Closest i can refer is something like a diesel Jimny at around 7-8 lakhs OTR. This will fit the bill for 2 & 3 to a great extend. Still numbers will be nowhere near great.
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Old 15th February 2010, 19:57   #752
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well said Jaggu, I know at least 10 people who need a reliable, economical and fair-priced 4x4 as a utillity - especially to go to their farms and I was talking to a few of them and told them about the Thar - Their reaction was - "If they sell me a new one for 4-4.5 lakhs or so , I will buy a Thar, anything over 5L is too expensive!". These are people who have lived with mahindra 4x4s and know a lot about them, for them a mahindra is a plain utillity - they don't care two hoots for OTRs . They need to reach their farms in reasonable comfort and carry all their stuff.

To sum it up - if the Thar is not priced right, it will just end up being another "yuppie mobile"

Last edited by techn0l0gist : 15th February 2010 at 20:04.
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Old 15th February 2010, 20:05   #753
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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Hi Kavesh,

There has always been people who promise this and that, but when it comes to bite the bullet lets see how many line up with the payments for the booking.

I still believe India is a very unique market when it comes to 4x4's. Basically 3 kinds of people who would consider them:

1- Utility needs, huge number of customers. This includes customers from hilly region. But they are price conscious.

2- The bling aka yuppie crowd. Mostly in metro's. Limited numbers and mostly will buy it as a second vehicle. Affordability might be better here.

3- Pure offroaders, again limited numbers. Afordability lil better but still price conscious. They would want anything and everything offroad at a price lol

Now trick is to introduce the vehicle making it attractive for all 3 crowds at different price bracket to make the model a success. ie if the aim is to sell it in numbers.

Please note that all 3 have some price range and anything above that, will deter them from their purchase.

Now if its making it attractive for a sedan/hatch buyer then it will be a totally diff ball game. Closest i can refer is something like a diesel Jimny at around 7-8 lakhs OTR. This will fit the bill for 2 & 3 to a great extend. Still numbers will be nowhere near great.
As per your suggestion and categorization of the market into 3 segments, the THAR must be launched in 3 variants which should be further broken into sub variants:

Variant 1 - for the utility segment, available in 2WD & 4WD options, with rear row seats, Non AC, No PS, HT & ST, basic dash (Total 4 variants in this segment)

Variant 2 - for the Bling class, available in 4WD only with a ST, alloys, PS, AC and a modern dash adding to the overall lifestyle statement

Variant 3 - for the off roaders, a basic mean machine with bare minimum and basics that can be reworked on to suit tastes and satisfy the lonh wish lists of all

However with the above, I still feel 2 Variants of the THAR would be perfect, 1 the bare basic mean machine with basic pricing (black Thar being tested offroad by Behram Sir) and the 2nd Variant with all the jazz (Silver Thar besides which Behram sir was standing outside the Temple)
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Old 15th February 2010, 20:50   #754
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Diwali : I was banking on next 3 months. Restting the expectations.

Price : Should be like you get basic offroader kit + AC+ PS in basic price of say 5 - 5.50 L on road.

Rest all should be customizablelike

Hardtop
LSD
FFRA
Locks

etc etc

This gives 2 advantages

1. I can choose what i want ( depending upon my usage as a new bie in off roading like me would prefer more highway comfort by compromising on off road capabilities) , this also gives me money saving option

2. I can customise it later as well & also buy it for less price & over a period of time when I have money as well as experience & requirements I upgrade off roading capabilities

Hope you experts agree & Mr. Dhabhar is listening
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Old 15th February 2010, 21:33   #755
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Headers,
I doubt. I know export DC bolero come with similar set up for 4wd, but what about storm's chassis?

Spike educate me on this
This can be done VN..

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Dear Headers,

your funda is clear, your GB is NGT530R, so that problem is solved,
Thanks Spike - We will take it OFFLINE..

Ciao
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Old 16th February 2010, 00:12   #756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
..........I still believe India is a very unique market when it comes to 4x4's. Basically 3 kinds of people who would consider them:

1- Utility needs, huge number of customers. This includes customers from hilly region. But they are price conscious.

2- The bling aka yuppie crowd. Mostly in metro's. Limited numbers and mostly will buy it as a second vehicle. Affordability might be better here.

3- Pure offroaders, again limited numbers. Afordability lil better but still price conscious. They would want anything and everything offroad at a price lol

Now trick is to introduce the vehicle making it attractive for all 3 crowds at different price bracket to make the model a success. ie if the aim is to sell it in numbers.
If you take the 3 suppositions above and expand them across international and military markets you might get a heterogeneous but respectable market. However, I do not see IFS as a component that will span that potential market. Rugged simplicity and capabililty are what is called for. This means solid front axle. But a solid front axle precludes using the Scorpio chassis. Chassis gone, so, too, would be the new BSIV NEF motor. It seems if you take the NEF you must take the Scorpio chassis and IFS. This in turn seems to defeat a more univeral marketability.
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Old 16th February 2010, 17:16   #757
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@DirtyDan well said, makes lot of sense

Spike
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Old 16th February 2010, 17:38   #758
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Originally Posted by DirtyDan View Post
This means solid front axle. But a solid front axle precludes using the Scorpio chassis. Chassis gone, so, too, would be the new BSIV NEF motor. It seems if you take the NEF you must take the Scorpio chassis and IFS. This in turn seems to defeat a more universal marketability.
Hi DD,

The NEF249 was the TCIC Version of the NEF249 CRDe (M-Eagle) both displacing 2498cc. Which is identical to you know what .

