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Old 18th February 2010, 23:20   #811
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Thunder View Post
With bore 90 mm and stroke 94 mm

(22/7) * (90/2) * (90/2) * 94 = 598.24 cc (per cylinder)
598.24* 4 = 2393 cc


Ah. Now all is clear.

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Old 19th February 2010, 01:49   #812
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What a post, DKG! It rang a bell in my mind about an article that I had read some time back; been searching that for abt half an hour. Feel like worth sharing.

The Hindu : New diesels and `The Scorpio'

BTW, I've have read that the 2.2 dicor employs an aluminum head. Not sure about the block though; heard both versions.

Last edited by VINUMON : 19th February 2010 at 01:55.
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Old 19th February 2010, 02:50   #813
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DKG,

Very good post, puts things in the right perspective. Appreciate it.
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Old 19th February 2010, 07:04   #814
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MileCruncher View Post
Also why is the peak torque band of the Storm engine so narrow 1800-2200 RPM and what is the redline of the engine. The tacho has no marking
Press on it baby! - Guess the Storm redlines at 4600 RPM. Its definitely upwards of 4000-4200.

On the lighter side - There is no redline on the Tacho as you can't redline a Storm
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Old 19th February 2010, 07:39   #815
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MileCruncher View Post
@ Spike: Why is the liner in the NEF Engines not a press fit ? And what is a wet liner? I thought all liners are surrounded by water jackets having water dummies

Wet liner means the liner is in direct contact with the coolant/water in the water jacket. Liner is not surrounded by the block casting material. Wet liners are open deck engines.

Dry liner has engine block casting material supporting the liner from all sides. Liner doesn't come in direct contact with the coolant, instead its the engine block casting that comes in contact with the coolant. Liner has to be press fitted into the block.
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Old 19th February 2010, 08:18   #816
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
I agree with what you state, except your blanket junking of CI.
Sutripta I assume you mean Cast Iron for CI?

If so I have nothing against the material. So many of the worlds legendary engines were built using it. My inline 8 Packards are all CI and a virtual delight in refinement

But in the 30's mfgs started switching to aluminium pistons and heads and eventually blocks.

All I meant is when the whole world has switched to aluminium does it make sense for a present day mfg to opt for this material whose weight disadvantage has serious implications on fuel economy and handling?

Its a bit bewildering that engineers would opt for cast iron in a new engine family.

We all know the Tata's have stumped the engineering world with the Nano. But CI in engines today? Not very sure about it making sense.
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Old 19th February 2010, 11:11   #817
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DKG,
Very well put together thoughts. I am no engine expert and hence every convincing argument makes me think otherwise.

Your point is very well taken that designing an all new engine is a bit feat! I also believe that certain inherent characteristics of a successful engine can be used to build the base but calling it a CDRI'ed version of an old engine would be a mistake in my opinion. Enough and more changes have happened to justify enough to call it new!

Aluminum isnt the best of the materials. CI has it advantages and the biggest of them being it is cheaper and easier to manufacture it. If you see the percentage of aluminum in M&M engines have increased over the years. The latest 2.2 M hawk is an example. The choice of material depends upon volumes the vehicle is likely to do and the cost at which manufacturer wants the vehicle to be offered to public

M&M engines surely have been an evolution of their past engines (common that's how every body learns) but at this stage say with 2.2 Mhawk or even current much more improvised CRde 2.5/2.6 it wouldn't be justified to plainly call it CRDied version of a 1970's engine IMO.

p.s- The current 2.2 Dicor and the 2.2 M hawk both displace identical displacements 2179cc, run twin cam shafts and have almost identical weights, power and torque ratings and has been developed by AVL Austria in association with the respective manufacturers. So, do you guys think they both are same design and based on peugeot 2.1 litre block?

Last edited by vinod_nookala : 19th February 2010 at 11:24.
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Old 19th February 2010, 11:19   #818
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Is the 2.2 MHawk an all aluminium construction or is it an iron block with aluminium head?
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Old 19th February 2010, 11:20   #819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Hi Arka, i have some pictures for you, the pictures are arranged in the following order 1. Piston NEF 2. Block XD3p 3. Block NEF 4. Crankshaft Xd3P 5. Crankshaft NEF 6. Piston XD3P 7. Conrod XD3P 8. Conrod NEF
@Dear Fellow BHPians there are many more things which i cannot disclose in this forum, hope these pictures must have given you the answer for the ongoing debate.

Spike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Thunder View Post

With bore 90 mm and stroke 94 mm

(22/7) * (90/2) * (90/2) * 94 = 598.24 cc (per cylinder)
598.24* 4 = 2393 cc
Hi Guys,

@ SPIKE Thanks for showing the pics, what about the oil cooler and the minimum lubrication specs I had asked before.


@ Blue_Thunder and Sutripta thanks for correcting me and conforming that for 2498cc 4 cyl. with a 94mm bore the stroke has to 90mm; and even if we inter-change the bore or stroke the displacement will change.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 19th February 2010, 11:47   #820
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
All I meant is when the whole world has switched to aluminium does it make sense for a present day mfg to opt for this material whose weight disadvantage has serious implications on fuel economy and handling?


Quote:
Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post
Aluminum isnt the best of the materials. CI has it advantages and the biggest of them being it is cheaper and easier to manufacture it.

Aluminium is a great material if sufficiently treated to withstand the internal stresses that a Diesel Engine has to offer. But the cost of manufacture goes up and one needs volumes to justify that!

And NOT all engines can have aluminium blocks.
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Old 19th February 2010, 11:53   #821
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Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post
And NOT all engines can have aluminium blocks.
Of the new CRDi diesels made by Fiat,Merc, BMW,VW, Toyota and Nissan which engine doing duty in cars or SUV's has a cast iron block? I was under the impression, and I could be totally wrong, that none of the modern diesels are based on cast iron blocks.

Last edited by DKG : 19th February 2010 at 12:02.
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Old 19th February 2010, 11:54   #822
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Gurus, probably a dumb question, but do they make diesels with Aluminum blocks?

And wasnt' the Indica (v1) engine in house design from Tatas?
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Old 19th February 2010, 12:18   #823
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Of the new CRDi diesels made by Fiat,Merc, BMW,VW, Toyota and Nissan which engine doing duty in cars or SUV's has a cast iron block? I was under the impression, and I could be totally wrong, that none of the modern diesels are based on cast iron blocks.
One other reason why the World is switching over to Al is POLLUTION

And Deepak, You are not talking Rhino, Ambassador..get the drift


CI pollution treatment is more cumbersome than Al.
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Old 19th February 2010, 12:41   #824
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR View Post
Gurus, probably a dumb question, but do they make diesels with Aluminum blocks?

And wasnt' the Indica (v1) engine in house design from Tatas?
TATAs are more indigenous and they try to be. but all they could manage till BSII and tried their best for BSIII. did not succeed much hence they have to approach the technology providers or partners to proceed. Here M&M was smart enough to know the consequences prior to others. compare the indica dicor 1.4 enigine with the fiat MJD engine and you will notice how different they are. the dicor engine looks like it is fully messed up. which i meant the placement of egr, intercooler, turbo and their connections and lot more things. you can make out it is an in house design.

NEF is the term used by IVECO of FIAT group when they totally rebuilt the engines with latest technology for EU4, EU5 and US EPA 10. Same term is used by M&M.
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Old 19th February 2010, 13:30   #825
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I still cant understand this engine debate, what's the big issue? Whatever be the engine, will they reduce the price of the Thar, if its not NEF? Will they offer a cheaper engine option?

I guess not

At the end of the day its a niche seller's market, the Thar.
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