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Old 18th February 2010, 10:13   #796
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I think this engine discussion needs it's own thread. let me throw another spanner in the works. The low revving CRDe D2 engine that comes on the Xylo D2, is that based on the DI Turbo MDI3200T engine?
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Old 18th February 2010, 11:27   #797
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Default Xd3p

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Hi Arka, i like your agreement but, if you refer the above link you will find that there is an Ashok Leyland engine with 2498 cc and 94.0 mm bore, what do you say about that? is it from ford, peugeot or M&M?. 1. Crankshaft, conrods and pistons cannot be same as the power and torque generated by NEF engines is much much higher than XD3P engines,they may look similar but the weight grading, cross sections and materials are different. 2. NEF CRDi 2.6L displaces 2609cc and NEF CRDi 2.49L displaces 2498cc.
3. Weight of engine is 187 kgs with all fluids topped up. Hope it is clear now.

Spike

P.S. Arka please decide first, which engine does NEF resemble to XD3P,SZ2600 or MDI3200 (SZ2600 is a square engine, MDI3200 is undersquare and XD3P is oversquare), you cannot stand on three boats at the same time, and if you say NEF resembles SZ2600/MDI3200 that means your logic of NEF resembling XD3P is incorrect. Let me know the answer once you decide on this.

Hi Spike,


As

1) The Bore X Stroke are same as the XD3P.
M&M has been making this engine since 1993/94 they have all the machines and tools, do you think they are just going to throw this away.

The XD3P we designed to be Turbocharged from its inception, even if the NEF CRDI requires a different Piston/Crank-Shaft/Con-Rod the Forging is similar . And M&M has a lovely facility in Igatpuri? to make the XD3P.

2) The NEF engine weights are similar to the Peugeot XD Series.
The B275 Family i.e MDI3200TC and SZ2600 weigh 270-325 Kgs.
The XDP4.9/XD3P weigh 194Kgs approx.

3) Even uses the Peugeot Type Oil-Cooler.


4) The Block has been cast similar to SZ2600/MDI3200 to
i) Retain familiarity
ii) Reduce re-finishing on the raw casting
iii) Similar Engine Mounts/Bell-Housing/Starter Motors
iii) Mislead people into believing this is a whole new FAMILY of engines.


6) Ford/Caterpillar/M&M were licensed to make the XD3P.

Is there any other 4 Cylinder Diesel Engine which Displaces 2498cc?

For a 2498cc engine.

If is Bore 94mm then obviously the stroke has to be 90mm

Only other way is to have Bore of 90mm and a Stroke of 94mm.

What is the Bore of the NEF TCI 2.49L or NEF 2.49 CRDi?

The NEF 2.49L CRDe is The XD3P CRDI.

Though the NEF does not physically resemble the XD3P, because there will be legal implications.

However the rotating assembly assembly has been directly copied from the XD3P, which M&M has considerable experience manufacturing since 1993.

It looks like a MDI/SZ family, revs Like a Peugeot, weighs as much as a Peugeot.

Spike a few Direct question
1) What is the minimum Oil Pressure for the MDI3200TC?
2) What is the minimum Oil Pressure for the NEF 2.49 CRDe?
3) What is the minimum Oil Pressure for the XD3P?

If you guys (M&M) are really that smart I hope along with the Oil Cooler, you have used the Peugeot Lubrication System, which is one of the best in the world.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 18th February 2010, 12:31   #798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
If you guys (M&M) are really that smart I hope along with the Oil Cooler, you have used the Peugeot Lubrication System, which is one of the best in the world.
They ARE SMART - They have turned Tractor engines into SUVs that meet BS4 Emission Norms as well as give us the power. Refinement is a continuous improvement factor.

Guess Peugeot is an old story so any similarities to that family will NOT be referred to / entertained / answered.

BTW - Spike - NEF stands for New Engine For ? Next Engineering F??
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Old 18th February 2010, 12:49   #799
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Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post
BTW - Spike - NEF stands for New Engine For ? Next Engineering F??

N=new
E=engine
F=family

And stop calling me Spike!

*****************************

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear Parm - ref your query, it is a 2.5 litre NEF CRDe (New Engine Family) which develops 105 BHP / 27 kgm. Please do not attach any name to it.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 18th February 2010, 12:52   #800
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@Headers good one, no more answers for engines from now on, lets keep this thread for Thar only, engines we can discuss elsewhere.

Spike
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Old 18th February 2010, 12:57   #801
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Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post
BTW - Spike - NEF stands for New Engine For ? Next Engineering F??
It is New Engine Family
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Old 18th February 2010, 18:10   #802
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDan View Post
N=new
E=engine
F=family

And stop calling me Spike!

*****************************

ROFLMAO DD as always.
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Old 18th February 2010, 19:22   #803
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Post Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction...

Hi Arka, i have some pictures for you, the pictures are arranged in the following order 1. Piston NEF 2. Block XD3p 3. Block NEF 4. Crankshaft Xd3P 5. Crankshaft NEF 6. Piston XD3P 7. Conrod XD3P 8. Conrod NEF
@Dear Fellow BHPians there are many more things which i cannot disclose in this forum, hope these pictures must have given you the answer for the ongoing debate.

Spike.

P.S.- Arka are you a lawyer by any chance?
No offences meant please.
Attached Thumbnails
Mahindra Thar revealed at Autoexpo 2010-piston-nef.jpg  

Mahindra Thar revealed at Autoexpo 2010-block-xd3p.jpg  

Mahindra Thar revealed at Autoexpo 2010-block-nef.jpg  

Mahindra Thar revealed at Autoexpo 2010-crankshaft-xd3p.jpg  

Mahindra Thar revealed at Autoexpo 2010-crankshaft-nef.jpg  

Attached Images
   

Last edited by SPIKE ARRESTOR : 18th February 2010 at 19:26. Reason: pictures got mixed up after uploading
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Old 18th February 2010, 21:22   #804
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
For a 2498cc engine.