This interesting engine was fitted on IFS DuCa Bolero Campers for export to South Africa.

Interestingly, in the above IFS setup the Front Diff is off-set to the Right, like your regular M&M JEEPs, and the Front Prop-Shaft runs along the Crank-case to the Front Diff-Just as it would in a Solid Axle Setup.

However M&M wishes us to believe that, in the above IFS setup the prop-shaft will not foul, where as in Solid Axle Leaf Spring it is likely to foul.

In case of a Front 3 Link Solid Axle Coil Spring their argument would hold weight, but....

Has M&M over the years made a Front & Rear Solid Axle Coil Spring Prototype of any 4WD?

Hell does M&M have a 4WD section, like their R&D Section?

I don't think the Indian Army will opt for a Thar-esque platform with IFS & Rack and Pinion Steering.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 16th February 2010, 22:00   #759
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@Arka please dont confuse people in a public forum, M-Eagle is a different animal altogether, also there was nothing so called "NEF 249", can you tell me who has told you the propeller shaft will foul with _____ in Solid axle setup? Also, in automobile companies departments are divided according to systems like Air Intake, Brakes, Chassis etc etc, and not as you told.

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Old 17th February 2010, 12:01   #760
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
@Arka please dont confuse people in a public forum, M-Eagle is a different animal altogether, also there was nothing so called "NEF 249", can you tell me who has told you the propeller shaft will foul with _____ in Solid axle setup? Also, in automobile companies departments are divided according to systems like Air Intake, Brakes, Chassis etc etc, and not as you told.

Spike
Hi Spike,

I made a mistake, I am giving the correction below.

You are right the Engine is called NEF TCI 2.49L;(fitted on Bolero SCDC RHD - South Africa (SPL) model no BN529DCR1/BN529SCR1/BN529SCR1/BN529SCR2) which is basically a XD3P, beefed up and Turbo-Charged, the same thing you converted to CRDI after a few years.

As far as the Prop-Shaft Fouling that was one of the reasons quoted by DB Sir, further quoting Gaurev Prabhaker; who you quoted very recently.

Also in the case of the Diff-Housing hitting the Crankcase.

This was justified as a reason to go for IFS, then after a few months it was redefined as a MINI-SCORPIO.

If there are so many divisions, Do you have a FRONT AXLE/SUSPENSION Division?.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 17th February 2010, 12:25   #761
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I am aware of this Turbo charged XD3p for south Africa. This engine dint do too well there. If i am not wrong this engine produce 90+ bhp but had problems. hence discontinued.

NEF engines were to meet future emission norms and improved power to match international competition. Mr.Behram dhabar keeps denying that NEF is not a upgraded XD3p but Arka disagrees. No end to it!

Regarding diff and prop shaft fouling even i was under opinion that NEF 2.5 (M eagle) is large and hence IFS. But when i saw it in real that was not the case. Any way i am happy M&M guys have taken note of it and hope they are working on it.

Any way i think weather to give solid axle with NEF engine and gearbox is their ultimate decision. Has nothing to do with CMVR and all i think. Only grouse would be one of the main wish list wasn't honored. Solid axle leaf spring all round and no non sense engine with decent cruise ability were the main hardware wish list apart from a/c and p/s.

But i still feel- "picture abhi baki hai mere dost...."

Last edited by vinod_nookala : 17th February 2010 at 12:28.
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Old 17th February 2010, 12:39   #762
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Quote:
Solid axle leaf spring all round and no non sense engine with decent cruise ability
Solid axle and decent cruise ability, will it go hand in hand?
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Old 17th February 2010, 13:01   #763
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Solid axle and decent cruise ability, will it go hand in hand?


Yes Jaggu, it will go hand in hand provided suitable engine is used. In fact solid axle has nothing to do with cruise- ability.
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Old 17th February 2010, 13:04   #764
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Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post
Yes Jaggu, it will go hand in hand provided suitable engine is used. In fact solid axle has nothing to do with cruise- ability.
In Karnataka roads it does. I could easily cruise in my Jeep in TN and KL roads, but in Karnataka it is a pain.
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Old 17th February 2010, 13:16   #765
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In Karnataka roads it does. I could easily cruise in my Jeep in TN and KL roads, but in Karnataka it is a pain.
That is like saying I want to cruise in choppy waters or rough weather.

Last edited by ex670c : 17th February 2010 at 13:24.
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