If is Bore 94mm then obviously the stroke has to be 90mm

Only other way is to have Bore of 90mm and a Stroke of 94mm.

Arka
??

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 18th February 2010, 21:36   #805
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Arrow swept volume

^^^ Volume of cylinder = φrh

With bore 94 mm and stroke 90 mm

(22/7) * (94/2) * (94/2) * 90 = 624.83 cc (per cylinder)
624.83 * 4 = 2499 cc

Last edited by Blue Thunder : 18th February 2010 at 21:50. Reason: added smiley !
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Old 18th February 2010, 22:02   #806
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Guys something for you all to chew on. For generations the Rover group lived off an old Buick V8 which served as the basis for their Range Rover and Rover cars.They kept tweaking it for ever. I think they still do !!

Rolls Royce for all they once could do could never make an engine so they lived off a GM powerplant till BMW lent them some V12's

Jaguar for all the brilliant cars it made over the century couldn't go beyond their classic slant six and V12 and had to sell out to Ford and got a breather of new V8's from Ford

Bentley had to do with a blown version of the same 6.7 litre V8 that did duty in Rollers and never made an engine after 1930's !! Now they live off W 12's from the VW stable. BTW even that W12 is two V6's of the Corrado series mated together ! The world's largest company mated two old V6's to make a W12 ! Economics at work!

What I am trying to say is its not a joke to design and build a brand new engine. It costs hundreds of millions of dollars.

What are the chances M&M or Tata's have designed stuff ground up? to justify calling their engine a totally brand new engine? REMOTE CHANCE !!

If the engine has a cast iron block its some old dog worked on and given a new face. If its brand new why is it not an aluminium block.

The economics don't work out guys.

A new car designed from ground up costs close to a billion dollars. I don't think any Indian company has the guts to sink that kind of money into a model they can't be sure will sell in millions to justify such expense. Just the reason why M&M decided to tango with Renault for the Logan. Sad they had a tough time to even market the car. BTW how many more cars will the fabulous multijet from Fiat do duty in? Looks like every hot hatch in India will eventually have a Fiat engine !!

Except for the Nano I can't think of anything which is completely a fresh slate design. But even there I guess some chopping of the Indica block may be a possibility

For all the monopoly PAL and HM enjoyed could they ever design an engine let alone a new car?

Giants like Daimler, Chrysler, Nissan and GM and so many others kept fusing companies to find economies of scale because its just not plain viable to design stuff exclusively for a car. You simply don't get the kind of volumes you need to justify a total redesign. Just within the VW group there's large scale component sharing between Audi, VW, Seat and Skoda to make it all viable

So lets not waste more time debating this issue because it really is highly unlikely that M&M designed a brand new block and opted for an outdated material ie cast iron for a brand new engine family !!

Having said this I do sincerely believe that Indian engineers are second to none and if given the mandate they can deliver a new engine family

Last edited by DKG : 18th February 2010 at 22:18.
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Old 18th February 2010, 22:06   #807
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Thunder View Post
^^^ Volume of cylinder = φrh

With bore 94 mm and stroke 90 mm

(22/7) * (94/2) * (94/2) * 90 = 624.83 cc (per cylinder)
624.83 * 4 = 2499 cc
Thanks for the formula! Does ring a bell somewhere.
However, the ?? remain!

Regards
Sutripta

(PS. BT, that was a fast edit)
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Old 18th February 2010, 22:25   #808
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Arrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
...
For a 2498cc engine.

If is Bore 94mm then obviously the stroke has to be 90mm

Only other way is to have Bore of 90mm and a Stroke of 94mm.

...
No, Arka.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
...However, the ?? remain!...
Ok, here goes,

With bore 90 mm and stroke 94 mm

(22/7) * (90/2) * (90/2) * 94 = 598.24 cc (per cylinder)
598.24* 4 = 2393 cc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
...(PS. BT, that was a fast edit)

Last edited by Blue Thunder : 18th February 2010 at 22:29.
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Old 18th February 2010, 22:58   #809
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Guys something for you all to chew on.
.....
Having said this I do sincerely believe that Indian engineers are second to none and if given the mandate they can deliver a new engine family
Hi DKG,
Saw your post after I had made mine. Edited mine to add my thoughts to what you had said, but ran over the 20 min time limit. Effort down the drain.

In short, I agree with what you state, except your blanket junking of CI.

I feel that MM should come out with a CATEGORICAL OFFICIAL statement saying "Our new engine, the NEF, is wholly an inhouse clean sheet design with nothing borrowed or adapted from any existing design". Because that is what is being implied. Otherwise it doesn't matter. For the record, I don't think it is based on the XD3. Just gutfeel.

Were the KOEL RET3 and RET4 copied/ adapted from any other design?

Your post can form the starting point of an interesting thread.

Know this is not the thread for it, but no one has any comments/ insights to the mHawk/ 2.2 Dicor.

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 18th February 2010, 23:03   #810
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Default Another Small Question

@ Spike: Why is the liner in the NEF Engines not a press fit ? And what is a wet liner? I thought all liners are surrounded by water jackets having water dummies

Also why is the peak torque band of the Storm engine so narrow 1800-2200 RPM and what is the redline of the engine. The tacho has no marking

Last edited by MileCruncher : 18th February 2010 at 23:05.
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